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mvassilev
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posted June 01, 2013 11:21 PM |
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But the majority's freedom isn't being encroached upon. You're not being forced to wear a burqa, go to a mosque, eat halal, etc. Those who want to practice Islamic traditions (that don't hurt others, so obviously not things like honor killings) aren't forcibly taking anything from those who don't want to, or using force to intimidate natives to adopt their values. Also, countries don't have values - individuals do.
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Salamandre
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posted June 01, 2013 11:26 PM |
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But when the majority believe seeing a person's face is essential and part of beliefs/traditions/social assets, then it is a permanent encroach to force them to give up on the matter, no?
And btw, there are already schools where you can eat only halal and swimming pools where only islamic schedules are practiced. I call it encroach on french freedom, it went too far. That's why I said in a previous post that burqa ban is only the tip of the iceberg. Is more of a signal.
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GunFred
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posted June 01, 2013 11:27 PM |
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Edited by GunFred at 23:30, 01 Jun 2013.
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What Mvass said + cultures and traditions do not need protection. If they do, they deserve to die.
Added: Nobody has the right to see my face unless necessary for security, identification or any other important reason.
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mvassilev
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posted June 01, 2013 11:31 PM |
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Quote:
But when the majority believe seeing a person's face is essential and part of beliefs/traditions/social assets, then it is a permanent encroach to force them to give up on the matter, no?
That's not how it works. The majority could (correctly) believe that food is necessary for survival, but that doesn't mean that they could legitimately force someone who has food to give it to them. It's the same in this case: the majority may want to see someone's face - but too bad for them, they don't have the right to choose what clothes someone else wears. They're not being forced to give up anything they should have, rather it's the reverse, they're being prevented from infringing on someone else's individual liberty. It's not encroaching on someone's liberty to not let them do something they don't have the right to do. If the majority believed that it would be okay for men to beat their wives, it would still not be encroaching on individual liberty to not let men beat their wives. The same is true here, the majority wants something, but it doesn't have the right to fulfill that want by force.
As for those schools, given that they're not taking anything away from any native individuals that those native individuals have the right to have, then they're not infringing on the freedom of natives.
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Salamandre
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posted June 01, 2013 11:34 PM |
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@Gunfred
You must be kidding. Alexandria world famous library entirely burned both during Caesar and muslim conquest. And the today conquests are processed as different concepts.
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As for those schools, given that they're not taking anything away from any native individuals that those native individuals have the right to have, then they're not infringing on the freedom of natives.
Here you are wrong. As I said, several schools propose ONLY halal, because muslim associations request. If I go to swimming pool on Thursday for example, I am told it is reserved for women that day. See?
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mvassilev
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posted June 01, 2013 11:41 PM |
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Sal:
Gunfred said "cultures don't need protection", not "property doesn't need protection". If someone wants to burn a library (that doesn't belong to them), then the state should use force to prevent it, or to deal with the wrongdoer after it's done. But that's not the same as protecting a culture - it's just protecting property.
As for the pool, it doesn't belong to you. Presumably, it's a private pool (not owned by a government), so its owner(s) can decide how to run it. If they choose to not let anyone swim in it at all, that still wouldn't be an infringement on anyone's freedom. They can run it however they want (again, assuming it's privately owned), so if they want to only open it to women all 7 days of the week, that's their right too. You don't have the right to swim in the pool - and you never had that right, so it's not like it's being taken away from you now.
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GunFred
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posted June 01, 2013 11:48 PM |
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@Gunfred
You must be kidding. Alexandria world famous library entirely burned both during Caesar and muslim conquest. And the today conquests are processed as different concepts.
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As for those schools, given that they're not taking anything away from any native individuals that those native individuals have the right to have, then they're not infringing on the freedom of natives.
Here you are wrong. As I said, several schools propose ONLY halal, because muslim associations request. If I go to swimming pool on Thursday for example, I am told it is reserved for women that day. See?
The burning of that library was a pity probably but it did not ruin egyption culture so mentioning it makes no sense. What should be protected are historical documents of everything including culture history. Not the cultures themselves, especially if they are imperfect. As you know, France recently legalized gay marriage despite being against french culture. Of course a lot of people sharing your ideals made sure to express their anger over it.
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xerox
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posted June 01, 2013 11:53 PM |
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Don't the french people have freedom to choose schools?
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Salamandre
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Wog refugee
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posted June 01, 2013 11:57 PM |
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The french opposed to gay marriage are a minority so you can't say it breaks cultural values. Even if I may have my objections against (political subterfuge, lack of social priorities vision) I respect the majority choice, you won't see me bashing gays marriage.
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xerox
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posted June 02, 2013 12:11 AM |
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Edited by xerox at 00:12, 02 Jun 2013.
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The majority sometimes makes decisions that oppresses a minority though. Which is why you need something like the American constitution.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Salamandre
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Wog refugee
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posted June 02, 2013 12:15 AM |
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I must be the perfect immigrant then...after being raised in a communist country I am delighted by the multiple freedom choices I have now in France, and I usually thrust the general decisions. Not that I like France particularly, but still it makes a huge difference with where I am coming from. Most of you are born with gold in mouth, so you can't understand. 
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 02, 2013 12:57 AM |
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The majority sometimes makes decisions that oppresses a minority though. Which is why you need something like the American constitution.
Well, that's a little ironic since the French Revolution and its ideals were the major inspiration of American constitution. The thing is, unlike puritan Americans who ran away from Europe partly because of their religion, The French won their freedom fighting religion (clergy) itself.
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Elodin
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Free Thinker
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posted June 02, 2013 02:17 AM |
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Not necessarily. A lot of threads in the OSM turn to religious debates because of YOU, not me. And once they do turn into that, I naturally object. There are plenty of stuff I wrote about besides religion, again unlike you, who seems to be obsessed with two things: Religion and Obama's politics.
Nope. Look at any non-religion related thread and if religion is introduced 99% of the time it is by a person hostile towards religion who feels the need to constantly take jabs at religion.
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You are saying it's God's universe and our job is to obey his rules. That was exactly the kind of obedience I was talking about. There can't be your way of "truth seeking." When you seek the truth, you don't know where your search will take you before you're done. So saying God does not mind honest truth seeking is saying something as meaningless as "you will be a detective and do your job no matter what but my father better not turn out to be the killer." It's a paradox, to say what kind truth seeking God allows or not, it can't be limited, cause you can't know the results from the beginning.
You are making no sense. I've journeyed far on my spiritual journey and changed opinions as I've learned and understood more. Atheists are locked into one static position. "There is no god because no god exists!" No truth seeking at all there.
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If you don't care what muslims religious representatives say, then I don't see how any dialog can be held with you. They clearly stated they don't see the ban as oppressive and anti-religion, yet you continue to affirm muslims are angry about while they are NOT. Which ones are angry? Some obscure scholars from Pakistan or Afganistan? The same who call for american blood every day I guess. Why should we care what they say, different traditions, different countries.
Not all Muslim scholars agree. Some say a burqa is necessary and some women believe they are necessary. But you don't respect the rights of women and specifically their right to dress the way the want, or their right to freely exercise their religion. You favor the state oppression of women to force them to live how the state wants them to live rather than allowing them to live the way they want to live. But women are not the property of the state and should not be treated as such.
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From OSM feedback thread:
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quote:While there have been other religion bashing posts in the "Muslim" thread since my last feedback I must strongly object to to "#1" and "#2" of JJ's latest post:
The burqa is a masking device designed to prohibit anyone seeing the face of the wearer - supposedly to avoid rousing sexual desire with men (that's what the koran says). We DO know, though, from millennia of experience that women CAN show their face without being raped immediately. So a couple of questions to think about:
1) Can we even allow muslim men in our liberal societies when they have to mask the women in order to not assault and rape them?
2) Or would we have to make the burqa mandatory for all women, IF we allow muslim men into our society, to avoid them assaulting and raping our half-naked women?
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I must say that I agree with JJ view and since Elodin is objecting against, let him object twice because I am going to add to it:
Calling all Muslim men rapists should not be acceptable in this community. And such statements as in #1 and #2 are clearly deliberately false and designed for provocation.
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I find it puzzling why anyone would want to permanently live in a country that is not compatible to their culture or religion — especially if they are truly invested in their own culture or religion. Expecting France to dilute its culture to accommodate one that refuses to adopt or adapt to French social standards is simply immigrant arrogance.
Many Muslims were born in France. Their ancestors were under the mistaken impression that France values freedom, apparently. "Liberty, Equality, and Fraternity" is certainly not being lived up to in France.
I have asked JJ this question several times and he has never tried to answer it, so I'll ask you, Sal.
How exactly does a woman who believes her God requires her to wear a burqa oppress you by wearing a burqa?
The state forbidding her to wear a burqa harms her in a number of ways, which I detailed previously in a post. A woman wearing a burqa causes no harm to anyone.
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Salamandre
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posted June 02, 2013 02:26 AM |
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Surprisingly (not really), there are not the muslims living in France for 2 or more generations who militate for burqa, but rather those who immigrated recently. As for your question, I believe JJ answered. He did not state that all muslims are rapist, but using logic he made a point by investigating at the source of the religious commandment:
Why is burqa required by some scholars? Because the woman face is considered by some primitive beings as potentially obfuscating men's behavior, source of sin and attempt to immorality. So we can suppose that those asking for burqa believe so.
Now, how is not encroaching my freedom when I walk with my girl friend and she is openly called a snow because her skirt is a bit shorter than their dress code standards? Because this is what it happens today. Have you seen the UK video I posted a few pages earlier? What does the muslim ask the journalist woman?
"Who you trying to seduce".
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Now, the funny thing and why I think about all this as being bull snow and totally hypocrite stance: Google survey show that in the top 10 countries searching online for pornography, 6 were muslims, #1 on searching for child porn and rape being Pakistan. So, please...
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mvassilev
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posted June 02, 2013 04:58 AM |
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Quote:
how is not encroaching my freedom when I walk with my girl friend and she is openly called a snow because her skirt is a bit shorter than their dress code standards?
The right to not be insulted (if it exists) does not conflict with the right to wear a burqa if one so chooses.
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Salamandre
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posted June 02, 2013 05:27 AM |
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Religion has endless interpretations and views. When it conflicts with the local laws or traditions or to put it simply when it pisses a lot the non religious ones, there is need to look at source and see from where it comes, why, and only then you may state if it harms or not. The burqa is not only a piece of cloth, it is the symbol of something, besides being a religious manifestation (as they say, but is not clear). Something so far behind the civilized european values that it can not coexist without giving up social assets, some of them gained through swear and blood. Anyway, my impression is that the state will not give up on this issue, and also that more countries will follow the example.
I don't think it is a racist behavior, there is an vast chinese and turkish immigration which everyone seems to integrate perfectly, the problem is mostly religion vs state. I am not religious (not exactly atheist neither) so I can't pronounce on the matter, but I can illustrate for you how I see it: the radical muslim militants have same behavior in real life as Elodin in HC, plus the physical push-over and not censured insults. Now set your own conclusions, not matter what they are, you will agree that a lot of trouble can emerge from such conflicts.
But one thing is sure: saying that muslims or immigrants are oppressed in France is false. They benefit from the best health care and social assistance in the world, and those still not happy have lost all common sense.
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mvassilev
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posted June 02, 2013 05:33 AM |
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Quote:
When it conflicts with the local laws or traditions or to put it simply when it pisses a lot the non religious ones, there is need to look at source and see from where it comes, why, and only then you may state if it harms or not.
If someone breaks into my house and steals my stuff, it harms me equally regardless of whether the robber was motivated by the desire to sell my stuff and buy food, or buy drugs, or because he worships a thief god. If a guy wants to wear a clown suit in public, it doesn't harm me, regardless of whether he does it because he finds it aesthetically appealing, because he's paid to do it, or because he worships a clown god. The same is true if instead of one guy, it's a thousand or a million people.
If local laws restrict individual liberty, it's the laws that are harmful. If a Muslim woman is wearing a burqa, it doesn't hurt anyone. If wearing a burqa would be illegal, that means that the police can come up to the woman and fine her or arrest her, even though she wasn't doing any harm - so the police would be the ones who would be doing something harmful.
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Salamandre
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posted June 02, 2013 05:37 AM |
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You and Elodin keep arguing about wearing a cloth, no matter what is written and explained around. Of course, from this limited point of view, yes: their freedom is encroached, they can not wear what they like, I give you that.
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Elodin
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posted June 02, 2013 05:49 AM |
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Now, how is not encroaching my freedom when I walk with my girl friend and she is openly called a snow because her skirt is a bit shorter than their dress code standards? Because this is what it happens today. Have you seen the UK video I posted a few pages earlier? What does the muslim ask the journalist woman?
"Who you trying to seduce".
I did not ask about some guy in a protest asking some woman who she is trying to seduce.
I asked how is a woman oppressing you by wearing a burqa?
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Now, the funny thing and why I think about all this as being bull snow and totally hypocrite stance: Google survey show that in the top 10 countries searching online for pornography, 6 were muslims, #1 on searching for child porn and rape being Pakistan. So, please...
So you claim the the people looking up porn in a Muslim nation are the burqua-wearers? Ha!!
Shall I judge all non-Muslim French people by those who have physically attacked burqa-wearers? Maybe the French need to learn some control and not be such a violent people if that is the case. Please note the below attack was BEFORE the burqa ban and there have been attacks since the ban as well.
Clicky
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A 26-year-old Muslim convert was walking through the store in Trignac, near Nantes, in the western Loire-Atlantique region, when she overhead the woman lawyer making "snide remarks about her black burka". A police officer close to the case said: "The lawyer said she was not happy seeing a fellow shopper wearing a veil and wanted the ban introduced as soon as possible."
At one point the lawyer, who was out with her daughter, is said to have likened the Muslim woman to Belphegor, a horror demon character well known to French TV viewers. Belphegor is said to haunt the Louvre museum in Paris and frequently covers up his hideous features using a mask.
An argument started before the older woman is said to have ripped the other woman's veil off. As they came to blows, the lawyer's daughter joined in.
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But one thing is sure: saying that muslims or immigrants are oppressed in France is false. They benefit from the best health care and social assistance in the world, and those still not happy have lost all common sense.
They are oppressed by denial of freedom. Muslim women can't dress how they want. They can't freely exercise their religion even though wearing a burqa hurts no one. Opression.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted June 02, 2013 05:55 AM |
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Maybe the French need to learn some control and not be such a violent people if that is the case.
Haha, good one. Me thinks they are pussies, maybe indeed they should start to bomb the muslims before they come, invade them, spoil their natural resources and keep in prison without trial all those not being happy with. Need more hints or is enough?
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This thread is pages long: 
