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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted August 24, 2011 04:31 PM |
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Edited by markkur at 16:32, 24 Aug 2011.
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I generally see a lot of games that seem to focus on graphics and "exciting" features instead of investing in a halfway decent AI.
Instead, they just give it insane advantages.
True, even HoMM5 hit that mark to some degree. Awesome Visual with lame A.I. "Q's 5.5" is already a grand improvement and he's still at work on the end-stage!
{{{Yes folks he is still in the lab. This is a huge undertaking.}}}
Quote:
I recently played a lot of Civ V and I was just baffled by the AI's ineptitude in battle and unit handling in general.
You can even let the AI take over for you for things like scouting
and worker assignments... only it sucks at it.
To me, Rome TW...was the same salad just a different dressing. This is why the work that Q is doing is so important. (I'm guessing here) It was probably experience just like you described that inspired him to take up this effort in the first place.
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Selvaria
Tavern Dweller
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posted August 27, 2011 01:16 AM |
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"Q's 5.5" is already a grand improvement and he's still at work on the end-stage!
Can't wait until the finished product launch! Definitely one of the best mod ever.
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To me, Rome TW...was the same salad just a different dressing.
Now if Creative Assembly could gather the top 20 AI programmer in the world to make another total war game.... instead of hiring another artist and gimping up the graphics, like what they did to Shogun 2, horrendously slow loading time by trying to load up all the eye candy textures.
I'd rather use those wasted loading time to wait for the AI to think and run its algorithm, tbh.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted August 27, 2011 03:05 AM |
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Quote:
Can't wait until the finished product launch! Definitely one of the best mod ever.
I have been creating/testing a 5-player "Huge" map with underground. I have lots of resource-draining effects going on around the map and yet the A.I. turns zip right along like fine clock-work! Before our Dear Wizard joined HC, I had made a Impossible (one-level) based on the Map of Middle-Earth and was broken-hearted that it was truly unplayable. It was only "after" using Q's 5.5 that I could run that map and then that I got my first understanding of how much his work excels! <IMO> Every gaming production team out there needs a man like him in the mix.
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"Do your own research"
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Stemo
Tavern Dweller
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posted August 28, 2011 12:23 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Can't wait until the finished product launch! Definitely one of the best mod ever.
I have been creating/testing a 5-player "Huge" map with underground. I have lots of resource-draining effects going on around the map and yet the A.I. turns zip right along like fine clock-work! Before our Dear Wizard joined HC, I had made a Impossible (one-level) based on the Map of Middle-Earth and was broken-hearted that it was truly unplayable. It was only "after" using Q's 5.5 that I could run that map and then that I got my first understanding of how much his work excels! <IMO> Every gaming production team out there needs a man like him in the mix.
Hello all,
So what is the situation? We are expecting fix or update for Q 5.5 and then everything will be ok ? So this patch is only for faster "End of turn AI" ?
Thanks for the info.
Keep the good job!
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted August 28, 2011 03:34 PM |
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So what is the situation?
Have you went here? E.E. 5.5 Site
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We are expecting fix or update for Q 5.5 and then everything will be ok ? So this patch is only for faster "End of turn AI" ?
"Q" is still in his lab. I doubt I have a full understanding of this effort but I believe it will include "how the A.I. handles 2 (maybe multiple) Heroes and all of the possible map-objects". With the old game, there was usually just one decent A.I. Hero (if you're lucky)and many sites (e.g. treasure-buildings) were for human-players only.
I would imagine that; making a Hero utilize all available paths on an adventure map (as we would) would alone be difficult work. Now add in the multiple pathways of more than one Hero and the varied startegy choices that are possible and <imo> flow-charts would quickly start looking like; Road-maps with Interstates, Highways and all the local back-roads included.
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"Do your own research"
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Selvaria
Tavern Dweller
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posted September 12, 2011 02:55 AM |
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I just noticed something. The AI had just captured one of my castle, and I recapture it straight away. Apparently the AI build 2 buildings in the same turn!
Is this intentional? It was on hard difficulty, heroic lookahead.
Also, the AI seemed to have unlimited resources, I watch my ally build all buildings in his main base while obviously I know he could not possibly afford it since I watched him all the time.
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rpgyay
Known Hero
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posted September 12, 2011 06:47 AM |
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It could be that there was a conflict with a mod.
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Selvaria
Tavern Dweller
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posted September 13, 2011 08:23 AM |
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Edited by Selvaria at 13:11, 13 Sep 2011.
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Nope, never installed any other mod. Also, did the AI still cheats on hard difficulty and above? I noticed my allied AI build every turn and recruit every units every week when they obviously have not enough resources. They don't prioritize building city hall/capitol either.
It was kinda glaring like in the map "treasure hunter" I just played, I obviously flagged all the gold mines in the middle and had 3x more flagged mines than my ally, yet he finishes building all upgraded creature buildings while I don't have enough resources yet. Apparently he builds every single turn disregarding resources. I had the equal starting resources option on btw.
On an unrelated note, can someone tell me how to clear fog of war? Even with debug_open exe the fog is still there.
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rpgyay
Known Hero
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posted September 14, 2011 12:25 AM |
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Edited by rpgyay at 00:26, 14 Sep 2011.
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Hmm the only thing I can think of is this:
Quote:
My advice to get to a cleanly running setup:
1. Remove all savegames from 3.1.8 and all savegames after 3.1.8 was installed, even if these are from 3.1c. The reason is, they can import a corrupted game state again.
2. Do a complete uninstall.
3. Make sure that all the folders in the Program Files/Ubisoft/Heroes of Might and Magic V – Tribes of the East/bin are empty (better delete these)
4. On Win7 you also need to clean Users/*/AppData/Local/VirtualStore/Program Files (x86)/Ubisoft/Heroes of Might and Magic V - Tribes of the East. Win7 keeps virtual copies there, for everything changed w/o admin rights (total idiocy the security design of Win7).
5. Clean your Users/*/Documents/My Games/Heroes of Might and Magic V - Tribes of the East/Profiles. Store your savegames, replays, screenshots (everything you would like to keep) in another place, then delete.
6. Reboot.
7. Complete reinstall of ToE, plus the official 3.1 patch.
8. Do not install mods.
9. Install 3.1h. Copy the H5_AIadv_31h.exe and H5_AIProcess_31h.exe to the /bin folder, the EE_options.pak to the /data folder.
It should run absolutely cleanly on Win7, don't change admin rights, compatibility mode or anything.
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Selvaria
Tavern Dweller
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posted September 14, 2011 10:57 AM |
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Edited by Selvaria at 11:14, 14 Sep 2011.
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@rpgyay
So its just me then?
Quick question before I reinstall. If you run "H5_AIadv_3111_beta_Debug_open.exe" is the fog of war disabled by default? Also if you check the AI resources after several days by going to the tavern/looking at the console do they still cheat?
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted September 14, 2011 12:37 PM |
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Selvaria
Tavern Dweller
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posted September 14, 2011 11:59 PM |
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Quote:
You know the fog only goes away after a day?
Whoops, now I feel so stupid. I clicked the end turn and the fog disappears -.-
anyway about the gold, the ai still cheats I noticed. They have higher gold income than they should.
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rpgyay
Known Hero
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posted September 15, 2011 03:59 AM |
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Quote:
anyway about the gold, the ai still cheats I noticed. They have higher gold income than they should.
Keep in mind that on some maps a town may have a bonus to income also a computer may of started out with a bag of endless gold (250 gold a turn).
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PyroStock
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 15, 2011 05:10 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
anyway about the gold, the ai still cheats I noticed. They have higher gold income than they should.
Keep in mind that on some maps a town may have a bonus to income also a computer may of started out with a bag of endless gold (250 gold a turn).
I'm sure a map maker could also give additional bonuses to the AI through the editor as well.
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Selvaria
Tavern Dweller
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posted September 15, 2011 06:31 AM |
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Edited by Selvaria at 08:37, 15 Sep 2011.
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Do you know any default map when the ai does not get bonus gold then? It seems that even in generated random map the ai still gets extra gold. The problem with this is they tech up too fast and in tiny maps they unrealistically show up in your doorstep with black dragons after few weeks since they build every turn and recruit max possible creatures every turn.
Do you guys ever test how much money did the hard difficulty ai made? They never go broke.
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rpgyay
Known Hero
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posted September 15, 2011 10:46 AM |
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Quote:
This AI does not cheat, on higher difficulty levels the only advantage it has is the lower starting resources for the player. (can set equal resources for all to not give AI advantage)
By visiting the tavern I've checked on the computers and confirmed that their income is what it should be, this was on a randomly generated map as well, well randomly generated and then modified with RTMG.
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Selvaria
Tavern Dweller
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posted September 15, 2011 02:27 PM |
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Edited by Selvaria at 14:42, 15 Sep 2011.
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Quote:
By visiting the tavern I've checked on the computers and confirmed that their income is what it should be, this was on a randomly generated map as well, well randomly generated and then modified with RTMG.
Actually they do. Yes, the income level is correctly listed i.e, 1000 gold, but the one you should check is their total gold.
Try checking the tavern after a few game week has passed. They always have more gold than you, while they are ahead in building base and recruiting every creature possible, and as I have stated, it is very obvious in certain map where there is several goldmines and you, the player flagged all of them. The player don't even have a shot to get, say rank one in gold amount, despite blatantly having way more income, like in my previous game I had 8000 income while the other 3 AIs had 2000-3000 income yet the each of them have more gold than me, and more wood/ore and rare resources, and almost finished building their city/recruiting everything possible.
The best way to see this is to run the open debug exe, play a map with an allied AI, and monitor all his moves, tally his income and what he build/recruit, as well as his total gold every turn, after 2 weeks or so have passed. Another way to see this is playing tiny random map w/o underground against one agressive hard/heroic AI. The AI will field a mighty army while still having 1000 gold income 
Maybe this is the so called, hardcoded cheat where AI gets gold-bonuses after week 2 to 3, or gold bonuses after their reserve drop to a certain amount.
If you think they don't cheat, try record a 1 v 1 match against the heroic difficulty/heroic lookahead AI with equal resource option and every other options disabled on the tiniest multiplayer map possible, preferably random map and record what you and the AI did every day. Also, auto-resolve all battles and do not use certain places that the AI cant use (e.g. artifact shops, dwarven treasury, dragon utopia, etc). Remember to use the AI build path as well, dwellings if possible, or dwelling prerequisite, not town hall or city hall first, not lvl 2 mage guild.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted September 15, 2011 03:20 PM |
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What is the big deal?, if the AI is too hard lower the difficulty, there should always be a higher difficulty level that you cannot beat otherwise you cannot learn.
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MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ
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Quantomas
Responsible
Famous Hero
AI Wizard
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posted September 15, 2011 04:54 PM |
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::Wizard lab assistant: They are discussing whether cheats are permissible. - Q: Of course not. - Wizard lab assistant: Will you address this? - Q: It's not really urgent, is it? Feel free to relay this info in my stead.
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Folks, listen, we are not some understaffed underfinanced developer who cannot afford to develop a proper AI, and who will probably fail to recognize top talent with this skill if it comes along. 
This means we are in for the real deal, an AI that can stand on its own legs and does not need any cheat. The reasons why this will greatly benefit the game are explained in the dev diary and on the EE website.
So, it is very welcome to have people look into whether the code contains any remaining cheats. As explained, it is rather a megasized AAA project, and while I believe I have removed any hardcoded cheats, with a codebase that is millions of lines C++, it cannot hurt to double check.
The income and treasury of the players is not a mystery. Everything is detailed in the betas' logs, the AI income, treasury, what it builds, what the heroes do and so on. What it does is in the system.log, what the AI considers is in the system_ai.log.
Sample extract from system.log:
00491281 --- 3 --- (_PlayerInfo)
00491281 IsLastHopeCase()
00491281 nCaptureTownDaysLeft: 0
00491281 AIPlayerInfo::getTeamPlayers(), allies = 00010000
00491281 Hero in tavern: Tamika
00491281 Hero in tavern: Brand
00491281 AdvMapHero: (init) Vladimir
00491281 _PlayerInfo::insertHero()
00491281 AdvMapHero: (init) Zoltan
00491281 _PlayerInfo::insertHero()
00491281 8307: Pelt - Commander
00491281 125: Aberrar - Collector
00491281 keys: 00000000
00491281 AI behaviour : 1
00491281 Available : 19 wood, 7 mercury, 9 crystals, 9 sulfur, 5 gems, 2620 gold
00491281 Income : 2 wood, 500 gold
00491281 _PlayerInfo::getStrategicAssets()
00491281 _PlayerInfo::HasBlockedRegions()
00491281 Strategic assets: 01000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
00491281 bHasBlockedRegions = 0
00491281 --- 4 --- (_PlayerInfo)
00491281 IsLastHopeCase()
00491281 nCaptureTownDaysLeft: 0
00491281 AIPlayerInfo::getTeamPlayers(), allies = 00001000
00491281 Hero in tavern: Gillion
00491281 Hero in tavern: Maeve
00491281 AdvMapHero: (init) Vinrael
00491281 _PlayerInfo::insertHero()
00491281 3801: Elleshar - Commander
00491281 keys: 00000000
00491281 AI behaviour : 1
00491281 Available : 15 wood, 5 ore, 5 mercury, 5 crystals, 5 sulfur, 5 gems, 8920 gold
00491281 Income : 2 wood, 500 gold
00491297 _PlayerInfo::getStrategicAssets()
00491297 _PlayerInfo::HasBlockedRegions()
00491297 Strategic assets: 00000000010000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
00491297 bHasBlockedRegions = 0
Keep in mind the city and mine income is not the only source of gold. Artefacts, skills and of course resources and treasure chests and buildings visited on the adventure map all can yield income.
If looking for a cheat, there are two possible things to watch out for: (a) Does the AI get additional unlegitimate income? (b) Does it receive unlegitimate discounts if it purchases stuff? No speculation though, hard evidence only, so please double check your input before posting.
Hope that helps.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
::Still tons of work to do in the lab::
---
Current stable build:
3.1h public release (8.3 MB)
Latest beta build:
3.1.11 beta release (12.3 MB)
Project website:
Heroes 5.5 - Eternal Essence
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Selvaria
Tavern Dweller
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posted September 16, 2011 10:57 AM |
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Edited by Selvaria at 10:57, 16 Sep 2011.
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First of all, thanks for the reply, I appreciate it.
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Folks, listen, we are not some understaffed underfinanced developer who cannot afford to develop a proper AI
Many developer have huge staffs and good financed yet produce crappy AI 
Quote:
This means we are in for the real deal, an AI that can stand on its own legs and does not need any cheat. The reasons why this will greatly benefit the game are explained in the dev diary and on the EE website.
Thanks for the confirmation, this is what the core AI design principle should be!
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The income and treasury of the players is not a mystery. Everything is detailed in the betas' logs, the AI income, treasury, what it builds, what the heroes do and so on. What it does is in the system.log, what the AI considers is in the system_ai.log.
How do I create these files, or record the log? I can't find it anywhere.
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This thread is pages long: 
