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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted July 13, 2013 01:12 PM |
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People from east tend to think that most "rich" countries in Europe are inexhaustible bags of gold, with millions of empty houses and jobs just waiting to be fulfilled. Immigrants : 200 000 each year. Houses build: 30 000. There is not much to wait until it becomes a simple mathematical issue.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 13, 2013 01:17 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 13:18, 13 Jul 2013.
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Quote:
it is their right to voice their opinions about secular traditions, moral values and the living standards their ancestors aimed for.
This is true and I think one of the problems is that Europe has been to soft on islamist values that are not compatible with european values of secularism, civil liberties and rights. Some european leaders, like Tony Blair did, have even gone as far as encouraging islamist values by talking to islamists as representants of all muslim immigrant (which is completely wrong) and by implementing laws that makes it harder to critize islamism.
I like what David Cameron said about muscular liberalism. Cultures are not equal. Some are better than others. Do not give islamism a competitive advantage through legislation and political support. If you do that, then nationalists will demand the same things and you will quickly find yourself in a sectarian society where peoples' rights are not given to them based on their citizenship, but based on their culture or religion.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted July 13, 2013 01:21 PM |
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The mistake was to believe that diversity is better than homogeneity. From there things piled chaotically and reports contradict it.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted July 13, 2013 01:35 PM |
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I agree that diversity isn't better, absolutely.
But if they want diversity they shouldn't complain about the results.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 13, 2013 04:27 PM |
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Before resorting to immigration restrictions, try this:
- Make immigrants ineligible for welfare.
- Enforce laws when they break them (such as laws against rape, assault, etc).
- Exclude them from voting.
- When immigrants (or anybody) riots, send out the police to protect private property (shops, people's cars, etc), with lethal force, if necessary.
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Eccentric Opinion
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 13, 2013 04:57 PM |
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mvassilev said:
Before resorting to immigration restrictions, try this:
- Make immigrants ineligible for welfare.
- Enforce laws when they break them (such as laws against rape, assault, etc).
- Exclude them from voting.
- When immigrants (or anybody) riots, send out the police to protect private property (shops, people's cars, etc), with lethal force, if necessary.
So basically you're suggesting to use them as slave labor without any rights and if they object to that by the only way they can (since they can't vote), shooting them. Nice...
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted July 13, 2013 05:11 PM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 17:20, 13 Jul 2013.
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mvassilev said:
Before resorting to immigration restrictions, try this:
- Make immigrants ineligible for welfare.
- Enforce laws when they break them (such as laws against rape, assault, etc).
- Exclude them from voting.
- When immigrants (or anybody) riots, send out the police to protect private property (shops, people's cars, etc), with lethal force, if necessary.
Well if thats what anti-immigrants in HC like you think. You should know that not all immigrants are islamists and many immigrants that do cause problems are also from Eastern europe and non-muslim.
A simple googleing would prove this.
I have come to think that religion is not really the main cause of the problems in europe. Its family education, and religion is a part of it.
Immigrants will not become "european" untill the 2nd or 3rd generation and religion is serving as a symbol of a different culture, add that to the education these people get from X country, you get some zealots.
As for all immigrants thinking this or that, I am certain you cannot say that for all of them.
And as for your measures suggestions. We might as well throw the geneva conventions out of the window and go back into slave labor or concentration camps. Ethnic background has nothing got to do with citizenship. Of a dude gets the citizenship of X country, he is a citizen from X country.
If immigration is such a problem, countries should get out of the EU, close borders and maybe break the geneva conventions.
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GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
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posted July 13, 2013 05:20 PM |
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Edited by GunFred at 17:31, 13 Jul 2013.
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artu said:
mvassilev said:
Before resorting to immigration restrictions, try this:
- Make immigrants ineligible for welfare.
- Enforce laws when they break them (such as laws against rape, assault, etc).
- Exclude them from voting.
- When immigrants (or anybody) riots, send out the police to protect private property (shops, people's cars, etc), with lethal force, if necessary.
So basically you're suggesting to use them as slave labor without any rights and if they object to that by the only way they can (since they can't vote), shooting them. Nice...
There was nothing in his post about slavery. Just basic law enforcement and that they should not be allowed to vote or be given something for doing nothing.
Added: They can't vote because they have little to no understanding of the political system so give them some time in the country before giving them their voting rights. And the rioteers who destroy the property of others usually do it for the sake of destruction and not protesting against how they are treated. Riots and peaceful protests are not the same thing. Of course though, a society has itself to blame when it lets a minority form its own bubble of poverty, mistreatment and neglect and then the bubble bursts and splashes on the surrounding society.
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted July 13, 2013 05:22 PM |
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GunFred said:
artu said:
mvassilev said:
Before resorting to immigration restrictions, try this:
- Make immigrants ineligible for welfare.
- Enforce laws when they break them (such as laws against rape, assault, etc).
- Exclude them from voting.
- When immigrants (or anybody) riots, send out the police to protect private property (shops, people's cars, etc), with lethal force, if necessary.
So basically you're suggesting to use them as slave labor without any rights and if they object to that by the only way they can (since they can't vote), shooting them. Nice...
There was nothing in his post about slavery. Just basic law enforcement and that they should not be allowed to vote or be given something for doing nothing.
Denying people the right to vote and treating them as suspects= 2nd rate citizens, also known as slaves.
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"Science is not fun without cyanide"
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 13, 2013 05:22 PM |
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It's not slave labor. No one is forcing them to work or restricting their freedom of movement, which are the defining features of slavery. If they want to live and work in a country, they should be free to do so, and the government should not intervene in a private exchange between an employer and employee just because the employee is foreign. If an immigrant wants to come to a country despite knowing that he'll be ineligible for welfare and won't be able to vote, and still decides to come, that's his choice - and giving immigrants the choice to come to a country under certain restrictions is better than not giving them the option of immigrating altogether. If you care about the well-being of would-be immigrants, you shouldn't tell them, "It's better for you to stay in your country of birth than to come to France/America/etc because you'd be ineligible for welfare and unable to vote there." You'd let them choose for themselves.
Of course, the best option would be to abolish the welfare state altogether, for citizens and non-citizens alike. But my proposal is still an improvement over the status quo, and those who want native-born citizens to be eligible for welfare and object to immigration on welfare state or voting grounds should find my proposal acceptable. Is it better to work in America or France and not be eligible for welfare, or is it better to be stuck in Zimbabwe? The answer is obvious.
As for rioting, using force against rioters and looters isn't something that should be restricted to immigrants. If native-born citizens loot shops and burn cars, they should be dealt with the same way.Quote:
Well if thats what anti-immigrants in HC like you think.
I'm an anti-immigrant? I support open borders - letting in all immigrants (as long as they're not wanted criminals or terrorists, obviously).
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Eccentric Opinion
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 13, 2013 05:32 PM |
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Edited by artu at 17:41, 13 Jul 2013.
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The slave thing was a hyperbole obviously, I know you didn't suggest them to not get paid or be chained. What you suggest is the de facto condition of illegal immigrants. Once you become a citizen though, and you don't become that overnight anyway, you should be a citizen with the rights everyone has, no more or less.
Quote:
As for rioting, using force against rioters and looters isn't something that should be restricted to immigrants. If native-born citizens loot shops and burn cars, they should be dealt with the same way.
Ever heard of something called excessive force? It's not considered a good thing in modern, liberal (which you claim to be) democracies, not to mention it solves nothing in long term. The police are not the military, their job is not neutralizing the enemy.
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GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
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posted July 13, 2013 05:39 PM |
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Seraphim said:
Denying people the right to vote and treating them as suspects= 2nd rate citizens, also known as slaves.
I was editing my earlier post but I was too late and this is what I wrote about voting...
"Added: They can't vote because they have little to no understanding of the political system so give them some time in the country before giving them their voting rights..."
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 13, 2013 06:13 PM |
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artu:
If the immigrants want to come to a country despite not being eligible for welfare, you're not making them better off by telling them they can't. I find it strange that one moment some people are very concerned about the plight of immigrants (they shouldn't be treated as second-class citizens) and the next moment they support immigration restrictions. The message they're sending is, "Immigrants, it's better for you to stay in your own country, bad as it may be, than to come to a first-world country and be ineligible for some things." Isn't what's better up to them? Give them the choice and they'll choose.
As for rioters, shooting looters isn't excessive force if there are many of them and it's too dangerous to tackle them to the ground and arrest them.
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Eccentric Opinion
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 13, 2013 06:40 PM |
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The number of immigrants being taken in per year can be limited which is a very reasonable solution allowing them to melt into the new country, other than that, you are either a citizen or not, such a thing as semi-citizen will only make people feel mistreated, underrated and lead them to more criminal activity and riots. Nobody travels thousands of kilometers and start a new life because they have nothing better to do. They immigrate so they will have higher standards in the first place.
Shooting rioters is indeed excessive force by today's standards. There are options like tear gas, water cannon etc etc for such situations and even their overuse (or misuse) is sometimes considered police brutality. You are not organizing an ant farm, societies consist of people who react to things. You can not bottle up that pressure by brute force, it only makes things worse in the long term.
Of course, Muslims should understand that the laws are secular and their faith deserves no special treatment. Politicians shouldn't compromise on that. That's a given that shouldn't be even mentioned.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 13, 2013 06:51 PM |
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They wouldn't be semi-citizens, they'd just be non-citizens. They'd still have equal protection under the law, they would just not be eligible for welfare and unable to vote. And again, even if they feel "mistreated", it's up to them to choose whether it's better to feel that way in a first-world country (if they'd feel that way, which is questionable) or stay in their country of origin.
Water canons, tear gas, and such are also acceptable tools for dealing with rioters. I'm not insisting that rioters be shot, only that the police protect private property instead of standing by and letting looters loot. On the other hand, if would-be rioters know they could be shot for their actions, they'd think twice about rioting.
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Eccentric Opinion
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 13, 2013 06:59 PM |
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Yes, and if you knew you were going to get shot for stealing candy you would think twice about it too. But they dont do that, do they.
You still treat the situation like they're doing the immigrants a favor and refuse to see that this is a two way street. Europe NEEDS the immigrants.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 13, 2013 07:07 PM |
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With the welfare state, to a certain extent it is doing immigrants a favor. Without it (or if they were ineligible for it), most immigrants would come because employers want them to. That's not to say that most immigrants now come to leech off the taxpayers. Europeans benefit from immigration because immigrants are a cheap source of labor. Immigrants benefit from immigration because they're paid much more than they would in their countries of birth. What I'm objecting to is people acting as if they're doing immigrants a favor by keeping them out of the country they want to enter.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted July 13, 2013 07:30 PM |
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There was a parabola which proved to me to apply to any real life actions: if you want to boil water, don't add fresh water each time the water is on the point to boil: it will never boil, no matter how long you keep doing so. Immigration became a political issue before anything: there will always be irresponsible, blind and wistful people who will stop supporting a political movement taking the risk of telling the truth and analyzing the situation. There will always be extreme shortcuts labeling the patriots of nazi, warmongering brats and xenophobes. Ignore those shortcuts, immigration control is way more complex than scurvy xenophobia, it is a mathematical equation and its variables can't be bend following the political ambitions.
The issue is close of the boiling water parabola. An immigration wave needs time to integrate. Someone has to start serious studies on this phenomenon and bring realistic and tested conclusions. How much time it takes. How to deal with. When to accept new. Only when first wave is assimilated you may open your borders again and take another, then take care of it as well. This is common sense, or it will be the public opinion which will boil and the continuous frustration will indeed lead to xenophobia-the real one, when no arguments will help.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 13, 2013 07:33 PM |
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As long as immigrants are following the law, why should they have to integrate?
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Eccentric Opinion
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 13, 2013 07:42 PM |
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If the cultures are beyond compatible compromise, just following the law wont make all problems disappear. Laws are not falling from the sky, they are establihed, formulized and executed within cultural norms. If alien elements are too different, law becomes inexecutable anyway. Take the problematic of women rights and Islam, if the newcomers still live in pre-industrial habits, just saying they are equal by law wont solve anything. Again, you are not organizing an ant farm.
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