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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Announcements, Questions, Features
Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Announcements, Questions, Features This Popular Thread is 324 pages long: 1 40 80 120 160 200 240 280 ... 290 291 292 293 294 ... 320 324 · «PREV / NEXT»
OrrinIsTheBest
OrrinIsTheBest


Known Hero
posted March 18, 2018 11:10 AM

Alyx182008 said:


As for HoTA's commitment to preserve the random factor, I'll quote Docent_Picolan when he says that "The new mechanic is lacking the random factor" is seen as an advantage. So it does seem that randomness was seen as a detriment.

Edit: As for how illogical I see the HoTA Resistance skill, imagine if Offense Skill was remade to reduce the opponent's Defense, or if Armorer were to reduce the opponent's Attack.

Yeah he stated the randomness problem first and black orb thing second - might be true. Regardless, any skill that can become completely useless by presence of an artifact should be reworked,even if it means modding the core elements of the original game. In addition to that,i believe, HotA's vision is to make the game as balanced as possible in terms of multiplayer while keeping the spirit of original product,not making sure that some broken-ass stuff like necromancy or firebird growth remains untouched. If you were really concerned about preserving the true elements of homm3 you'd stop playing HotA when those 2 super fun things were taken out of the game.
In addition to that,i 100% agree that this crap doesn't match with the skill name and is totally unrealistic even for a game like this. Just taking one test into account- where  20th lvl Thorgrim with resist combo dropping any spell power to 1, im sure they will come up with a better plan in upcoming patches. For now either help them with this by more bright ideas or don't comment at all. Because they are determined to make major changes (as to my belief,which are needed) and the best thing you can do about it is to contribute.

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frostymuaddib
frostymuaddib


Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
posted March 18, 2018 11:15 AM

Galaad said:
Despite obvious quality work, since 1.5 I feel Hota is another mod and not h3's expansion any longer. In my opinion the original classical gameplay spirit has been lost in a small competitive niche of players not wanting/liking to deal with the random element of the game.
As a result I don't want to play it anymore, and I also don't wish for new towns any longer since they redlight any kind of port to other modding platforms.


My thoughts exactly (just written in a better way ). That is why I returned to H5.

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just0
just0


Adventuring Hero
posted March 18, 2018 11:20 AM
Edited by just0 at 11:21, 18 Mar 2018.

Resistance should affect spells cast on allied troops only. Otherwise it needs to be renamed "Magical Interference Projection" or something.

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thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted March 18, 2018 11:22 AM
Edited by thGryphn at 11:28, 18 Mar 2018.

I agree with the critical sentiment here about the new "resistance" skill. It's no longer "resistance" to enemy magic, it is "suppression" of all enemy magic akin to "shatter magic" skill in Heroes V. While Shatter skills work fine in Heroes V as they are designed for a single faction, the same idea replacing magic resistance is really apples to oranges.

Further, I too was under the impression that HotA team was adamant about changing Heroes III mechanics when people were getting blunt responses as they were proposing changes to skills that require fixes more urgently. The self-contradiction is striking here because this is a major change in game dynamics.

Furthermore, it seems this change is only a small part of a sea of change in "Magic" in HOMM 3... which makes me think that it was probably better to cook up all the changes in mind in the kitchen and release them all at once, instead of releasing them part by part, especially if they only make sense altogether, which I believe to be the case here. This change alone just doesn't make the fullest sense but the full package might very well; I don't think you did yourselves a service in winning over a conservative crowd such as Heroes III players by coming up with less than the full implementation of your idea. Even then (after the full implementation) though, you will probably have transformed the game drastically and some resistance will be inevitable.

I for one am a very open-minded Heroes fan (I even loved Heroes IV, lol, and can't get enough of MMH5.5). I can look past the self-contradiction but just give me the full package...

Edit: Until all changes in the overarching plan is done, why don't you call these releases "Beta"? After 1.5.1, I mean...


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Alyx182008
Alyx182008


Hired Hero
posted March 18, 2018 11:26 AM

OrrinIsTheBest said:
... or don't comment at all.


That is probably the least productive thing you could have said, and I find it slightly insulting too (although I don't think you meant it that way). You might have just said "don't give negative feedback".
Neither a person nor a product can grow without feedback and sincere opinions, especially the negative ones. And even if the person giving the criticism can't come up with the perfect answer, or an answer at all, someone else might be able to find it. But if the criticism isn't given, why look for the solution at all?

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Hourglass
Hourglass


Adventuring Hero
posted March 18, 2018 11:37 AM
Edited by Hourglass at 11:41, 18 Mar 2018.

Wow, this escalated quickly.

All I see now that, one rarely picked secondary skill was changed to something different that it used to be, and people here are like tossing tomatoes and bottles.

I'm not really seeing why banning the game altogether would be a wise thing to do, especially if there are other things in Hota that people enjoy.

Even Hota is a unoffical expansion to the game, the rules of modding still apply: Modders create, and the community tests it and leaves feedback about the work. I've hard time beliving that nothing more than some quick tests by the players were done to see how these things take place.

The best way to change things would be actually play the game, and leave constructive feedback, if something is not right.

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revolut1oN
revolut1oN


Famous Hero
posted March 18, 2018 11:41 AM
Edited by revolut1oN at 11:43, 18 Mar 2018.

I for instance like this change a lot.

It is indeed aiming for more balanced competitive gameplay and well, at least for me, it does indeed fulfill that goal. Lately meta game became implosion/armageddon bash and armies were basically on the second plan all the time. Nowadays MP is 99% Jebus Cross, and there army basically serves you as a tool to get the most important spells and artifacts, then its not so important anymore when you can summon 100 elementals each turn and bash powerstacks with spells like 3k damage implosion. The competitive scene is not small niche like many of you said, since for example lately in Championship of Poland we had like 800+ participants.

It does indeed benefit the multiplayer experience a lot, people playing singleplayer on the other hand shouldn't mind that too much - its a breath of fresh air and when playing versus computer and on casual level of playing it doesn't matter anyway.

The only problem I can see is compatibility with custom made maps which are built around certain patterns. Maybe mapmaker should be able to have an option to "lock" skill and spell balance type when making map - either original SoD or HotA one. The one chosen would be used when playing the map.

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frostymuaddib
frostymuaddib


Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
posted March 18, 2018 11:43 AM
Edited by frostymuaddib at 11:45, 18 Mar 2018.

Hourglass said:

I'm not really seeing why banning the game altogether would be a wise thing to do, especially if there are other things in Hota that people enjoy.


Why would someone ban the game? Everyone is free to play whatever he likes (games and mods). So if someone likes recent Hota changes, he can continue playing the mod and enjoy it. If someone dislikes the changes, he can stop playing and no harm done

As for feedback, everyone has right to say what he thinks. So things like 'don't comment at all' or 'keep it for yourself' concerning people's opinion are out of place here. This is forum, people should discuss things

And negative feedbeck is not always a bad thing. Sometimes it gives you more information than positive feedback.

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dydzio
dydzio


Hired Hero
posted March 18, 2018 12:15 PM
Edited by dydzio at 12:16, 18 Mar 2018.

Galaad said:
Despite obvious quality work, since 1.5 I feel Hota is another mod and not h3's expansion any longer. In my opinion the original classical gameplay spirit has been lost in a small competitive niche of players not wanting/liking to deal with the random element of the game.
As a result I don't want to play it anymore, and I also don't wish for new towns any longer since they redlight any kind of port to other modding platforms.


I second that. I only hope in ERA and VCMI now.

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pellish
pellish


Famous Hero
posted March 18, 2018 12:26 PM
Edited by pellish at 12:28, 18 Mar 2018.

frostymuaddib said:
And negative feedbeck is not always a bad thing. Sometimes it gives you more information than positive feedback.


People saying that they quit playing HotA altogether because of the HotA Crew realizing their ideas of polishing H3's balancing is not negative feedback. It's more akin to extortion if anything.

They are given no choice if they want these people to keep playing. What are they supposed to do about this "feedback"? Revert back to 1.5.1?

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StrikerX
StrikerX


Known Hero
The Bringer of Rain
posted March 18, 2018 12:28 PM
Edited by StrikerX at 12:38, 18 Mar 2018.

Hourglass said:
Wow, this escalated quickly.

All I see now that, one rarely picked secondary skill was changed to something different that it used to be, and people here are like tossing tomatoes and bottles.


LOL

It's wierd, I never would pick resistance unless forced usually but I still feel like I don't want to upgrade to the newest version because it's changed.  It's just something we have to get use to.  I'm thinking it will probably be better with being able to lower a powerful spellcaster's power with resistance + artifacts on a permanent basis but I still see it as a big penalty to avoiding mass slow where as before if one fast creature got lucky and avoided slow you could instantly counter mass slow and not have your entire army wiped before you get a chance to cast a spell.  Then again I rarely picked the skill but it helped the AI alot when they had it and that happened.

I think the best alternative would be to use both mechanic's on debuff skills like Mass slow that would still give a chance to resist the spell altogether (current chance rates without the raised effects of resistance artifacts), otherwise it will still lower the amount of rounds.    

As far as giving up on HotA because of it.. Never  Though I'm not a fan of the future updates they have planned in "rebalancing".  I guess we'll see how they turn out.

H3's AI is still far superior to H5 and 20 times faster even on Giant maps and with Hota's template editor it's possible to create great random maps.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted March 18, 2018 12:32 PM
Edited by Galaad at 12:35, 18 Mar 2018.

pellish said:
People saying that they quit playing HotA altogether because of the HotA Crew realizing their ideas of polishing H3's balancing is not negative feedback. It's more akin to extortion if anything.


I'm not making any extortion, I just say the reason why I stop playing it. The elements that are being suppressed and toned-downed are part of the magic of the game to me. I realize there is other players thinking differently.

On top of it the OP states that:

Quote:
We try to keep classical h3 spirit in every tiny detail from code nuances to overall gameplay. Be welcome to check if we’ve succeeded


So in my opinion they haven't, what is wrong in telling them?
____________
He JVC taught us how to use skeletons. -Ghost

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Orrinisthebest
Orrinisthebest


Known Hero
posted March 18, 2018 12:33 PM

Alyx182008 said:
OrrinIsTheBest said:
... or don't comment at all.


That is probably the least productive thing you could have said, and I find it slightly insulting too (although I don't think you meant it that way). You might have just said "don't give negative feedback".
Neither a person nor a product can grow without feedback and sincere opinions, especially the negative ones. And even if the person giving the criticism can't come up with the perfect answer, or an answer at all, someone else might be able to find it. But if the criticism isn't given, why look for the solution at all?

Sorry, i meant don't give futile criticism .. Like it was obvious from certain times that these things are gonna happen. This is why i want you all to focus on working with the team instead of complain about stuff that is never gonna get back to its old form. Or simply just be the guy who complained about the plan of reworking eagle eye/mysticism because he thinks bad luck is something that shouldn't be taken away from game lol.

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Popcioslav
Popcioslav


Hired Hero
The best H4 unit
posted March 18, 2018 12:33 PM
Edited by Popcioslav at 12:40, 18 Mar 2018.

Alright so by far this is the most controversial patch since probably ... release of Cove itself?

Before I begin with saying why I don't like the Resistance as it is right now, I have one question.

Why couldn't you keep the original mechanic for status spells (Like Slow for example) and keep the new and revised version for damaging and/or scaling spells? I think with proper numbers that could've been more easily balanced and yes, I understand two things:

- HotA Crew wants to keep the game more multiplayer focused and remove as much of the RNG as possible.

- HotA Crew wants to make more Magic Heroes viable.

And I think both are legitimately good goals, but I really don't like the way it's implemented so far. For starters, yes, one of the reasons why Magic Heroes are not as good as Might heroes is because there are a lot of secondary skills better on Might heroes or just countering Magic heroes entirely. However that's only like 1/8th of the problem. As people have pointed it out instead nerfing or working on reworks for stuff like Resistance first, why not focus on skills related to magic? Eagle Eye, Misticism, Scholar, Sorcery... maybe it's just me, but starting these new major balance changes with Resistance first feels kind of like a slap on the wrist.

I honestly would've said I'd rather stay on the previous two patches, but...
Docent_Picolan said:

[+] A new highlands spruce tree has been added



Best patch, 10/10

Well anyways, my job here is done for now, I'll test out the new changes with every Resistance speciality hero and try out the new maps. Hopefuly by then I'll be thinking the same way devs are thinking right now.

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dydzio
dydzio


Hired Hero
posted March 18, 2018 12:35 PM
Edited by dydzio at 12:40, 18 Mar 2018.

pellish said:
They are given no choice if they want these people to keep playing. What are they supposed to do about this "feedback"? Revert back to 1.5.1?


Simply make checkbox/checkboxes in launcher for mechanics changes to turn them off

OrrinIsTheBest said:
HotA's vision is to make the game as balanced as possible in terms of multiplayer while keeping the spirit of original product,not making sure that some broken-ass stuff like necromancy or firebird growth remains untouched. If you were really concerned about preserving the true elements of homm3 you'd stop playing HotA when those 2 super fun things were taken out of the game.


I stopped at that time.

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frostymuaddib
frostymuaddib


Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
posted March 18, 2018 12:41 PM

pellish said:
frostymuaddib said:
And negative feedbeck is not always a bad thing. Sometimes it gives you more information than positive feedback.


People saying that they quit playing HotA altogether because of the HotA Crew realizing their ideas of polishing H3's balancing is not negative feedback. It's more akin to extortion if anything.

They are given no choice if they want these people to keep playing. What are they supposed to do about this "feedback"? Revert back to 1.5.1?


They can do what they want, and they are doing that. It is my right to say that I dislike what they did. And that is not feedback, that is my point of view. I was talking about negative feedback, not stating what you dislike. They are free to ignore my posts, but I'm free to write them.

And as Galaad said, this is no extortion.

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dydzio
dydzio


Hired Hero
posted March 18, 2018 12:50 PM
Edited by dydzio at 12:59, 18 Mar 2018.

Well, HoTA does not feel like expansion anymore, but just mod like WoG with just one script "Radical balance changes" that cannot be turned off. This is not what I expected since tracking the progress of the mod before first alpha/beta version got released... And not what other people expected as well, from promises of "making natural expansion that is not what wog was". I expected mostly work of 3d modelers with programmers used to break game limits. I expected adding new towns, units, buildings, campaigns etc. With 2 new towns HoTA would be super beefed gameplay step up, comparable with RoE to Complete edition upgrade. I think they ended up developing the mod in completely another direction at some point due to lack of 3d modelling manpower and "hardware failures that consumed lots of hard work for new towns" while having stable amount of programming manpower.

Also, closed nature of HotA project does not help in making it reliably survivable. Based on info I received from someone else - releasing project to the public when they stop working on it might be against their plans to rely on HotA/HD mod code being inavailable to help ensuring less multiplayer cheating

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StrikerX
StrikerX


Known Hero
The Bringer of Rain
posted March 18, 2018 02:02 PM

dydzio said:

OrrinIsTheBest said:
HotA's vision is to make the game as balanced as possible in terms of multiplayer while keeping the spirit of original product,not making sure that some broken-ass stuff like necromancy or firebird growth remains untouched. If you were really concerned about preserving the true elements of homm3 you'd stop playing HotA when those 2 super fun things were taken out of the game.


I stopped at that time.


I ban necro and conflux towns and still have 8 good factions to play with.  I think HotA is about perfect as it is now.

I would play with necro's but I can't stand cover of darkness and currently there is no way to disable it in there towns automatically if a random town becomes Necropolis.

I would love some way of disabling that building altogether.

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nik312
nik312


Promising
Famous Hero
posted March 18, 2018 02:05 PM

Quote:
Wow, this escalated quickly.


Yeah, that's one way of putting it...

It really seems to me that people take this change for a lot more than it is. This is not a sign of "eliminating any random factor from the game", this is not a sign of "totally destroying all the other skills and magic" - Resistance is a unique example of a skill so fundamentally harmful for the game that it needs to change completely.

It is not just the  "random factor" that is bad in itself (although there is quite enough of randomness in heroes already) - it is the power of that random. The difference between successful proc and a miss is quite often the whole game. It's almost impossible to recover after a lucky 10% proc against your implosion or blindness. That also means, that the correct strategy involved in utilizing this in single-player is A TON of reloads until you get that one lucky proc.

That is why the old resistance had to go.
And about why we consider the new version better than all other ones (and we have truly reviewed ALL of them) - there is a detailed enough explanation in the post.

Also, it kinda seems to me that noone really read the explanations, since noone seemed to even notice this:
Quote:
In order to allow the players to compare the two mechanics and appreciate the advantages of the new one, we introduced the test version option in the HotA 1.5.3 launcher. With it enabled, the game will employ the old Resistance mechanic.

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Hourglass
Hourglass


Adventuring Hero
posted March 18, 2018 02:14 PM

frostymuaddib said:
Hourglass said:

I'm not really seeing why banning the game altogether would be a wise thing to do, especially if there are other things in Hota that people enjoy.


Why would someone ban the game? Everyone is free to play whatever he likes (games and mods). So if someone likes recent Hota changes, he can continue playing the mod and enjoy it. If someone dislikes the changes, he can stop playing and no harm done

As for feedback, everyone has right to say what he thinks. So things like 'don't comment at all' or 'keep it for yourself' concerning people's opinion are out of place here. This is forum, people should discuss things

And negative feedbeck is not always a bad thing. Sometimes it gives you more information than positive feedback.


By banning I meant that some people are no longer in intrest of playing (current version) of Hota.

Everyone indeed has the right to express their opinions about anything related to Hota. It's just I think stating something such as they "Hota failed to do X" or "I'm done with this" is not something I personally consider as constructive feedback. Especially when the changes were done yesterday, so it's unlikely that someone have even done anything more than small tests by theirselfs.

I personally think their reasoning behind the change was justifiable the way Docent Picolan and Sav present it few pages back. They even gave us a way to finish old maps with the classic version of resistance - a feature that's unheard of in the history of Hota. That's incredibly nice from their part, as I consider the change they made rather small compared to the other big changes they have done in the past (necromancy, DD and conflux nerfs mainly)

While this change is mainly meant for multiplayer, I don't see how it really lessens the singleplayer experience? When I play single player on random maps, I don't pick resistance, 'cos there are better secondary skills against AI. If I want to play a custom map where having the classic resistance is a (semi)mandarory, I can perhaps play that map with another mod, with an old version of Hota or even in SOD enviroment.

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