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| Thread: Things that H6 did right |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · NEXT» |
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 24, 2012 08:52 PM |
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Things that H6 did right
There are more than a few subjects where H6 fared poorly but I have to admit that I liked some of the things it did, especially with units/abilities and their evolution over previous heroes games. But before I get to that I have to say that I enjoy the stronger focus on combat that H5 set and was carried over into H6.
In the former there were few units you could consider useless and certainly no units that lacked special abilities - save the blade dancer. That game also set the trend of unit combos within the same army which made battles so much more interesting. Spellcasters could directly aid their units, curse their opponents or even counter the enemy hero, dryads and treants were symbiotic, squires offered ranged protection to your crossbowmen, pristine unicorns could take advantage of the druids' light magic and so on. H6 took it a step further and gave units more distinctive roles in the battlefield, gave them more abilities and increased the synergy between units overall. You might argue that they even went overboard but I rather like it. Even your tier 7 have received a kind of depth they never possessed, they aren't your typical damage dealers and even play differently according to whether you are might or magic. And let's not forget about the might-magic dichotomy, introducing the magic element in hero attacks, units and spells was an interesting decision. I've gotten so used to it that I feel surprised it was not present in previous games
But this is just a prelude and this topic has a more narrow focus. Here is what H6 did right:
UNITS-ABILITIES
It was a great idea that the squires evolved into praetorians and became true tanks minus the pathetic speed. And not only they draw part of the damage to themselves but they also strike against enemies attacking nearby allies so placement plays a greater role.
The berserker's ability became the jagwar's charge, adding the ability to pick your path leading up to the enemy, leaving your defense intact so that they don't fall like flies AND adding all around damage. Much more useful and fun.
The blackbear's paw strike moved to the enraged cyclops with an area attack which is just as satisfying but doesn't take away the enemy's turn. That was freaking annoying when facing fortress.
Speaking of cyclopes, they not only incorporated the bloodeyed's laserbeam into their ranged attack but they also kept the club all around smashing and made it activated! No fear of accidentally killing half your army if you take a wrong step and it even knocks back the weaklings ^^ Splendid job there.
The goblin's trap was similarly improved, now it is not tied to chance, has a damage component and inflicts a standard -4 speed penalty. To top it off, goblins can also shoot with increased damage against immobile opponents, making them a more interesting unit.
The battlemage's line of fire was given to the marksman, in a faction that has the means to prevent collateral damage(guardian angel). Even better, 1.7 made it an activated ability so you can plan your ranged fire better.
They devs avoided the mistake of giving strike and return to a unit with 8 speed, while morale does not allow you to strike again at the same distance. Also there aren't any speed 4 units so it is no longer possible to slaughter thousands of units with a single harpy.
The good old shield bash from squires and battleragers turned into the vestal's pacification, a good example of creative use.
Basic griffins got a battle dive of their own and their upgrade got the battle griffin's horizontal dive while making it instant, just what the ability needed.
Jousting charge turning into blinding charge that bypasses enemy retaliation because.. the light reflecting upon the shiny armour blinds the crusader's enemies.. that was precious! But a decent example of ability evolution within the faction's theme.
The archangel's resurrection getting two charges while also improving morale and initiative. Nuff said.
The familiar's mana leech migrating to the breeder that has to drain it little by little, very good decision. The instant, non-percentage high mana drain could prove quite problematic in H5.
The overseer's explosion changing into the tormentor's retractable spikes is a shining example ofa pathetic ability turned into a good one. Not only did it meet the unit's melee damage but it was also given in a unit fast enough to use it effectively.
As much as I loved the warmonger's chance-based taunt, the tormentor's taunting presence was perfectly fitted to its host's mentality. Intimidating and manipulating a small portion of the battlefield.
One of the issues with the H5 devil was that he was so susceptible to dark spells, in a faction that did not have the vampirism counter until the second addon. H6 avoided the issue by making the pitlord immune to crowd control. In getting the devil's teleportation and all those cool powers, I can honestly say that I don't miss the old devils. That is an accomplishment.
You knew I'd mention it the moment you started reading the thread - incorporeality! Thank goodness H6 went for a might reduction instead of the coin toss hit or miss chance. I should buy a beer to the one who made this change.
Changing the old banshee's admitedly pathetic wail into one that does not require you to be near and can damage enemies as well as heal allies. Which is not to say that the idea was bad but the implementation was piss poor.
Moving the horned leaper's leap to the frog-like kappa, adding no retaliation and splash damage for the upgrade was a good line of evoution. It was amazing but triple damage on retaliation made it a pretty suicidal ability.
Reintroducing mark of the wizard as the mizu kami's spirit bond was an choice for a support unit.
Introducing mobile shooter as the logical continuation of the centaur marauder's manoeuver ability, a creative process.
Reintroducing the runekeeper's avenging flame as cremation. You probably don't remember it, it was an unused ability..
Changing the unicorn's chance-based blind into the glory's searing light and adding a cooldown was an acceptable change though I rather prefered the hp-based trigger chance of the original. This game misses some randomness.
SPELLS
Frenzy attacking instantly but not wasting the target's turn was just the tweak the spell needed. In H5 it was easy to avoid by placing weak stacks near frenzied units or manipulate the initiative to get your important units out of the way. And consuming the whole turn was a bit too much.
Allowing more that one summons of a different element present in the battlefield and giving the option of placement was one of the most important changes since H5.
Good old bloodlust / righteous might gaining initiative and decent might damage boost if for a short while was much much better than an insane +12 attack with a duration that could last for a long while. Not to mention that it was just as effective for might heroes.
Meteor shower becoming firestorm was a decent choice. I like the thought of keeping the instant carnage for fire and the slower, over time crushing damage for earth. Unfortunately earth has not gotten the damaging spells it deserves, such as landmine and arcane crystal.
The titan's call thunderstorm became acid cloud which actually has decent damage and lasts forever so you cannot ignore it. Just what it needed.
Moving the arcane armour spell to first tier as celestial shield was an interesting choice as it can be useful in creeping while it is not such a hot endgame spell. I would have preferred that light started with that and that resurrection(H6 heal..) was placed at a higher tier, less risk of imbalance that way.
Chain lightning shedding the traditional half-dmg jump in favour of a more reasonable reduction and stopped affecting allies! Now you just love wreaking havoc with it.
Blind becoming a light spell was a brilliant idea - pun intended. Light has gotten a lovely redesign in general. And I am glad that regeneration moved to earth to prevent light from overstacking on healing spells - it is also a nice nod to the myth of Antaeus.
Armageddon becoming an inferno exclusive that does not affect demons was.. interesting. While I admit some suicidal thrill with that spell back in the older times, I kind of like it this way. Not powerful enough to kill half your army in one cast, it won't even affect your army! Though it can no longer fulfill the sadistic pleasure of eradicating everying in the battlefield - foes and allies alike - in a wave of massive destruction, it is more.. practical this way. And the concept of the demons bringing armageddon? A nice touch. But I would like it to make a return for the rest of the evil factions or at least dungeon.
The old rather pathetic inferno spell becoming a fiery pillar of destruction that jumps from unit to unit and flares up in the beginning of their turn might as well be the best H6 idea ever.
The vampirism spell moving to first tier I life drain with a sharply decreased duration, a draining cap and losing the undead status was quite the elegant redesign. Adding a mass version and making it affect shooters breathed new life into that spell.
Icebolt was immensely improved with the freeze effect even at the cost of damage. Add the icebreaker combo and you've got a good deal.
Puppet being dispelled at the unit being attacked and its reduced duration was a much needed change, it prevented the unit from being ganged up and beaten to death without chance of retaliation.
Changing decay into agony, a spell that will only hurt you when you act but trigger on both attacks and retaliations made it more interesting.
Magic affinity allowing the regeneration of mana during combat was another must.
Powerful blow turning into pressed attack with increased hero damage at the cost of a short duration was just the thing it needed.
That's all I can think of for now  Hope you find it interesting.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 24, 2012 09:14 PM |
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Quote:
They devs avoided the mistake of giving strike and return to a unit with 8 speed, while morale does not allow you to strike again at the same distance.
I somewhat lost you there - did you repress the Glories deliberately (by the way, an example for going a step or two too far with abilities)? 
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted September 24, 2012 09:18 PM |
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It certainly is interesting and I have read nothing I disagree with. Let us hope we move into a brighter future still.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 24, 2012 09:21 PM |
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Yes but the glories are of a higher tier, you cannot upgrade them on day 2-3 as was the case with H5 furies. Dungeon only needed stalkers, furies and spells to creep which felt so wrong. In a map that allowed fast levelling I'd managed lots of titans and even 34 emeralds by end of week 2. (That was before 3.1 when units started moving around randomly when your army was invisible)
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 24, 2012 10:22 PM |
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Ah, ok.
Of course they tried resurrection abilities instead, didn't they?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 24, 2012 10:28 PM |
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Cheesy does it. Hope they resist the cheese next time.
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted September 24, 2012 10:57 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 22:58, 24 Sep 2012.
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My, you wrote an awful lot of text in the last few days Elvin. Are you paid for this or are you trying to uphold interest for the game
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted September 24, 2012 11:04 PM |
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Quote:
My, you wrote an awful lot of text in the last few days Elvin. Are you paid for this or are you trying to uphold interest for the game
Elvin has been optimistic since day 0
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 24, 2012 11:11 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 23:33, 24 Sep 2012.
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I have grown disillusioned since, especially about the skill system, map editor and inability to add sim turns and RMG. But I like making overviews and observations on what has come to pass. And it wasn't all bad, it just won't ever get really good. Or rather as good as I once hoped.
EDIT:
Ah, if only I knew what kind of a mess the conflux would be.. Anyway let's not derail the thread with that.
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SepSpring
Known Hero
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posted September 25, 2012 12:25 AM |
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"Things that H6 did right" - lots of female creatures! 
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chrambo
Hired Hero
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posted September 25, 2012 01:20 AM |
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I think my favorite parts were the drop-dead-gorgeous graphics, the (pretty) good unit synergy, and the editor. Believe it or not, I like the editor and I've had more fun with it than with the actual game.
Now if only those skills were better...
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 25, 2012 10:50 AM |
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I don't actually want to debate whether this or that spell or ability was good or bad, because I don't think, it's that important for the game as a synergetic whole. However, there is one thing in your post that really irks me, because it strikes me so ... wrong:
Quote:
The vampirism spell moving to first tier I life drain with a sharply decreased duration, a draining cap and losing the undead status was quite the elegant redesign. Adding a mass version and making it affect shooters breathed new life into that spell.
First of all this is a HoMM 4 spell, Vampiric Touch, which was level 4 and hat a conversion rate of 50%.
Life Drain, in my opinion, is one of the worst spells ever. First of all the naming sucks, because LIFE DRAIN is something else completely, logically spoken. LIFE DRAIN would and should be the name of a DESTRUCTIVE Dark Magic spell, killing living targets by draining them of their life, leaving withered husks on the battlefield. What happens with that drained life is something else completely and might be dealt with in an advanced version, that would channel said life energy to an UNDEAD creature - the way the Liches work.
So what we have here is indeed VAMPIRIC TOUCH which makes a lot of sense when comparing the spell with Vampiric Embrace and Vampiric Grasp, the Vampires's Life Drain ability in the game.
Which means, every newbie hero can choose to change his or her units temporarily into undead creatures, because it just shouldn't be possible to equip a living unit with the abilities of undead creatures without becoming undead as well.
Frankly, I HATE that spell, because it handles this very complex issue like it was a piece of cake. Every Barbarian and every Heretic can cast around spells that should be difficult and the use of which should have dire consequences. I mean, life-draining Crushers would be (are) an abomination, wouldn't (aren't) they?
(Not that "Heal" and "Regeneration" would be much different cases, but Life Drain is even worse, since it completely disregards basic logic.)
I mean, not I'm totally against that kind of stuff. I think we can all easily imagine a high level Shaman taking the Blood Path and excelling in Dark Magic, bestowing his/her warriors in times of war temporarily with some of the abilities of undead, certainly a leader with a more than regional reputation, probably feared by other Orks because of the "Necro mojo".
But a young and untried Barbarian casting stuff like that?
BAD decision - probably to be seen with a view on the general decision to make everyone immediately able to undo the death of at least some of their units, but that's where things simply do not fit, where the natural flow of the game is forced into something that doesn't make sense, just to reach a certain design goal.
But the best thing is "making it affect shooters breathed new life into that spell" - (pun intended?)
Because that's what the spell does: breathing new life into shooters. Centaurs's arrows will drain the blood of their victims and magically channel the life energy back to them. Tele-Vampirism, QUITE an achievement - and readily available for the fledgeling Barbarian.
To make it short - for me this spell is the embodiment of everything they did WRONG, when it comes to spells and abilities.
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted September 25, 2012 11:14 AM |
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Edited by blob2 at 11:16, 25 Sep 2012.
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Quote:
To make it short - for me this spell is the embodiment of everything they did WRONG, when it comes to spells and abilities.
I think you are overreacting in this case. Life Drain was present in many other games in various forms, for instance in Skyrim you have life drain bows. This spell is just a part of a cannon in fantasy-esque games, so I don't think the devs were trying to be original here. We are talking about magic and magical effects (which are of course fictional) in a fictional world. And as such you can freely manipulate the effects and physics of a world you created (devs in this case). How can you telepathically drain the life from your enemy? Well and how can you teleport, ride a dragon (I mean kirin) or cast firestorms, all in the same day, in the first place
The only problem may be with the naming (absorb maybe?), but many people don't care because it's the effect that matters...
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 25, 2012 12:05 PM |
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That reads like you missed the point, and somewhat completely.
To summarize by quoting selected parts:
Elvin: Quote:
The vampirism spell moving to first tier I life drain ... was quite the elegant redesign. Adding a mass version and making it affect shooters breathed new life into that spell.
Me: Quote:
First of all the naming sucks, because LIFE DRAIN is something else completely... What we have here is indeed VAMPIRIC TOUCH ... Every Barbarian and every Heretic can cast around spells that should be difficult and the use of which should have dire consequences ... I'm not totally against that kind of stuff ... we can all easily imagine a high level Shaman taking the Blood Path and excelling in Dark Magic ... certainly a leader with a more than regional reputation, probably feared by other Orks because of the "Necro mojo". But a young and untried Barbarian casting stuff like that? BAD decision - probably to be seen with a view on the general decision to make everyone immediately able to undo the death of at least some of their units ... But the best thing is ... Centaurs's arrows will drain the blood of their victims and magically channel the life energy back to them. Tele-Vampirism, QUITE an achievement - and readily available for the fledgeling Barbarian ...
So what we are basically talking about is the decision to make what is actually Vampiric Touch a lowest level spell instead of a high level one and aditionally give it the capacity to work over a distance (which is what the greek "tele" means, as in tele-vision).
Also, the point, "hey, it's magic, they can do everything", is definitely NOT valid, because if there isn't at least a world-inherent logic, the world ceases to be immersive: you can't just do everthing you like or find useful and necessary without any rhyme or reason, because if you could you wouldn't need a "world" or a "story" in the first place.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 25, 2012 01:58 PM |
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That's not much of an issue, you can even argue that it opens a magical channel that transfers the target's vitality to the spell recipient. I'm more interested in the gameplay aspect and my point was that it got an interesting redesign to make it work as a lower level spell. Also it was more balanced than the other 2 healing spells but that isn't saying much by its own If it was moved to tier 2 and tier 3 got it's vampiric equivalent that adds undead properties I have a feeling that it would work very nicely.
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 25, 2012 02:59 PM |
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Do you really think the game needs low level resurrection spells? Whatever they are called and how they are supposed to work?
I mean, does it make sense to have Level 1 Barbarians cast "LIfe Drain" on their Crushers? Or Furies? Or Goblins for that matter - not that they would have need for that, mind you, but still.
What kind of awful gameplay design is it when raising, resurrecting and regenerating are the LOWEST LEVEL abilities (tier 1, Core creatures), immediately available for every darn hero, while half of them will never be able in their whole life to cast a simple BLIND? So much for the gameplay aspect.
Now think about that: how can LIVING and UNDEAD creatures can profit in the same way from a life force draining spell (a question that is true for the Regeneration spell as well), raising living and undead equally? Shouldn't those dark magicks change the revived units, making them undead ONCE AND FOR ALL? (And how can undead REGENERATE, for frig's sake? That needs LIFE!)
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KingImp
Famous Hero
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posted September 25, 2012 04:20 PM |
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For as negative as I can be about this game, I will say that I agree with a lot of what you posted Elvin.
They did do some things right and actually had good ideas about others, but unfortunately went wrong along the way. Case in point is the infamous skill tree. The fact that it's the same for every faction makes it quite monotonous. At least in H5, while most of the skills did the same for each faction, there were faction specific abilities thrown in as well.
Take Leadership and Necro for example. It makes no sense to take that for them because they don't benefit from morale, but in H5 there was also the Herald of Death ability tied to them specifically. If they would have just done the same for this game, it would breath a whole new life into it. At least in my opinion it would.
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infinitus
Supreme Hero
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posted September 25, 2012 04:28 PM |
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I agree almost completely about what say Depeche Mode about H6 Press to see Wrong DM
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Nothing's impossible
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=loCSLJ6IodY
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 25, 2012 04:39 PM |
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Yeah. Life Drain would have been a fine Necro-only ability, tier 2/3 for single/mass. Those undead do have a couple of advantages, after all. Leeching the Life out of living beings to revive others doesn't sound like it should be handled by anyone else.
As if it had been difficult to create interesting spells/abilities which would have been in keeping with lore/faction. For example, it is known that dead demons are respawned in Sheogh. There could have been a spell "Fast Respawning" or some stuff like that, that would make part of creatures GATED from the stack the spell was cast upon merge with the original stack (capped by initial number, staying permanently). So you would cast the spell on a stack of Succubi, gate from that stack at next (or later) opportunity, and have a number of the newly appearing creatures merge with the original stack.
Not easy to handle, but, hey, it's supposed to be a difficult game, right?
Which means, yes, a couple of ideas and concepts are good, but the skill tree as a whole is worth squat, which is the biggest letdown of the game. In my opinion. And Life Drain is a symptom of it.
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Simpelicity
Promising
Famous Hero
Video maker
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posted September 25, 2012 05:26 PM |
bonus applied by Elvin on 25 Sep 2012. |
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A very interesting and entertaining read. I mostly agree with everything, though I haven't experimented with everything.
Quote:
Also there aren't any speed 4 units so it is no longer possible to slaughter thousands of units with a single harpy.
There's actually at least one that I know of, the kappa, but he jumps. I bet the skellies are also that slow. But they shoot. So neither are relevant. But I just felt like pointing it out anyways.
Also, if I may, I'd like to add to this, on a completely different subject : lore. Keep in mind, I haven't read the extensive lore things and books of creatures and whatnot. This is just from my experience of the game.
I'll mostly have something to say about the evolution of the "old" factions, since the new ones are... well, new. Sanctuary introduced what I believe is the first faction to be inspired by eastern Asia, that in itself is commendable, but there isn't much to add to it. Orcs being based on native americans is an interesting parallel to the real world, because both are rejects in their own world, or at least treated as such.
Now for the other factions. Something I want to note globally, is that H6 moved away, in a lot of cases, from what is essentially a "classical" representation of the factions. And the 3 old factions were some of the most traditionnal, so I liked their innovation a lot and wanted to pay a little tribute to the evolution the devs had on them.
Inferno first. It was very criticized, for a few reasons. Reasonnable reasons. But there's a lot of good things to it, IMO.
First they moved away from a very christian demon faction with the simple removal of the devil. Making the (infinitely cooler) pit lord as the dominant demon de-christianized the demons, at least partially, which leaves room for more personnalized demons.
On that subject, the demon "themes" turned around mostly pain and destruction. The breeders, for all their ridiculousness, were there to add to that. Breeders are very reminiscent of cancer, in that they represent a chaotic reproduction of cells into incoherent mass of flesh. That definition applies to both breeders and cancer. The idea was good, but it was a little sad that the implementation gave such a ridiculous-looking creature.
As for the rest, dogs'll be dogs, not much to add. Juggernauts represent its destructive side well. Succubi are for lust, and more generally sex, though very obviously deviant sex. Demented and tormentors, who were accused of being very similar, actually aren't that much, tormentors are for physical pain, while demented are more a representative of madness. The units each represent a certain aspect of the demons, a certain excess. For there are excesses always. That is the demon way.
Haven is a healthy mix of medieval and roman. There isn't much evolution to it, but still. One of the less liked changes was the introduction of the glories. Personnally? I find them very reminiscent of the greek Nike, goddess of victory, which the romans of course recycled somewhere. It's actually not that out of character for Haven to be bringing out with them symbols of victory. The role of the glory fits, too. It isn't all about raw power. It helps mostly by dispelling and blinding. The damage is free, but small. They also worked a lot to affect the image of the angels. That's also, IMO, to de-christianze them. That was more or less successful, though it's said they've gone too far at times.
Necropolis is by far my favorite. By far. I just love the evolution from the ever so boring H3-style undead. That of course includes H5, but H6 just pushed it forward some more. Dragons are each a representative of sorts of their Asha aspect. Making the dead representatives of other Asha aspects as the champion of the spider Asha was a little silly, though I imagine you could reasonably explain that by the necro diaspora. Regardless, fate weavers are a brilliant creation for the spider's representative on earth, mixing the mythological fate weavers with the spider (which, like the fate weavers, spins, except that it spins a web. Still brilliant).
I also love the mix of egyptian/mesopotamian influences (civilisations that had a certain fascination for death). Love the aristocratic feel of the vampires as well, even though they don't quite fit with the theme I was just talking about. The idea is just too good though, and it "modernizes" a little what would otherwise be a very antique faction (due to the civilizations it's based on).
One last element, which might've gone mostly unnoticed : the ghouls are created by inserting in them the souls of murderers, which I imagine is to justify why you're condemning someone to that torment. But the system, as I understand it, is a certain cycle of the souls, where souls go when they die, and they eventually come out of it to be reincarnated of sorts. Necromancers regulate that cycle and when they resurrect people they pick souls out of that mess, AFAIK. And then they justify their choice by saying this soul was a bad person. If you think about it, really hard, that puts the judgement of your life (y'know, you die, you get judged whether or not you were a good person?) into the hands of the necromancers, in a way. That is disturbing, but entertaining to think about.
Bit wall-of-texty, but I hope you enjoy all the same.
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"You r the shakespeare of heroes vi, in every single battle i say: "he is gonna to loss"." - Cumulo88
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