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Heroes Community > Heroes 6 - The New Beginning > Thread: ~ Heroes 6 - Discussion thread ~
Thread: ~ Heroes 6 - Discussion thread ~ [ This thread is 525 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360 361 362 363 364 365 366 367 368 369 370 371 372 373 374 375 376 377 378 379 380 381 382 383 384 385 386 387 388 389 390 391 392 393 394 395 396 397 398 399 400 401 402 403 404 405 406 407 408 409 410 411 412 413 414 415 416 417 418 419 420 421 422 423 424 425 426 427 428 429 430 431 432 433 434 435 436 437 438 439 440 441 442 443 444 445 446 447 448 449 450 451 452 453 454 455 456 457 458 459 460 461 462 463 464 465 466 467 468 469 470 471 472 473 474 475 476 477 478 479 480 481 482 483 484 485 486 487 488 489 490 491 492 493 494 495 496 497 498 499 500 501 502 503 504 (505) 506 507 508 509 510 511 512 513 514 515 516 517 518 519 520 521 522 523 524 525 ]
Elvin
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted September 29, 2011 07:51 AM

Just because your plot demands it That's one suspension of disbelief after another.
____________
I gotta say I'm starting to feel
a bit elitist now that the qp
starts to sink into my
subconscius.
- Veco

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kodial79
kodial79


Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
posted September 29, 2011 09:55 AM

@Cepheus, the community might have known it but people outside of it, like me back then, didn't. I just facepalmed when I saw Raelag for the first time. So I don't know what you've been told but to me, it presented itself as a plot twist albeit a failed one.

Anyway, this wasn't the only one. That Shadya was Biara was another, that Beatrice was Biara was another, etc. etc. What good is a twist without the ability to write a good story?



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Avirosb
Avirosb


Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
posted September 29, 2011 10:12 AM

Beatrice was a creep, of course she'd turn out to be evil.

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Cepheus
Cepheus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
posted September 29, 2011 10:50 AM
Edited by Cepheus at 11:05, 29 Sep 2011.

Of course higher-quality storytelling, writing and execution is first priority before anything else, I don't disagree one bit. But if it turns out that Kha-Beleth is just another demon with no backstory, who just happens to be unbelievably powerful, I call that horrible because it's a failure to capitalise on interesting material for a plot (much like having the red-eyed Isabel from the H5 ending turn out to be Biara in disguise in HoF was such a failure in my eyes, rather than having Isabel being genuinely corrupted and letting the story stem from that).

I guess a simple "twist" is an incorrect term to use: more like a "change in dynamics" is part of what I'm interested in from the story. Nothing nearly as serious as the Reckoning, but you know, something less self-contained and more than "happily ever after, nothing of note has happened". I really don't consider thin anagrams up-to-scratch, but you may disagree.

But as for twists, an incredible yet small suggestion once mentioned by Vicheron, which could've improved the H5 plot astronomically and helped lobotomise the dreadful "romance" between Isabel and Agrael, was this:

Quote:
As for the whole good vs. evil thing. There's nothing wrong with a villain who's pure evil as long as they're well written. For example, they could have made Raelag an evil power hungry character who only helped the good guys to further his own goals. They could have easily made it so that it was always Raelag/Agrael's plan to overthrow the Sovereign and take over the demons. The Sovereign knew of Raelag/Agrael's ambitions so he strikes first. Raelag/Agrael gets the demon magic purged so that the Sovereign can no longer track him. Then he helps the good guys save Isabel so he could later take the Dark Messiah as his apprentice and use him to overthrow the Demon Sovereign.


Having Agrael reveal such ambitions would've been my idea of a valid twist, but instead he simply fell into the category of "good guys" with no depth by the end of the story.

Quote:
why wouldn't Sar-Elam destroy the prison that he created himself?


Maybe because there is no conventional way to simply reverse his spell and stop Sheogh from existing. I mean, how do you "reverse" a Fireball spell? Can you "reverse" an earthquake?
____________
"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII

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Elvin
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted September 29, 2011 10:59 AM

Blargh. Don't remind me the way Raelag evolved
____________
I gotta say I'm starting to feel
a bit elitist now that the qp
starts to sink into my
subconscius.
- Veco

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Wckey
Wckey


Famous Hero
posted September 29, 2011 11:46 AM

Raelag/Agrael was a plot twist? I thought that it was intentional to make people know at the first sight that Raelag was Agrael.
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Come back soon, Elvin!

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kodial79
kodial79


Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
posted September 29, 2011 11:58 AM

Kha-Beleth doesn't have to be anyone else than Kha-Beleth. Given a good backstory of how he rose to power through the ranks of Sheogh, is sufficient for me. But I just can't emphasize enough the GOOD of the good backstory part.

However, if they just come up and tell us, "hey, it's actually Sar-Elam!" that's just.. meh.

Vicheron's got a nice touch on Raelag. I would have liked it too, to see him played out like that. Markal was like that too, well a bit. He disguised himself as a good guy, and used the good guys for his own scheme. But still, he was perhaps the most badly written character.

General guidelines and concept of a plot, aren't enough either. I could come up with a great concept too but in the end, the story would have been a joke cause I'm no writer. What I mean to say is that in Heroes 5's case especially with the amount of talent involved in the story making, whatever they were going to do, it would not help them.

Personally, I preffer it if there's no "Black vs. White" themes involved. Wether they are "Good vs. Evil" or "Order vs. Chaos", whatever. Or at least, if there have to be such themes, make them as blurred as possible.

There is some hope to escape the "evil Demons" cliche now that Kiril leads them, but we're just falling to another "Order vs. Chaos", which is more of the same. If Sar-Elam turns out to be Kha-Beleth, this theme becomes the central and dominating plot device.

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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted September 29, 2011 12:28 PM
Edited by Zenofex at 12:30, 29 Sep 2011.

Quote:
Maybe because there is no conventional way to simply reverse his spell and stop Sheogh from existing.
That is an option but a very cheap one. Apart from being completely un-interesting, it doesn't even sound logical. The "imprisonment spell" is something that is created to persist and hence something that exists continuously, including at the moment(s) when the plot takes place. The flaw with the sun eclipses proves that it is not some insuperable barrier that, once created, will cease to exist at the end of the universe and no sooner than that but something similar to an engine. Therefore - it can be destroyed (dispelled). It makes no sense to have the person who cast the spell on the side of its "victims" but to say that he can not reverse it. It is no believable, i.e. it's artificial, i.e. it's not a good way to move the story forward.

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Nelgirith
Nelgirith


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted September 29, 2011 02:02 PM
Edited by alcibiades at 15:38, 29 Sep 2011.

Gotta love when someone tries to be pragmatic when talking about something "magic".

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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted September 29, 2011 02:30 PM
Edited by Zenofex at 14:34, 29 Sep 2011.

Well, you already have a generic fantasy crap which makes little sense so I guess it's fine for you as it is.
As for me, I could say that you've gotta love when someone reads "magic" as "ridiculous".

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Sorts
Sorts


Hired Hero
posted September 29, 2011 03:44 PM

I usualy dislike the explanation a wizard did it, or any other what just says its because magic and no other explanaiton is given. In most fantasy settings there are more and less defined rules of magic, often defining the workings of magic and both it's limits and possibilities. So yeah, you can take magic almost as (weird) science, but you can also go with the usual ability of causing stuff and plot devices, since both are actualy plausible options, althrough last one is lazier.

So you could bring up at least dozen reasons why a magic barrier can't be broken by its creator, and even make a good plotline or story out of it.

Coming back to Kha-Beleth. I actualy agree with kodial79 on the fact that he might be who ever. Maybe he is Sar-Elam or some twisted clone of him, maybe he is a personification of the saner parts of Urgash's minds, maybe even he is the old series Sandro! In some way he is even better as a mysterious demon lord, with no known past (althrough a part of mine still wants to find out who he is ).

Actualy the whole Sar-Elam theroy comes out of Jeddites bio, which at most might be nothing more than a reference of his original HoMM III bio, where was mentioned that he is only one who has seen Zenofex's (or was it Xenofex?) face. The only second hint that is there, is that his name has a bit Seven Cities style on it.
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DoubleDeck
DoubleDeck


Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
posted September 30, 2011 02:06 AM

Guys, guys, guys, Sar-Elam is DEAD! He destroyed himself, he is no longer! After his death, he had his disciples split their path, with the creation of Blind Brothers, the Dragon Knights and Sar-Shazzar starting up the Seven Cities. So let's move on from this.

There were 6 demon overlords before Kha-Beleth so what about them?


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kodial79
kodial79


Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
posted September 30, 2011 04:38 AM

Speaking of them, is there anywhere to read their names and what each of them represents? I never got them altogether in one piece of text.

Anyway, Kha-Beleth is not one of them, since he had to bring them down so he can rise up.

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Nelgirith
Nelgirith


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted September 30, 2011 04:42 AM

Quote:
Speaking of them, is there anywhere to read their names and what each of them represents? I never got them altogether in one piece of text.

Anyway, Kha-Beleth is not one of them, since he had to bring them down so he can rise up.


Just read the Inferno creatures descriptions. They're all quoted there

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Cepheus
Cepheus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
posted September 30, 2011 05:14 AM
Edited by Cepheus at 05:16, 30 Sep 2011.

Quote:
Guys, guys, guys, Sar-Elam is DEAD! He destroyed himself, he is no longer! After his death, he had his disciples split their path, with the creation of Blind Brothers, the Dragon Knights and Sar-Shazzar starting up the Seven Cities. So let's move on from this.


And if Sar-Elam were in fact Kha-Beleth, or if there were any sort of internal plan for a plot twist to reveal that his soul became Kha-Beleth over 400 years, did you really think the H5 timeline from 2005 was going to immediately tell you this outright?

According to Enroth's timeline, the Ancients deliberately abandoned the planet after the Silence out of sheer disappointment, and the people of Axeoth were spawned by a magical seed from a giant spacebound flower according to their timeline. Point being: "the facts" are purposefully vague since there's a precedent for history in the Might and Magic series to be played around with over various games if/when it needs to be.

Quote:
Speaking of them, is there anywhere to read their names and what each of them represents?


Ur-Hekal: Demon Overlord of Hate
Ur-Aazheel: Demon Overlord of Proliferation
Ur-Jubaal: Demon Overlord of Madness
Ur-Traggal: Demon Overlord of Pain
Ur-Khrag: Demon Overlord of Destruction
Ur-Vomoch: Demon Overlord of Voracity

There are some errors on the H6 website, but the above are the real ones.
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"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII

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kodial79
kodial79


Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
posted September 30, 2011 05:42 AM

Quote:

Ur-Hekal: Demon Overlord of Hate
Ur-Aazheel: Demon Overlord of Proliferation
Ur-Jubaal: Demon Overlord of Madness
Ur-Traggal: Demon Overlord of Pain
Ur-Khrag: Demon Overlord of Destruction
Ur-Vomoch: Demon Overlord of Voracity

There are some errors on the H6 website, but the above are the real ones.


Nice! Thanks, Cepheus!
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kodial79
kodial79


Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
posted September 30, 2011 05:47 AM

Quote:

Ur-Hekal: Demon Overlord of Hate
Ur-Aazheel: Demon Overlord of Proliferation
Ur-Jubaal: Demon Overlord of Madness
Ur-Traggal: Demon Overlord of Pain
Ur-Khrag: Demon Overlord of Destruction
Ur-Vomoch: Demon Overlord of Voracity

There are some errors on the H6 website, but the above are the real ones.


Nice! Thanks, Cepheus!
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Mitzah
Mitzah


Promising
Supreme Hero
of the Horadrim
posted September 30, 2011 06:04 AM

Quote:
@Mitzah

For the first part I don't know, for the second, Irina said that they will tell something about town screens later in this week...


Guess not since today's friday. If the news is so important that will please everyone, why are they waiting for so long? I mean the game will be released in less than 2 weeks.
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Give a man a fish,and you'll feed him for a day.
Give him a religion,and he will starve to death while praying for a fish.

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Gweret
Gweret


Adventuring Hero
posted September 30, 2011 06:10 AM

@Mitzah

Irina said later In THIS week they will tell us something about town screens. So, we will see today or not.

They are waiting because:
- they don't have anything to show.
- because everything is planed at some date.

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kodial79
kodial79


Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
posted September 30, 2011 06:23 AM
Edited by kodial79 at 06:26, 30 Sep 2011.

They have something to show because it is the insiders that first said that there is something that will please everyone, not the developers.

However I am a bit skeptical about this. The only thing that could please everyone is fixing the Town Screens. But:

1) Their fixing is just stretching them to a bigger window or even full screen. I'm still as disappointed as ever. They're not interactive, not all of the buildings show up, and have the least buildings since the old games in the city plan. Plus the current town screen images suck.

2) Stretching it to full screen and make it interactive. Make what interactive? All the buildings that you actually visit (Hall of Heroes, Creature duellings, etc.) do not appear on the town screens.

3) Full screen, interactive, all buildings appear. Good, we're getting there BUT they are still the WORST town screens to date, simply because they lack classic favorites such as thieves guild, blacksmith, magic guilds etc. Now they're just tolerable but not in the least bit pleasant, not at all!

4) Full screen, interactive, all buildings appear, classic favorite buildings return. Perfect! But... impossible? That would require huge amounts of change to the gameplay, the time they got is simply not enough.

Whichever of the above is the so called news that will please everybody (if it's about town screens at all), will still be only last minute changes and additions. And as we all know, they are never any good. If anything, they make the game look worse. Example? Armageddon's Blade and its miserable Conflux.


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