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Heroes Community > Heroes 6 - The New Beginning > Thread: ~ Heroes 6 - Discussion thread ~
Thread: ~ Heroes 6 - Discussion thread ~ This Super Thread is 525 pages long: 1 70 140 210 280 350 420 ... 476 477 478 479 480 ... 490 525 · «PREV / NEXT»
MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted August 20, 2011 12:19 PM

Anyone got any idea when Age of Heroes is going to start a page for this installment?

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vicheron
vicheron


Known Hero
posted August 20, 2011 01:02 PM

Quote:
I like cool-downs. It was great addition in King's bounty: The Legend, and heroes 6 benefit from using that system (in my opinion of course).


What are you talking about? The spells in King's Bounty don't have cooldowns, only creature abilities had cooldowns.

Anyway, the cooldowns are pointless because mana costs are so high. Even if you wanted to cast a spell multiple times, you won't be able to. Not to mention the fact that cooldowns mean nothing for some spells like haste, which you aren't going to be casting every round anyway.

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Cepheus
Cepheus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
posted August 20, 2011 01:26 PM

Quote:
Anyone got any idea when Age of Heroes is going to start a page for this installment?


Whenever.
____________
"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII

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SoilBurn
SoilBurn


Known Hero
BurnsSoil
posted August 20, 2011 03:15 PM

I agree with the people in favor of cooldowns. I think that - with proper balancing - cooldowns actually encourage magic heroes to have a balanced portfolio of at least 3-4 spells that they use regularly. Which is better than spamming the same spell over and over again and furthers tactical choices.

Now, what I do not like, is offering every hero access to Regeneration/Heal and Ice Bolt/Agony/Storm Arrows without any restrictions, e.g. number of magic skill trees they can tap into. As much as I like the new resurrection spells in general, building a hero in Heroes 6 has become a cherry picking skillfest.

@OmegaDestroyer: Posts like "The whole spell system is a mistake" or "Healing spells should be taken completely out of the game" are not really constructive. But I guess you know that.


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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted August 20, 2011 05:23 PM

I can see the point with cooldowns, even if I'm not particular in favor of them, but if you have a cooldown of 3 rounds and you find that doesn't work, you clearly have a problem, and increasing cooldown to 4 rounds is not gonna solve it. If people can work around a 3 round cooldown, they can work around a 4 round one also, all it'll do is prolong battles pointlessly, which is bad for gameplay.
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What will happen now?

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Jabanoss
Jabanoss


Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
posted August 20, 2011 05:29 PM
Edited by Jabanoss at 17:31, 20 Aug 2011.

I also see the point with cooldowns, I just find it silly when game developers think that:
"Hey, how do we stop people form using the same spells over and over again??"
"Well of course, we just add cooldowns and be done with it!!"


Besides, the one spell you spam all over again and again is Petrification and that one doesn't have cooldown.
____________
"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe

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vicheron
vicheron


Known Hero
posted August 21, 2011 12:48 AM

The problem is that cooldowns causes the problem of offensive spells to become even worse than previous games. People have often complained about offensive spells becoming too weak later in the game since it doesn't scale fast enough compared to the size of the army.

Well, in Heroes 6, offensive spell damage scales even slower. Now that mana costs are so high and there are cooldowns, there's almost no reason to have offensive spells at all.

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OmegaDestroyer
OmegaDestroyer

Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
posted August 21, 2011 02:17 AM
Edited by OmegaDestroyer at 02:42, 21 Aug 2011.

Quote:
@OmegaDestroyer: Posts like "The whole spell system is a mistake" or "Healing spells should be taken completely out of the game" are not really constructive. But I guess you know that.




Since you are a stickler for "constructive" posting, I'll elaborate.  Picking spells as if they are abilities, really harms spell casters.  They are forced to waste valuable skill points on spells.  Even worse, those spells come with a 3-4 turn cooldown.  Essentially you are picking an ability that maybe used once or twice a battle.  Contrast that with someone who picks Destiny or Defense.  Once the hero has those skills, the benefit is constant and not +1 luck or +1 defense every 4 turns.  It's even worse when you look at the pathetic attack spells that, in addition to the 3-4 turn cooldown, also deal less damage than the heroe's attack.

As to the healing spells, players are pretty much forced to waste their early skill points taking a healing spell to mitigate troop losses.  It forces you to take a defensive approach right out of the gate.  Even worse, giving three factions early healing units while giving the remaining two factions nothing is a foolish decision.  It gimps those factions's early game and creeping abilities, futher forcing them to pick a once-in-3(/4)-turns spell early on.

Thanks for the unprovoked swipe, SoilBurn.  It would have been enough to say you disagree with me because you think cooldowns are good, but you went the extra mile and made it personal.  

Talk about unconstructive posting.

____________
The giant has awakened
You drink my blood and drown
Wrath and raving I will not stop
You'll never take me down

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted August 21, 2011 08:51 AM

Quote:
I also see the point with cooldowns, I just find it silly when game developers think that:
"Hey, how do we stop people form using the same spells over and over again??"
"Well of course, we just add cooldowns and be done with it!!"

That's why I don't like cooldowns.
____________
What will happen now?

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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted August 21, 2011 10:29 AM

Quote:
They are forced to waste valuable skill points on spells.  Even worse, those spells come with a 3-4 turn cooldown.  Essentially you are picking an ability that maybe used once or twice a battle.  Contrast that with someone who picks Destiny or Defense.  Once the hero has those skills, the benefit is constant and not +1 luck or +1 defense every 4 turns.  It's even worse when you look at the pathetic attack spells that, in addition to the 3-4 turn cooldown, also deal less damage than the heroe's attack.
I wholeheartedly agree that the direct-damage spells are nigh useless at the moment and need a serious scaling improvement (this includes the racials - for example the Inferno Blood Magic hero ultimate, Armageddon or whatever, deals pathetic damage and can be used only once per battle so it's as good as useless) but regarding the rest, I think their logic is somewhat different. The Might and the Magic hero differ from what we are used to. The Magic hero essentially improves the magic attacks of the creature which don't deal "physical" damage (Glories, Succubi, Fate Spinners in spider form, etc.) and globally improves the Magic defense of the entire army while the Might hero improves predominantly the Might attack and defense. So in a way they are both "Might" heroes when it comes to boosting certain raw stats of the creatures unlike before when the mages were considerably inferior in this regard. Given this, the only major difference between the two types of heroes is that the Might skills do not consume spell points while the Magic ones do. Hence - there should be some compensation for this and generally a high level spell should be somewhat superior to a high level Might skill which is not necessarily true. But if we add the fact that many of the skills/spells are available to the opposite class, such comparisons become somewhat irrelevant.

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DoubleDeck
DoubleDeck


Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
posted August 21, 2011 10:36 AM

What version of the beta is the Heroes VI demo?

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SoilBurn
SoilBurn


Known Hero
BurnsSoil
posted August 21, 2011 10:44 AM

Quote:
Since you are a stickler for "constructive" posting, I'll elaborate.
That's more like it
Quote:
Picking spells as if they are abilities, really harms spell casters.  They are forced to waste valuable skill points on spells.  Even worse, those spells come with a 3-4 turn cooldown.  Essentially you are picking an ability that maybe used once or twice a battle.  Contrast that with someone who picks Destiny or Defense.  Once the hero has those skills, the benefit is constant and not +1 luck or +1 defense every 4 turns.
But wouldn't the problem be solved if they restrict the (number of) skill trees a hero of a certain faction is allowed to choose? To do that, they just need to group the non-magic skills differenty (e.g. divide up the Warcries)and come up with allowed patterns (maybe faction-specific). The resulting formations would be similar to "Nobility" or "Defense".
Assuming the above, I don't see how cooldowns on spells (or Warcries) influence the skill system in a negative way. They are not the root of the problem.

As many of the current skills indeed give passive bonuses (+1 Might Defense, Destiny, etc.), I do not get that part of your argumentation.
Quote:
It's even worse when you look at the pathetic attack spells that, in addition to the 3-4 turn cooldown, also deal less damage than the heroe's attack.
Agreed. Offensive spells are overall weak, and it does not appear to be simply a balancing issue.
Quote:
As to the healing spells, players are pretty much forced to waste their early skill points taking a healing spell to mitigate troop losses.  It forces you to take a defensive approach right out of the gate.  Even worse, giving three factions early healing units while giving the remaining two factions nothing is a foolish decision.  It gimps those factions's early game and creeping abilities, futher forcing them to pick a once-in-3(/4)-turns spell early on.
I see nothing wrong with defensive strategies in general. I would like to separate the 2 issues you are touching here, "healer" units and healing spells:
I find that the Healers play right into the combat strategies of their respective factions (esp. Haven and Sanctuary). But are they necessary for a faction to be considered overpowered? Hardly, as Stronghold proves emphatically.

On the other hand we have the Healing spells. Here, I wholeheartedly agree with you. Forcing every hero to pick certain skills (regardless of what those are!) is a big pile of steaming nonsense. But that is not a problem of the healing spells, but rather of the unrestricted skill system.
Quote:
Thanks for the unprovoked swipe, SoilBurn.  It would have been enough to say you disagree with me because you think cooldowns are good, but you went the extra mile and made it personal.  
Talk about unconstructive posting.
What is so personal about "one-liners are not very constructive"? In order to disagree with you I need to hear your opinion first, right?
Don't take my comment wrong pal. I'm happy that you took the time to elaborate.

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Fang
Fang


Hired Hero
posted August 21, 2011 06:35 PM

Alignement abilties

I played the demo and it seems that the neutral abilties remain always accessable regardless of the blood and tears alignment you are.

Also, in the begining if you choose a blood or tears ability, can you use them? Since you start as a neutral at the begining or lvl 1?

Can anyone elaborate?
____________

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted August 21, 2011 06:46 PM

You can use any ability but the ones from your path will be stronger compared to the rest. Check my thread on might&magic abilities, it may explain a few things.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb

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Nelgirith
Nelgirith


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted August 21, 2011 06:50 PM

Quote:
What version of the beta is the Heroes VI demo?

It's based on the 1.02 we had before they stopped the first phase. Same build except that there's no other campaign maps than Slava's iirc.


Quote:
I played the demo and it seems that the neutral abilties remain always accessable regardless of the blood and tears alignment you are.

Also, in the begining if you choose a blood or tears ability, can you use them? Since you start as a neutral at the begining or lvl 1?

Can anyone elaborate?

The heroes you create at level 30 are only for Duels (and maybe for some unveiled online mode), but if you use a hero in any non-duel game, they will be level 1 and have the Dynasty Weapon you assigned them (if you did and if they're allowed). You can pick any rep choice you want in normal games - even if you created your hero as blood, you can still play and go tears.

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Dave_Jame
Dave_Jame


Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
posted August 21, 2011 08:47 PM
Edited by Dave_Jame at 20:50, 21 Aug 2011.

So, I have been playin the Demo for the last two days and I have noticed some things.

Core-vs-Elite-vs-Champion. The core unites in total seem much stronger. I hope this is just because the Desgne of BA.

Skills. As I Feared it tends to create common "bilds"

Creature growth: Maybe I am to stupid to finde the Kingdom overwiev button but I would love to see the numbers of my creature growth. It seams I get a Random number that I often can't trace back. I would realy like to see where did which number came from.

The map itself doesn't feel empty, but repetiv. I just feal like visiting the same objects over and over agein. and I really miss the tresuries. Hope thay will make it into the final game.

Most of the Time I have the fealing of having to much money, eventhough the gold mines only give 500 GPD. But then again, I dinit have this feeling in the last game, so it just might by conected to the artefacts /sidenote, I love the "Golden egg"/

Why can't my secondary heroes earn tears/Blood points? Why? I cant have two heroes whith a reputation?

Is it just me? or are the summon Elemental spells useless?

But These are just Trivial things. In general I am very pleased whith the game nad most of its aspects. I was surprised how easily I got used to the area of control and Conversion. But I would still prefer if the conversion would take several days, and was not an instant. Also Repuration is a nice adition.
What I like most about the game is "Fast AI turns" and that it has the  "One more turn and I go to bed" syndrom. The first day I was playing it, I went to bed at 4:45 in the morning.
____________
I'm just a Mirror of your self.

We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted August 21, 2011 08:54 PM

Amusingly enough cores fall easily in the duels though I believe that is because the analogies are not right, champions for one are too many.

Secondaries cannot earn reputation points unless the map is specifically designed that way. Only the avatar, your main hero can choose a path.

Summon elementals is actually pretty useful though I'm not sure broken alliance is the right map for it. I mean you can rusn an opponent as early as week 2, you wouldn't even get to lvl 15.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb

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julle
julle


Adventuring Hero
Simply FABULOUS!
posted August 21, 2011 10:00 PM

What does the golden egg do again?

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Dave_Jame
Dave_Jame


Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
posted August 21, 2011 10:02 PM
Edited by Dave_Jame at 22:06, 21 Aug 2011.

I do think most of this isues are caused by the layout of BA, so different maps can create different situations.

I do not call a Rush a situation, where I leav my homeland because I do not have anything to do in it (Eventhough, its week 2 or 3), my Top level on the map is about 16-17 so this is clearly not a map where Sum. El. is really usefull.

But I just play the Demo whit only one map. The thing I take from it is not a complex knowladge of the game, but a general feeling that is good.

But one last question. Why does the AI not guard its castles? Portals are accesable for all so why does it not use them for defence. I think I did nota have more then 5 sieges in the 4 games I have played (except for the fort combats ageinst elementals)

edit:
Quote:
What does the golden egg do again?

Well, nothing. But If you carry it in your pocket for some time, it hatches into a nice golden goose, and she gives you a 2000GpD. But I just like the Idea of an egg that turns into a golden goose
____________
I'm just a Mirror of your self.

We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.

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julle
julle


Adventuring Hero
Simply FABULOUS!
posted August 21, 2011 10:14 PM

Quote:
edit:
Quote:
What does the golden egg do again?

Well, nothing. But If you carry it in your pocket for some time, it hatches into a nice golden goose, and she gives you a 2000GpD. But I just like the Idea of an egg that turns into a golden goose


Damn it! Shouldn't have asked, now it's ruined XD

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