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Salamandre
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posted July 13, 2013 07:43 PM |
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Because multiculturalism doesn't mean conflicting cultures pilled together, but an extension or variation of a secular one, in occurrence the one already in place. For example, having muslims think that our European women are disposable snows because they dress how they dress is not multiculturalism, but an extreme conflict with negative impacts, and needs to be eradicated directly at the roots of their religion.
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Fauch
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posted July 13, 2013 08:09 PM |
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artu said:
There are options like tear gas, water cannon etc etc for such situations and even their overuse (or misuse) is sometimes considered police brutality.
I heard that's the tools they use to repress peaceful demonstrations.
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artu
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posted July 13, 2013 08:10 PM |
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Fauch
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posted July 13, 2013 08:11 PM |
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I don't dare imagining what they would use on rioters
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mvassilev
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posted July 13, 2013 08:31 PM |
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Saying that women are equal before the law means that if a woman is beaten by her husband, the legal system can take action. If Muslims harass a woman for the way she dresses, that is also grounds for legal action. Artu, if you're worried about the influence immigrants would have on laws, exclude them from voting, as I suggested.
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artu
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posted July 13, 2013 09:02 PM |
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No, it's not about influence. It's about feasibility. As usual, you talk from dreamland where laws are perfectly executed independent of cultural ghettos or social norm. Not voting means less social mobility and stricter ghetto btw.
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xerox
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posted July 13, 2013 09:19 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 21:21, 13 Jul 2013.
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On immigrants and wellfare benefits. It is not feasible for european countries to abolish the wellfare state (American republicans and libertarians: take note). What can be done however, is to restrict access to it. Don't make things like healthcare accessable for all. Instead, restrict these services to citizens so that instead of wellfare benefits, you have civil benefits (which also includes things like voting rights). So how do you become a citizen? Instead of becoming a citizen after having passed a test or having lived in the country for half a lifetime, allow immigrants to become citizens after they have paid taxes for a year. This solves the whole "social tourism" issue (among others, black labour market etc) and gives immigrants an incentive to work and get civil benefits.
On values. In the case of muslim immigrants these values will be challenged as those people no longer live in a country where islamic values are the norm. I think even the most extreme individuals will accept seeing women walking by themselves downtown or working with them. For this integration process to work, it is important that the state or judicial system doesn't intervene. Don't stop employers or schools from banning religious clothing or not taking notice to praying times. Always oppose demands for sharia. The education system is also important. Do not allow any kind of religious education, be it among other students or in homeschooling.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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artu
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posted July 13, 2013 09:30 PM |
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Quote:
In the case of muslim immigrants these values will be challenged as those people no longer live in a country where islamic values are the norm.
Well, I think the point I and Sal agree on is this: If too many immigrants are allowed at once, then you have societies within societies so instead of the assimilation, you have cultural ghettos and conflict occurs between the ghetto and uptown. Imagine I have a time machine and I instantly beamed up 2 million Southern US citizens from 1930 to "we now have a black president" US. Would they just adjust to the situation?
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mvassilev
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posted July 13, 2013 09:36 PM |
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If there's a ghetto in which crimes are common, hire more police, train them better, etc. Then send them in to enforce laws.
And if you're concerned about ghettoes - should people who currently live in ghettoes be deported?
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artu
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posted July 13, 2013 09:43 PM |
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Yes, your sophisticated solution of "hit them harder" again. Not so surprising since that was what you came up with in the healthcare thread. What was it... The police is cheaper. Unfortunately, if a problem is sociological, that means it reproduces itself unless truly solved instead of oppressed.
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Salamandre
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posted July 13, 2013 10:40 PM |
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The European police is not trained for riots and civil wars. We also don't shoot everything that moves suspiciously, as in US. Must find alternative solutions, the prisons and already overcrowded with people from those ghettos, which puts enough the government in great embarrass when he is asked for releasing statistics.
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xerox
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posted July 13, 2013 11:00 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 23:03, 13 Jul 2013.
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My observations are that occasional unrest in ghetto areas are mostly caused by gangs of unemployed young men or teenagers inciting each other. And then like vultures, political parties flock around these events to scavenge and make them fit into their ideological views. Blame it on allegded class differences! Blame it on moral decay! Blame it on high immigration!
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Salamandre
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posted July 13, 2013 11:11 PM |
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The extreme-right parties are often demonized; with the various EU issues, the immigration is only pointed as one problem amongst many others. They are much more concerned by the milliards given to Grece, by Bruxelles settings constraints and by enterprises moving abroad because of too high taxes. If you imagine they keep all day beating on immigrants, this is no longer true. They have to adapt to political norms.
Those parties are very useful to our complex society, being the thermometer of the integration. There are always irresponsible leftists which will cry all names about, but they are the only existing way to analyze if the integration effort was wasted or useful. You can't cook eggs without breaking them first.
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GunFred
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posted July 13, 2013 11:59 PM |
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Salamandre said:
The extreme-right parties are often demonized...
I wonder why... 
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Drakon-Deus
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posted July 14, 2013 12:10 AM |
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GunFred said:
Salamandre said:
The extreme-right parties are often demonized...
I wonder why...
Because of the side who won ww2. If it was the other way now the left parties would be demonized, I am sure.
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Seraphim
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posted July 14, 2013 12:14 AM |
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artu said:
No, it's not about influence. It's about feasibility. As usual, you talk from dreamland where laws are perfectly executed independent of cultural ghettos or social norm. Not voting means less social mobility and stricter ghetto btw.
Not to mention that immigrants are the demographic that rarely partakes in voting.
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artu
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posted July 14, 2013 01:09 AM |
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Edited by artu at 01:13, 14 Jul 2013.
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What exactly do you mean when you say they took care of you?
Edit: I dont know how exactly but my post is placed above the one I just read. The question is to the post below.
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Salamandre
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posted July 14, 2013 01:09 AM |
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GunFred said:
I wonder why...
To tell the truth, have no idea. When I came into this country as immigrant, the people who took care of me happened to be extreme right voters, as I found much later. I never had any prejudges but preferred to inform myself, and I would hate to be one more pawn from the political correct super-moralists haters leftists group (enough?), who just take shortcuts on right wing and most often have no clue what's really about.
So far, the only party which I strongly disagree is the left. It has nice ideas but tries by all means to please the majority and this leads to a sheep congregation. As usual, they are the spokesman of low class and poorly educated people, extremely jealous about the ones who made their way successfully. They enjoy penalizing the elite, while positively discriminating the mediocrity. This is what I call political immobility reduced at a profit oriented business.
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Salamandre
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posted July 14, 2013 01:20 AM |
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To answer to Artu: as romanian immigrant, 20 years ago, I had no access to french scholar ship or job because not in EU. This means unknown people had to offer financial guarantees for me, and take care of my needs, as at 18 yo old you can't survive in a country which does not let you work nor offers you any financial help. So first years were mostly private assistance, until I had my papers.
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GunFred
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posted July 14, 2013 02:29 AM |
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Drakon-Deus said:
GunFred said:
Salamandre said:
The extreme-right parties are often demonized...
I wonder why...
Because of the side who won ww2.
What talkes like a demon and acts like a demon is most likely a demon and should be treated as such. Think what you want about immigration, all you need is to observe some of these parties to understand that they are bad for any good and moral society.
Quote:
If it was the other way now the left parties would be demonized, I am sure.
Well duh... But you know what, while history is written by the winners, sometimes the good guys wins. (or at the very least, less bad guys who do not distort historical truth... as far as I know...  )
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This thread is pages long: 
