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Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted June 20, 2022 07:43 AM |
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We are getting old, while waiting for Factory.
Get your wheelchairs, plaids and fake teeth ready boys.
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avatar
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted June 20, 2022 09:17 AM |
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Edited by avatar at 09:21, 20 Jun 2022.
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NimoStar said:
And we do know that they ARE so slow, they said graphics was the slowest part and iterating/animating the town screen
No 'they' said only 'he' said.
StrangeFin said:
From the Russian Forum, Update from Lentiai:
As for the news, I can say in my part. The city screen is 98% ready. 2% - the remaining edits of the heel and a couple of other little things.
It means that Lentiai is only a graphic guy, not a coder. We have zero knowledge about coding progress. Townscreen or creature graphics rarely lead to crashes. Bad written code or not finished code - will give us numerous bugs, freezes and crashes. We all remember almost unplayable 1.6.0 patch.
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aztorin5
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 20, 2022 11:00 AM |
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Doomforge said:
aztorin5 said:
I think that most of the people honestly waiting for announcement from developers that they finally abandon "Project Factory".
Now that is a bold statement. Did you do any research to back it up?
Last time I checked Hota reddit, people were absolutely hyped about the new town.
Can't wait for it myself.
I said that Factory was unnecessary and nobody demand it.
What was general feedback from the community before official Factory announcement? Was it "hey Hota Crew, give us another city" or maybe "Hey Hota Crew, consider magic rebalance and try to make some secondary skills more useful"? Hype is different aspect but, indirectly, due to that hype since two years we don't have any progress with Hota white Factory anyway will not appear. Lose-Lose situation.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted June 20, 2022 11:18 AM |
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Hota team announced both of those things (new city and secondary skill tweaking). It was Docent's tragic death that screwed things up for them. Hard to blame them. I am personally happy they are trying to preserve his work and legacy this way. It's not like HOTA is currently unplayable without the Factory (or with Eagle Eye sucking butt).
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Opera
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 20, 2022 12:08 PM |
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Yes before anouce of Factory was many questions about new faction to Heroes 3 and mostly was asking about Forge town in DF2 forum and VK soo yes. Factory is needed and many people still enjoy to play new storylines more than balance of skills. Yes Factory must be finished for Docent legacy too and idea also after rellease of Factory rework skills will come
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted June 20, 2022 12:13 PM |
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I honestly don't think being able to pick Eagle Eye or Learning would be THAT awesome compared to being able to play a full-blown, Hota-hard campaign on Impossible difficulty. The former is just a nice bonus, the latter is awesome.
Also, playing new town is also awesome, much more than double percentages in Learning skill or whatever.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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mitsche91
Hired Hero
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posted June 20, 2022 02:07 PM |
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Well...I have to say I cannot understand all of this displeasure. Almost everyone here likes or loves what HotA brought to Heroes III. Since Factory was anounced the whole community waits excited. But we must not forget neither the tragical loss, nor the fact the HotA team isn't a big publisher like Ubisoft which earns much money for developing games and stuff like that. The HotA team works while they have their own real lives and jobs. We should be glad about what they did and hopefully wait for what they planned. Before someone wants to complain or blame, this person should create a mod like this with all the wanted features in free time by himself/herself.
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aztorin5
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 20, 2022 02:11 PM |
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Doomforge said:
I honestly don't think being able to pick Eagle Eye or Learning would be THAT awesome compared to being able to play a full-blown, Hota-hard campaign on Impossible difficulty. The former is just a nice bonus, the latter is awesome.
Also, playing new town is also awesome, much more than double percentages in Learning skill or whatever.
Doomforge said:
I honestly don't think being able to pick Eagle Eye or Learning would be THAT awesome compared to being able to play a full-blown, Hota-hard campaign on Impossible difficulty. The former is just a nice bonus, the latter is awesome.
Also, playing new town is also awesome, much more than double percentages in Learning skill or whatever.
You don't understand. In my opinion, playable Eagle Eye, Learning etc. and balance magic is better than nothing (or maybe i should say "nothing with Factory on unavailable horizon"). Hota Crew should just abandon dreams and focus on possible improvements - it will be better for everyone, especially for devs.
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Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted June 20, 2022 02:23 PM |
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Doomforge said:
I honestly don't think being able to pick Eagle Eye or Learning would be THAT awesome compared to being able to play a full-blown, Hota-hard campaign on Impossible difficulty. The former is just a nice bonus, the latter is awesome.
The difference is skills (and spells) could be tweaked in 5 minutes, making Factory takes ~ 5 years...
HotA for some reason still has the crappy, old Learning, Eagle Eye, First Aid and Sorcery, while they could easily have made these skills at least decent 10 years ago.
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shev441
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 20, 2022 07:23 PM |
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For sure there is a high demand on new city. Based on lots of questions and post that were about new city/return of forge/cathedral/krownwerk early concepts before Factory trailer. Also since 2019 questions about Factory pop up very often. After all it was Cove that sparked an interest in community about HoraA. I am also a person that feels like adding new city will be huge. 16 new units, 16 new heroes, new mechanics maybe arts...
So to say that noone wants Factory is really dumb thing to say.
On the other hand I also do not understand why Hota Crew wont release small updates while creation of Factory takes place.
In my opinion Hota would be more playable /popular if every half a year or more often they would make new version 1.6.2 , 1.6.3 .... where they could work on small tweaks like :
-numbers in secondary skills (buff Sorcery and other skills that can be upgraded easy and do not require total change like eagle eye)
-creatures values (how much of them spawns on map )
-spells (some are to op, some are just awful)
-arts (there are some arts that are bad like those that add +1 resource/day in same tier as sword that gives +6 attack)
Maybe they thought that FActory will be finished sooner - like 2021 and thats why they did not intend to make another 1.6.x update and wait for 1.7
Still as Factory is deley and delay , lack of any update hurts even more.
Hota creates awesome content so for sure I'll play next update day 1.
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avatar
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted June 20, 2022 09:55 PM |
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shev441 said:
On the other hand I also do not understand why Hota Crew wont release small updates while creation of Factory takes place.
Because even small updates need programming skills with reverse engeneering. More, those updates must be compatible with planned Factory. It means lots of coding, coding, coding and testing with all Factory future features.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted June 20, 2022 10:09 PM |
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If they give two craps about the community, the amount of work required just to finetune the terrible secondary skills is HUGE. You basically need to tweak the numbers (preferably one at a time), then release a beta to the "supertesters" (a selected group of good players who volunteered to test the changes), then gather their feedback, then analyze it, then make further tweaks if necessary (and repeat the process).
And we know they do care about player feedback regarding state of competitive play, so that's what they'll most likely be doing.
So it's not a matter of cranking a few numbers up and calling it a day. Tho you probably could do that for some of the skills without much problems, they are that bad. Like, learning.
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted June 21, 2022 01:37 AM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 01:40, 21 Jun 2022.
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Quote:
Bad written code or not finished code - will give us numerous bugs, freezes and crashes. We all remember almost unplayable 1.6.0 patch.
So, more argumnt for just rebalance before pie-in-the-sky western city
Doomforge you are ridiculous. Really, need uber testing to double Learning? They already released the double learning witch YEARS ago and nobody picks her, because she's still terrible.
Eagle eye coudn't be 70-85-100% of 1-3/4/5th level spells and all specialist changed to literally anything else? Would anybody bat an eye, would balance be destroyed. Laughtable.
Come on, stop being such a predictable apologist. We all know that isn't the truth and yes, it is just tweaking some numbers.
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Never changing = never improving
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted June 21, 2022 05:57 AM |
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Learning should be replaced Stealth. Stealth idea was Vlaad. Remember jungle, when only heroes with a few of creatures or none are useless in H4. Useful becomes heroes with Stealth, because of 10k experience point : an example of 4 heroes are 2500, so slow to reach Combat class, they only played Wisdom with, when complete Combat and Wisdom needs 38lvl. So stealth helped much. If HotA changes Stealth. It speaks to the future. If not, so Expert 50% plus 5% Specialty or adds on Learning artifacts.
Eagle Eye, you can't do better, so the last HotA's hand. Because of Eagle Eye belonged to walkthrough, an example of WoG MOD, you haven't a town, you don't need a town. You fight against enemies, you get a Spells. Funny! Think about H4 can play without towns, I mean map hasn't towns. Ok but H3 and H4 were missing or messing something, when true hero can't use a Spell, if hero hasn't Expert Wisdom or Water. H4 you can give all spells to hero, but hero can't use them without skills. Eagle Eye can use them. Remember Eagle Eye artifact gives Eagle Eye skill is better than Secondary Skill, but it's WoG.
So 8 Mighty Kings - map, you can't find Tomes, heroes with spells, etc Only Tower heroes have Air spells on their handbook, you can't buy them nor finds their Mage Guilds, thus empty. You need Eagle Eye and map is a Walkthrough variation, a mythical rare map and H4 style. Later on I make a map before I know what HotA plans Eagle Eye. If the same, so I will show at players, if something, so I make a WoG. Because I'm..
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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VMaiko
Known Hero
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posted June 21, 2022 07:58 AM |
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This dispute will never end if there are no official announcements from above without the need for third parties publishing dubious news, right? There is a lot to improve in HotA and the game is still incomplete, let's take as an example Steel Golem without dwelling or Wasteland without any real use, the most likely thing is that the project will be frozen forever and the crew will make a pact of silence thinking that no we'll find out.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted June 21, 2022 09:30 AM |
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NimoStar said:
We all know that isn't the truth and yes, it is just tweaking some numbers.
That is the common practice everywhere. Even old hack and slash games like Titan Quest follow the same procedure of test servers, gathering feedback and then releasing it to the public, although they are single player non-competitive games and nobody gives a damn.
Competitive games need more time, else you can completely break the game by missing something that is not immediately obvious. Heck, Hota itself did that with 1.6.0 update, though it was a bug in the game that slipped past testing, not the "meta" itself.
So no, I'm not ridiculous at all, that's how a serious company approaches balancing a competitive video game. And it takes time. Lots of it. Saying it's just numbers tweaking and blind releasing reeks of amateurish nonsense that has no place for any company, group or whatever that tries to be serious at what it is doing.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted June 21, 2022 10:01 AM |
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What?, are you afraid Learning is suddenly going to become better than Earth Magic or Eagle Eye becoming better than Logistics?
The goal was to make the skills decent as opposed to complete trash like they are now. I don't even see how it would be possible to make them any better than below average-average skills.
You think HotA spend months or years with "elite testers" before cutting Necromancy and Intelligence in half? Or making Mysticism 4,67 times better than before or doubling Estates? I HIGHLY doubt that.
Just improve the skills already, it's about damn time.
Might consider doing something about Pathfinding and Ballistics as well, there are too many situations where they do nothing.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted June 21, 2022 10:21 AM |
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Nah, not afraid of Learning. I've stated before that you could indeed slap +100% on Learning and it would probably still suck so it's pretty safe.
But introducing a new competitive skill (say, Interference) should be playtested by the veterans, otherwise you may get something that is utterly unfun at best (ie. must have, unhealthy for gameplay etc.) or downright gamebreaking at worst (ie. bugged in a nasty way).
And if you want to do proper testing, you need time. That's all. IF it was done like you guys are suggesting - "just x2 and voila" - it would be amateurish garbage. Do you want that? I certainly don't.
No amount of percentage tweaking will fix ie. Eagle Eye. A new mechanic has to be introduced, and it should be properly playtested.
So no, you can't release a secondary skill fix (that isn't half-assed) right away, it should take a while for the sake of the players.
There's nothing apologetic about it, it's just common sense.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted June 21, 2022 11:21 AM |
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Okay let's look at the skills one by one:
Learning:
We both agree it would take a lot to go overboard with this skill.
In my game it's 15/30/45. By no means that makes it a must have skill, but it is at least better than before and if you start with it it's quite alright. It can help you reach Library of Enligtenment earlier and certain Quest Guards might require you to be a certain level etc. (I do not like HotA's Learning specialist however, a Learning specialist should never a have been a thing.)
I think 15/30/45 is quite alrigtht, it could perhaps even be 20/40/60 or 25/50/75 as well or it could have an additional effect with giving extra stat points, need to be careful, with not going overboard with this however.
Sorcery:
Another skill that could easily be fixed by just changing some numbers.
In my game it's 6,67/13,33/20 it could perhaps also be 8,33/16,67/25 or 10/20/30, but I don't really want to do that, as that would put even more focus on the damage spells.
I would rather Sorcery affected spell power directly, like an opposite version of Interference.
Eagle Eye:
In my game it's level 3/4/5 spells and 70% at all levels. You could perhaps even make it 100% at all levels, but then you would have to get rid of Eagle Eye artifacts and specialists, but nobody would probably miss them anyway.
I would rather the skill was able to pick up spells from enemy creatures and learning the spells DURING combat, not after.
First Aid:
I made the tent as durable as ballista/cannon, made the tent always heal max and increased the hp it heals.
It's still not very good, but at least better than before.
I think the best thing for First Aid, is if it was able to mass heal. There were thoughts of it resurrecting/animating in the past, but it might be possible to abuse this ability or else it should have limited uses per combat, for example 3 times, after that it would only heal.
Ballistics:
I have not changed this skill at all, but I would like for it to have an additional effect like Artillery and arrow towers.
This skill ONLY takes effect when you attack towns, which is like 1% of all combat, not very useful. (AI needs the skill badly though and it also usually picks it.)
Pathfinding:
I have not changed this skill either, but there are too many artifacts, spells and other things that ruins the skill. It should also have an additional effect. Was it Heroes 4 or 5 where you could have a skill that let you pick up resources, without taking movement points, maybe something like that could be considered or Angel Wings and Pathfinding boots could be banned.
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aztorin5
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 21, 2022 12:01 PM |
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Doomforge said:
But introducing a new competitive skill (say, Interference) should be playtested by the veterans, otherwise you may get something that is utterly unfun at best (ie. must have, unhealthy for gameplay etc.) or downright gamebreaking at worst (ie. bugged in a nasty way).
And if you want to do proper testing, you need time. That's all.
Then multiply it by 1000, and you'll get Factory which means endless waiting room, without Docent knowledge and determination.
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