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| Thread: Heroes VII |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Naze
Known Hero
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posted December 08, 2013 01:06 AM |
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@War-overlord
It always surprises me, how the majority of players don't like randomness in game. I agree, that H5 was a bit too random, but H6 is the other extreme - everything there is pre-calculated. And that means to me, there is no fun, because there is no thrill.
The only thing I don't understand in your argumentation is "if I want this feature, I will play a different game". Why should I have to play a different game to enjoy those game mechanics, that I like? I - personally - would like to have them all in a single perfect game. And H7 could be one, if Ubisoft tries really hard.
Other than that, thank you for your opinion. And I found your faction ideas really interesting (and elaborate) - although I have not read them all, yet.
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monere
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted December 08, 2013 03:03 AM |
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perfection doesn't exist! What may seem perfect to you it will be imperfect to others since there's so many preferences as there's living creatures (I hope I make sense).
Speaking on topic now, you are a bit too extreme for my tastes as well  ... I agree with a lot of things that you said, but I also don't want heroes to become a different game, either. It's been a strategy game since its inception and it's better if it stayed like that. I, for one, would switch maps and town screens to 2D again had I have any say in this...
Naze said:
@War-overlord
It always surprises me, how the majority of players don't like randomness in game. I agree, that H5 was a bit too random, but H6 is the other extreme - everything there is pre-calculated. And that means to me, there is no fun, because there is no thrill.
The only thing I don't understand in your argumentation is "if I want this feature, I will play a different game". Why should I have to play a different game to enjoy those game mechanics, that I like? I - personally - would like to have them all in a single perfect game. And H7 could be one, if Ubisoft tries really hard.
Other than that, thank you for your opinion. And I found your faction ideas really interesting (and elaborate) - although I have not read them all, yet.
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MattII 
Legendary Hero
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posted December 08, 2013 06:10 AM |
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Edited by MattII at 06:16, 08 Dec 2013.
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One essential thing with the town-screen designs ought to be population. H3 may have had beautiful screens, but they felt lifeless. Doesn't have to be much, some people outside the tavern, some people in the marketplace, the occasional cart rumbling along the streets, etc.
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Naze
Known Hero
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posted December 08, 2013 09:48 AM |
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@Monere
Yes, I understand that everyone has a different taste and would like to see different features in Heroes 7. But I understood War-overlord's post as "I like diplomacy and mount switching, but I don't want to have them added in H7. It's just ok, when they are in other games." That is what I don't understand - if he likes it, why doesn't he want it? 
@All
Could you also introduce your expectations wishlist for Heroes 7? I would like to see how different the tastes of people can be 
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted December 08, 2013 04:44 PM |
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Naze said:
It always surprises me, how the majority of players don't like randomness in game. I agree, that H5 was a bit too random, but H6 is the other extreme - everything there is pre-calculated. And that means to me, there is no fun, because there is no thrill.
The only thing I don't understand in your argumentation is "if I want this feature, I will play a different game". Why should I have to play a different game to enjoy those game mechanics, that I like? I - personally - would like to have them all in a single perfect game. And H7 could be one, if Ubisoft tries really hard.
Other than that, thank you for your opinion. And I found your faction ideas really interesting (and elaborate) - although I have not read them all, yet.
Yes, I understand that everyone has a different taste and would like to see different features in Heroes 7. But I understood War-overlord's post as "I like diplomacy and mount switching, but I don't want to have them added in H7. It's just ok, when they are in other games." That is what I don't understand - if he likes it, why doesn't he want it?
While I would agree that being "dealt a surprise hand of cards" has a certain thrill to it, being "dealt a sh1te hand" times upon times upon times detracts from that thrill an awefull lot. I like pre-calculation and I will experiment with different calculations. Being consequently frustrated in that effort drains the fun out of hero-building for me.
And you misunderstand the argument. I like the idea of mount switching, but the consequence of that, unless it is purely decorative which I doubt you are getting at, is that the hero is thrust into a different role. In this role, the hero actively parttakes in combat as in AoW and H4 and the different mounts change his abilities and effectiveness in that Active Combat. Active Combat has been experimented with in HoMM and it was very much disliked by me and many others. In HoMM, heroes traditionally are generals, sitting on the sideline, affecting combat passively and with occasional magic. By having heroes as Active Combatants, one would turn HoMM into something that goes against it's traditional nature.
As for the diplomacy, I stated throughout my reply to your ideas that I actively dislike it. In HoMM I actively hated having several different factions in my realm, which is why I liked town conversion so much. AoW does having several different factions less badly, but still doesn't do it well. The argument here is rather, don't go out of your way to put in things that were never any good in the first place when you've found a solution for the problem already.
As for my faction ideas. Keep reading them, many have enjoyed doing so in the past few weeks.
As for my wishlist, I have elaborated on my wishes greatly in my faction ideas and in other places in that thread and will only summarise them briefly.
1. I want the lore to be more consequent, better written and less constricted.
2. I want to be able to variate with my armies, without having to use creatures that are either neutral or from other factions.
3. I want a well balanced hero skill-system that doesn't force me to choose things I do not want.
4. I want a well balanced game economy that allows for growth instead of constraining it.
5. I want something to liven up end-game against ai. Something that makes maps less repeatative and monotonous once you've built al there is to build and have outgrown 90% of things present on the map.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted December 09, 2013 08:44 AM |
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HoMM goes against itself in every installment, town conversion too is part of this.
Doing away with morale would be just as radical and make just as much sense.
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Naze
Known Hero
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posted December 10, 2013 02:57 PM |
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Avirosb said:
HoMM goes against itself in every installment, town conversion too is part of this.
Doing away with morale would be just as radical and make just as much sense.
If it goes against itself in EVERY installment, then what is HoMM's "itself" in your opinion?
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted December 10, 2013 07:13 PM |
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By 'itself' I meant of course 'tradition pertaining to the franchise itself'.
Heroes 2 had creature upgrades, etc.
Heroes 3 had layered maps, etc.
Heroes 4 had heroes playing a more active role in combat, etc.
Heroes 5 had alternate upgrades and racials, etc.
Heroes 6 had a reputation system and town converting, etc.
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Naze
Known Hero
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posted December 10, 2013 07:33 PM |
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Well, in my opinion, it's not "going against itself", but rather "evolving", or "overstepping its own shadow"... with the exception of more active hero role, I like and approve all the innovations you have mentioned.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted December 10, 2013 10:04 PM |
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It's just that town converting makes about as much sense as a British town getting razed and replaced by a German town in the middle of England during WW2 to state an example, if you'll pardon the poor analogy.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted December 10, 2013 10:07 PM |
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You're seriously making the "It don't make sense"-argument?
Seriously, when has that ever worked?
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted December 10, 2013 10:10 PM |
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Edited by Avirosb at 22:19, 10 Dec 2013.
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It needs to make some sense, otherwise you might as well refrain from contesting stuff like heroes being active combatants.
EDIT: HoMM is a turn-based war game.
War is all about adapting, to take weaknesses and turn them into strong assets.
All of that is greatly reduced with the implementation of town conversion.
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frostymuaddib
Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
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posted December 10, 2013 10:29 PM |
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I agree with Avirosb about conversion. I'd just add that conversion somehow made the game boring to me. Every campaign mission was basically the same: capture and convert towns so you have at least one more than your enemy, and defend until you gather stronger army than your enemies. At that point you basically won.
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Naze
Known Hero
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posted December 11, 2013 12:14 AM |
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Edited by Naze at 00:24, 11 Dec 2013.
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I agree that the possibility of town conversion made it a habit to convert every town of different faction. But in older Heroes you could find another extreme - you had 4-5 towns, and each belonged to a different faction, so you could not build a solid army, because you had just too many different creatures.
This is one of the reasons I have proposed additional unit slots for Heroes (that War-Overlord did not like ). You would have the opportunity to enrich your army with units from different factions. Yet, your potential to mass your own faction army would not be decreased, because there would be enough slots for all your "racial" units.
Specially @Avirosb
Games are GAMES, not reality. Just its model, or simplification. If town conversion does not make sense, then adding 250 warriors every Monday does not make sense either. Neither building a whole castle in one day. Neither making your actions, while others have to wait. Neither the amount of resources (what about food, water, different types of wood, metals, rocks, etc...). Neither the square map. Neither the inability to negotiate with your enemies, or assassinate their leaders. And I could go on and on.
Please, don't take it personally - but your argument just does not make sense.
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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted December 11, 2013 12:29 AM |
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Although I really liked town conversion, the way it was implemented was very... simple. It did end up to be 'grab a town, convert it'. I feel it would have been a bit better if the cost to convert was more expensive, and probably a couple of days in length instead of instantaneous. That way you would have to think about going through with it, make it more of an investment.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted December 11, 2013 01:06 AM |
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Edited by Avirosb at 01:08, 11 Dec 2013.
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Naze said:
Specially @Avirosb
Games are GAMES, not reality. Just its model, or simplification. If town conversion does not make sense, then adding 250 warriors every Monday does not make sense either. Neither building a whole castle in one day. Neither making your actions, while others have to wait. Neither the amount of resources (what about food, water, different types of wood, metals, rocks, etc...). Neither the square map. Neither the inability to negotiate with your enemies, or assassinate their leaders. And I could go on and on.
Please, don't take it personally - but your argument just does not make sense.
It doesn't have to, because I'm not actively trying to convince you that I'm right. It all boils down to opinion.
It's a game mechanic that I find to be pointless as there are never a time you would NOT choose to convert your town.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted December 11, 2013 07:33 AM |
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If they made the conversion take 3 days (plus 1 day for every two buildings they had to knock down), and you lost all town defences but the wall for the duration you might think twice about converting a town as soon as you got it, because a big army would then not struggle as much to retake it and cancel the conversion (if they wanted to).
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 11, 2013 09:39 AM |
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COnversion didn't work that well in H6. On one hand it equalizes things when someone gets a native neutral town and the other doesn't but 1) that is a mapmaking or RMG issue 2) it works against having diverse armies. Some of my best games throughout the series were with mixed armies and H6 diminished that possibility. This could be balanced through cost and time but I just find the alternative more fun..
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted December 11, 2013 10:05 AM |
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Agreed, town conversions were poorly implemented in HoMM6. They introduced the concept in HoMM5, when Markal converted several Mage towns to Necropoli, but it came at an immense expense of resources.
Town conversions could work, but in my opinion, needs to be a multi-day experience as well as cost a large amount of resources. Balancing would dictate the exact conversion time and resource investment (which should depend on number of town buildings present at the time of conversion).
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frostymuaddib
Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
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posted December 11, 2013 10:45 AM |
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I'm certain that conversion could be implemented better, but I still think that it kills an aspect of the game that I like. Mixing troops with different alignment, and deciding which troops to take which to leave behind, taking care of moral issues are things that made the game a little more difficult, and I liked that.
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