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jhb
Famous Hero
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posted July 15, 2012 05:00 AM |
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Edited by jhb at 18:23, 15 Jul 2012.
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Quote:
I agree that Implosion needs a boost but you have to consider that it negates healing too which is really powerful in H6.
Man, this "can't be healed" thing can be huge! I think they should change this, prime damage could put a debuff on the target (like 10-15% magic vulnerability) or maybe add another thing. I'm guessing if academy faction becomes a reality someday, the magic units in there will be doing prime damage, probably.
We need also to take a look at some little things like thunderclap, immolation, ... The chilled effect is a bit too weak imo, yea this can be usefull, but 90% of the time is too weak. They could add something instead of the %20 vulnerability to fire, maybe making that scale with the reputation:
-1 mov for 1 turn for neutral
-1 mov for 2 turns for blood1/tears1
-2 mov for 2 turns for blood2/tears2
blood -> DD spells, tears -> things like ice armor
or maybe -1 for slow units, -2 for fast units,...
earth magic, definitely lacks of some offensive appeal. I'm guessing an expansion will fill this space.
One interesting thing I did notice, sunburst spell don't got any love in 1.5, is this spell ok? Or they just forgot it?
Quote:
Also H6 needs A LOT more spells. There's a huge lack of spells and I recently played TotE and I just can't believe how many cool spells they left out...
More spells will come with expansion packs, I hope 
About the alternative upgrades and additional units, both are nice features. I'm a bit inclined to alternative upgrade.. yea just to see them with new colors  . But I think the devs will only start to think/work on these things after they decide or at least have a preview about how many factions we'll have in H6 
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 15, 2012 10:02 AM |
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Quote:
- What's the point in having a new creature when the alternate upgrades practically can have completly different functions than their original upgrades. For instance, with your idea Haven gets an additional Core shooter. But Sisters could get the same function if their alternate upgrade was a shooter (who could apply the Pacify effect). Like Elvin mentioned, there is a lot you can do like a defensive Crusher etc.
The problem is that there are a fairly limited number of different "functions" creatures can have:
- Melee offensive
- Melee defensive (tank)
- Ranged (not really sure if it makes sense to talk about offence and defence here, as Ranged units are pretty much by default offensive)
- Caster offensive (direct damage)
- Caster defensive (support)
- Flyer offensive
- Flyer defensive? (I guess you could call the Vampire a flying tank)
And that is, I think, pretty much it. Of course there are hybrids between the classes (Caster/Ranged most obviously, also some Melee/Ranged (or at least there used to be)) but still the number of "boxes" you can fit the creatures into is pretty limited.
Now, if for each faction you need to have 6 creatures on tier 1 and 6 creatures on tier 2 that fit into different boxes, it just doesn't leave a lot of room for difference between the factions. Furthermore, you're going to get a lot of generic creatures with the same role, particularly the clean Melee creatures are very troublesome because these are more or less locked in the Melee offensive/Melee defensive role.
On the bottom line, this means you'll end up with a lot of Melee creatures that are very similar in their role, and you'll pretty much eradicate the offensive/defensive distinction between the factions because all the Melee units will have an upgrade that belongs in both camps, making it purely a matter of player choice which camp the faction will belong in. Now, one might argue that the latter is not a bad thing, but it will go against our wishes for the factions to have significantly different playing styles.
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What will happen now?
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Nelgirith
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted July 15, 2012 10:15 AM |
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The main issue with alternate upgrades is that you have not only to keep faction balance in your mind, but also balance between the same faction and this is were H5 failed.
As Zenofex said previously, there are VERY few examples of balanced alternate upgrade that allowed you to pick any of the 2 units since there was, in most cases, always one very GOOD upgrade and one very BAD upgrade. There simply was NO choice since you would always pick the strongest upgrade instead of picking the upgrade that best suits your strategy (which was the aim of the alternate upgrade).
Seeing how tedious H6's balancing process is, I dread to think of what would happen if they ever added alternate upgrades to the game.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted July 15, 2012 11:55 AM |
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Quote:
The problem is that there are a fairly limited number of different "functions" creatures can have:
- Melee offensive
- Melee defensive (tank)
- Ranged (not really sure if it makes sense to talk about offence and defence here, as Ranged units are pretty much by default offensive)
- Caster offensive (direct damage)
- Caster defensive (support)
- Flyer offensive
- Flyer defensive? (I guess you could call the Vampire a flying tank)
And that is, I think, pretty much it. Of course there are hybrids between the classes (Caster/Ranged most obviously, also some Melee/Ranged (or at least there used to be)) but still the number of "boxes" you can fit the creatures into is pretty limited.
Though I agree with you, Alci, I think one can divine a few more "boxes". Especially melee can be divided into more roles than just offensive and defensive.
-Assault(traditional melee offensive)
-Shock-Assault (melee offensive, designed to break defense(usualy via movement))
-Offensive support
-Glass Cannon(Very high damage, dies like wheat before a scythe)
-Tank
-Interceptor (Melee Defensive with high movement)
-Harasment (often paired with another role, most obviously shooter)
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 15, 2012 03:22 PM |
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I don't agree.
A creatures upgrades doesn't have to be:
A) Defensive.
B) Offensive.
or
A) Melee.
B) Shooter.
You could have an offensive unit that deals damage in two different ways. Like how in H5, the Pao-Kai and Foul Wyvern were both damage dealers but they dealt damage in different ways. But I didn't feel like that was a problem in H5, the problem was balance (and again, a new creature for each faction would also cause imbalance aswell as a lot of other problems).
In H5, there were a lot of very intresting alternates that served a very different role from their original upgrades. The Magnetic Golems, The Battle-Mage, the Vindicator, the Stalker, the Skeletons etc. I didn't feel what you mentioned was a problem in H5.
I also don't agree with the "Well, Haven's theme is that it is a defensive faction" and that some more offensive alternate upgrades would ruin that theme. I don't perceive that as a problem because to me, it should be a choice in what way you want to play Haven as. Plus, some of Haven's units such as the Crossbowman clearly already have very offensive roles.
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hobo2
Promising
Known Hero
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posted July 16, 2012 12:09 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
- What's the point in having a new creature when the alternate upgrades practically can have completly different functions than their original upgrades. For instance, with your idea Haven gets an additional Core shooter. But Sisters could get the same function if their alternate upgrade was a shooter (who could apply the Pacify effect). Like Elvin mentioned, there is a lot you can do like a defensive Crusher etc.
The problem is that there are a fairly limited number of different "functions" creatures can have:
- Melee offensive
- Melee defensive (tank)
- Ranged (not really sure if it makes sense to talk about offence and defence here, as Ranged units are pretty much by default offensive)
- Caster offensive (direct damage)
- Caster defensive (support)
- Flyer offensive
- Flyer defensive? (I guess you could call the Vampire a flying tank)
And that is, I think, pretty much it. Of course there are hybrids between the classes (Caster/Ranged most obviously, also some Melee/Ranged (or at least there used to be)) but still the number of "boxes" you can fit the creatures into is pretty limited.
I think you're over estimating the number of boxes a creature could live in. Flyers, for example, aren't really different from walking creatures in most instances. It takes the fastest creature in the game 2 turns to cross the board, flying or no. The slowest creature in the game crosses the board in 3 turns. Further, you can just go around enemies, because there are a lot of squares on the board, and units have a fair amount of spare movement for crossing the board with.
Functionally, this means that there isn't a whole lot of room for a unit to be "defensive". Barring an actual creature ability to force enemies to attack them (see Ravager and Praetorian), a creature that is "defensively oriented" is basically just "terrible". Enemies can and will simply walk around them to attack more vulnerable units. Being tough and taking up space is not a role in Heroes VI because movement is so generous and walking around objects is so easy. Being a flyer isn't really a role either, and for the same reason. The extra movement that a flying unit gets for not having to walk around an obstacle is only a point or two - literally less than what Ghouls get for hating the living.
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted July 16, 2012 10:23 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 22:27, 16 Jul 2012.
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I like how the town screens look, but I'm a bit confused with their design. Probably most of you have noticed it, but the art of the buildings in town windows is different from the town presentation on the adventure map. It's like they took an artist that didn't had much of material to work on, so he used his own vision in their creation, based on what the devs said to him (like with art on MtG cards: an artist gets a short description of what he must draw and he draws whatever he likes as long as it's based on what the description said). And those are not small details. Although we didn't see creature buildings before so their ok, but look how much town walls or city halls are different in these two versions... Maybe most of you will probably say "town screens are here, stop being captious!" but this kind of inconsistency is something that bugs me when HoMM series is involved...
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yasmiel
Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
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posted July 17, 2012 01:13 AM |
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I would say quite the opposite. Town designs, and especially the town halls match their adventure map looks. It is quite well done in that regard in my opinion.
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lilbenniboi
Tavern Dweller
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posted July 17, 2012 04:31 AM |
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the only one i have issue with is strongholds.. its too green.. doesnt look like in on the adventure map to me.. maybe dusty brown mountains instead of all the green grass..
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted July 17, 2012 03:48 PM |
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How different cana game be With just minor changes.
After playing for some time today, I realized how much the feeling of the game hase changed with 1,5,1. Things now look muchmore divers then befor.
Sure we hae the Save issue ane tha fact that several new bugs have appeared but if we set this "Technical" things aside.
The game I played was a sanctuary map "The land of ancients" MP mape pased on the Christmas tresure hunt map. I just do not understand People who say that H6 has small maps. The Gigantic map was more then enought for my taste.
I used the option of the new feature a bought a special hero to play with. That hero was Hiroshi. One would not belive ho much of a difference it is to play the Naga with a "Human" hero and a "Naga" hero. The faction now felt like nation, a true faction and not a collection of creatures.
And then the Towns. Now, when you actually can destinguishe between the map ant the city, the city music stands out and you can focuse on it, you can enjoy it.
There are still thing to do, but this was just an example how small things can make e big difference
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I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted July 17, 2012 08:16 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 13:56, 18 Jul 2012.
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Quote:
I would say quite the opposite. Town designs, and especially the town halls match their adventure map looks. It is quite well done in that regard in my opinion.
I can't agree with you. For instance the Heaven Capitol has an angel on top of the roof, when looking at their town screen view. The figure is not present on adventure map model. And it's not just small details, the whole cubatures are different like the shape of the towers etc. There are completely different decorative elements like sculptures, towers, masks, roof tips etc. The same goes for city walls. Even their color schemes are not the same for instance Stronghold: brownish/orange on adv. map, grayish and red in town screen view. The differences are not so obvious in Inferno because of the towns chaotic building architecture (lot of little elements) but they are still present, although the Tear of Asha building is something really diverse...
It's not that I don't like them, their artistic style is really pretty, and they enhance the game-play experience a lot. But still, those are quite distinct models. Probably it's because the town screens are an addition, not something that was meant to be in game from the beginning. So, it was hard for devs to implement them, but they had a lot of time to do so...
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DIEGIS
Supreme Hero
power of Zamolxis
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posted July 17, 2012 11:11 PM |
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Edited by DIEGIS at 23:13, 17 Jul 2012.
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One question: I do have steam version of the game, and now upg 1.5, but dont know how you guys did it for 1.5.1...is there somewhere/smth I have to do/dwnload patch, whatever?...
thx!
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dacian falx behind you
-knowledge itself is power-
www.cabinet-dentaire-malaunay.fr
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esvath
Known Hero
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posted July 18, 2012 12:16 AM |
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Quote:
One question: I do have steam version of the game, and now upg 1.5, but dont know how you guys did it for 1.5.1...is there somewhere/smth I have to do/dwnload patch, whatever?...
thx!
The game will automatically updated to 1.5.1 when you start a new game. Or, you can download it and apply it manually here
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DIEGIS
Supreme Hero
power of Zamolxis
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posted July 18, 2012 04:20 PM |
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I started new game in single player, not campaign...nothing! Thx anyway!
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dacian falx behind you
-knowledge itself is power-
www.cabinet-dentaire-malaunay.fr
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted July 18, 2012 06:03 PM |
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Quote:
One question: I do have steam version of the game, and now upg 1.5, but dont know how you guys did it for 1.5.1...is there somewhere/smth I have to do/dwnload patch, whatever?...
thx!
Go in your program files/ubisoft/Heroes VI directory and run the GU application file (this checks for patch updates).
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 18, 2012 06:46 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 18:48, 18 Jul 2012.
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Here's a suggestion that the VIP:s can forward.
Make converted Forts better. Right now you get like 500 gold a week and that's it. I think you should be able to recruit upgraded creatures in the Forts, maybe make it more expensive to convert them since converted Forts will be better. This would make players spend more time on the adventure map.
Also I agree with all the people saying that town conversion is to obvious and easy and needs to get a bit more expensive and limited. All buildings could get downgraded during a conversion, and/or it would take some days to fully convert a town. The point is that there should be more situations where the best choice is not convert a town ASAP.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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jhb
Famous Hero
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posted July 19, 2012 01:01 AM |
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Edited by jhb at 19:38, 19 Jul 2012.
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Quote:
Make converted Forts better. Right now you get like 500 gold a week and that's it.
hmm, now I don't remember, but I think we don't need to convert to get the 500g/day, do we?
Actually, I never convert the forts unless I'm very good on money
edit: opz I was missing this one guys, thx for the info.
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Miru
Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
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posted July 19, 2012 01:15 AM |
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The patch notes look very good, and the communities faith finally seems to be restoring. It's amazing how a few small changes to such a complex game can bring people from saying they regret the purchase to enjoying it and wanting to play more. I think I will try to finish the AoH-H6 webpages, I almost finished them but kind of lost interest.
For the next patches all I hope to see is balance fixes, bug fixes, a good RMG and simultaneous turns. That is all that really stands between HoMM 6 and sustained replayability, and competitive multiplayer now. I hope they take their time and make a good RMG, I think it would be perfectly reasonable to include that and simultaneous turns in the expansion pack.
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I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 19, 2012 02:23 AM |
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Seems like A LOT of people bought the game recently.
Steam sale?
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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hobo2
Promising
Known Hero
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posted July 19, 2012 07:31 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Make converted Forts better. Right now you get like 500 gold a week and that's it.
hmm, now I don't remember, but I think we don't need to convert to get the 500g/day, do we?
Actually, I never convert the forts unless I'm very good on money
Converting a fort changes it from paying 250/day to paying 500/day. Converting a fort pays for itself in a week and a half.
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