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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Politics in the U.S.
Thread: Politics in the U.S. This Popular Thread is 141 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 30 60 90 120 ... 137 138 139 140 141 · «PREV / NEXT»
Zenofex
Zenofex


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Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted July 31, 2020 04:29 PM
Edited by Zenofex at 16:35, 31 Jul 2020.

JollyJoker said:
Your post is just a bag of hot wind.

You cannot explain away the hefty excess mortality. COLLATERAL DAMAGE? In that magnitude? Nonsense. Another virus? Ever heard of Occam's Razor? The dead are there. Did they really fall victim to the virus? Yes, of course. Maybe not EVERY SINGLE ONE of them. But MOSTLY. Excess mortality leaves no other explanation.
Also: you talk about flu. You DID notice, that flu has a season, right? That flu isn't really liking warm weather and UV rays. Covid, though? It's summer and in the whole of America the numbers of infected are exploding.

Also: You cannot explain away the fact that CHINA (the probable land of origin) RIGOROUSLY locks down every area where people are tested positive. CHINA? Really? Are we talking about the China that has no problem with hurting the environment in favor of economic growth, although this has clearly a detrimental effect on the health of the Chinese people. But with that virus they are extremely cautious.
You wouldn't expect this, wouldn't you?

And that is all not even THAT important when it comes to judging the work of a government with regard to handling the situation.

The US were in a situation where they had a lot of data from Europe, PLUS, they had a regionally rather limited first outbreak with them which means they had a lot of information available to them. Whatever happened until then, but two months ago, EVERY responsible member of any government of the US should have made it mandatory to wear a mask in closed rooms (except their own home) and in all situations where you cannot keep distance. Including singing in church.
Alternatively, they might have at least SUGGESTED this - and give an example.

They didn't. On the contrary. And that's just a big failure. There is no denying that.

Yeah, flu has a "season" and what do you know, part of that excess mortality in Europe is during that season. Yet it's attributed exclusively to the novel virus which has 75 to 100% identical symptoms depending on the case and cannot be distinguished when examining a corpse. Cared to check that previous link I posted that shows such excess mortality is nothing new for Europe during winter? I can give you more if you want, including for Germany (in fact, I've already gave you one from RKI which you passed by). That excess mortality is a bare number, if it has already been recorded as an event in previous years that it can reach similar values just from "standard flu" epidemic, where is your evidence that it has not been the case here as well, plus the collateral damage from the poorly to completely unplanned lockdowns? Give me something worth reading from a reputable source instead of playing the master of the hidden knowledge who actually doesn't know anything.

China's lockdowns aren't that easy to investigate as the information coming from there isn't reliable enough, however the party leaders did make use of the situation. Whether they enforced the lockdowns and manipulated the number of the fatalities so they can easily dispose of local leaders which were not in line with current central doctrine - obviously I don't know. Neither do you. It's not that bad to keep in mind that Wuhan's regional leaders and the central committee are from two different power structures in the Chinese state. And by the way, what's your comment about the Chinese fatalities? Wuhan is a 19-million metropolis alone.

The masks argument is simply ridiculous and that would apply to every country in the world. Nobody has banned the wearing of masks, nobody has dragged people out of their homes when they tried to self-isolate, nobody has pushed them into the infected crowds. Information was available, Internet is accessible from every PCs, phones, tablets, news have been full with "what happens in Italy", so everybody could do all of these things if he/she wanted to. You claim that they didn't because master Trump did not encourage them to do so, which I suppose assumes you take them for a brainless mass which is waiting for the glorious leader to instruct them to go take a pee. See, if your argument was that Trump (or anyone in his shoes) didn't do anything to equip the hospitals or made the work of the medical workers harder with bureaucratic obstacles and such, it would have been a point worth considering. Right now you're whining why big daddy hasn't told his kids it's not good for them to stay around sick people. And if you remember, even WHO - the main promoter of the "pandemic" - could not provide a clear statement if the mass usage of masks helps mitigate anything for quite some time.

Something about the lockdowns - as per the reports, 40 to 70% of the fatalities (depending on the region) in the Western countries are from nursing homes. The people in the nursing homes are in a de facto lockdown all the time, epidemic or no epidemic, yet they die the most. How does that fit with the "lockdowns helped" explanation, i.e. how locking down the general population which is already isolated from the group which is the most vulnerable makes things better?

Quote:
Zeno, c'mon man, this is just terrible. You don't need to be a medical doctor to have a rudimentary idea of how a virus spreads.

Places with a large initial surges of cases are going to explode quickly. Italy had a large number of cases (and superspreaders) early on, so that means aggressive action needed very early on or else severe consequences. Italian mayors had to (jokingly) make videos threatening to go after people with flamethrowers.

How many flights go from China to Belarus? How many tourists and travelers go in and out of Belarus? How much travel is there WITHIN Belarus compared to other places? How developed is the health system? How thorough is the testing? How transparent and fast are the results? There are so many variables, but the virus spreads the same way everywhere via the same opportunities, especially closed indoor spaces with lots of talking and/or eating.

You are being lazy and I already know you know this stuff or at least I get the impression you would because you've been knowledgeable in other posts.
Cool, man, so you assume the virus comes from China because of what? And it came from China when? I don't want to link again widely available articles which confirm that it's been available in France, Spain and Italy in December last year. That's two months before any sort of counter-measures have been introduced anywhere outside of China. There was even a study published this June that a virus RNA has been found in Catalonia's wastewater dating from March 2019 (don't be lazy, even New York Post wrote about it). Do you know when it was first in the US? Would be curious to read if this has already been investigated.

But let's assume the comfortable official version that the virus comes from China and arrive at the different countries exactly when they started checking the population, no matter that the latter is a virtually fantastic scenario. Once it already was in a given country, it spread through the people there - unless you can prove the virus is a racist which explicitly requires Chinese for carriers. As per the official information there are 120 000 Bulgarians living temporarily or permanently in Italy (I have a relative there), there are probably more. When the panic started, many of them flew back home. In fact, our government claims that 200 000 people have returned from infected countries, mostly from Italy - that's a lot for a backwater country with constantly dwindling around 7 millions of people living on its territory. Quite a few of them have been tested positive initially or later on and because of the cool organization, many of them were not even quarantined for some time. Now go back and look at the numbers, bearing in mind that according to the testing, the number of infections has surged dramatically lately. The mortality rate has been constant since February, it was actually higher in January as it usually is at that time due to the flu and it's actually slightly lower than in 2019. To answer your next question - A LOT of people in the Balkans and Eastern Europe in general flew from and to infected Western countries at that time - both tourism and work travels. There are some winter resorts around here visited by foreigners quite a lot too. I guess the scientific conclusion is that we have some commie luck around these parts of the world.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted July 31, 2020 05:25 PM

Zenofex said:

Yeah, flu has a "season" and what do you know, part of that excess mortality in Europe is during that season. Yet it's attributed exclusively to the novel virus which has 75 to 100% identical symptoms depending on the case and cannot be distinguished when examining a corpse.
If you'd checked the links *I* gave, you'd have seen, that the curves also show the average flu excess mortality (and some even show the excess mortality of the 17/18 flu). What we talk about here, is a massively increased excess mortality within give or take ONE MONTH, and that month is outside of the flu season.
I guess you read too many conspiracy nonsense.

Quote:
China's lockdowns aren't that easy to investigate as the information coming from there isn't reliable enough, however the party leaders did make use of the situation. Whether they enforced the lockdowns and manipulated the number of the fatalities so they can easily dispose of local leaders which were not in line with current central doctrine - obviously I don't know. Neither do you.
I don't think the Chinese leaders need to enforce lockdowns thereby hurting their economy and alienating large parts of the population, in order to purge local figures they don't like. They also locked down and quarantined masses of people EACH TIME there was some outbreak.

Quote:
It's not that bad to keep in mind that Wuhan's regional leaders and the central committee are from two different power structures in the Chinese state. And by the way, what's your comment about the Chinese fatalities? Wuhan is a 19-million metropolis alone.
They locked things down rigorously and quarantined everyone. Considering the number of infected, their death rate was quite high.

Quote:
The masks argument is simply ridiculous and that would apply to every country in the world. Nobody has banned the wearing of masks, nobody has dragged people out of their homes when they tried to self-isolate, nobody has pushed them into the infected crowds. Information was available, Internet is accessible from every PCs, phones, tablets, news have been full with "what happens in Italy", so everybody could do all of these things if he/she wanted to. You claim that they didn't because master Trump did not encourage them to do so, which I suppose assumes you take them for a brainless mass which is waiting for the glorious leader to instruct them to go take a pee.
You just demonstrate that you have no idea how things work in the States. Yes, they need to be told. See the for our standards ridiculous warnings on each and every article, see blizz's new thread about how Arabic numbers" should be banned, see the guy who died drinking desinfectant because the president suggested it, see anything you want. NOWHERE in the world, except in parts of Asia people have EVER worn maks in public, and you expect them to ALLL start voluntarily (because it doesn't help a lot when it's only a part)? Are you kidding me? Not even in Europe, not even in GERMANY people were doing it voluntarily except for a few, and even when it was mandatory, even in Germany there are still enough who simply don't.
Are you really so naive?
Quote:
, if your argument was that Trump (or anyone in his shoes) didn't do anything to equip the hospitals or made the work of the medical workers harder with bureaucratic obstacles and such, it would have been a point worth considering.
I made that point a loooong time ago - I said that he didn't use the federal resources to help in hotspots where help was needed.
Quote:
Right now you're whining why big daddy hasn't told his kids it's not good for them to stay around sick people. And if you remember, even WHO - the main promoter of the "pandemic" - could not provide a clear statement if the mass usage of masks helps mitigate anything for quite some time.
I'm not whining. And it has a reason I said TWO months ago, not 3 or more.

Quote:
Something about the lockdowns - as per the reports, 40 to 70% of the fatalities (depending on the region) in the Western countries are from nursing homes. The people in the nursing homes are in a de facto lockdown all the time, epidemic or no epidemic, yet they die the most. How does that fit with the "lockdowns helped" explanation, i.e. how locking down the general population which is already isolated from the group which is the most vulnerable makes things better?
I have no idea how high the percentage of fatalities from nursing homes is. A quick search brought up nothing factual, so I take this as an assumption. However - I had guessed months ago (when it was clear that having diseases will increase the chance to die) that nursing homes would be hard hit. Why? Because nursing homes CANNOT be locked down. They need carers, cooks, cleaning staff, people who serve them and so on. If there are infected among those, well.
Keep also in mind that the virus is alredy contagious when tests are still showing negative. Also, lockdowns were different depending on countries. They were quite heavy in France, Italy and Spain, less so in others.

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Blizzardboy
Blizzardboy


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posted July 31, 2020 05:48 PM

@Zeno

I'm too bored to continue with this discussion. You win.
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Galaad
Galaad

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Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted July 31, 2020 06:40 PM

Zenofex said:
Switzerland is also interesting, as it border Italy's most infected regions but never introduced even half as restrictive measures.


Switzerland actually took about half of restrictive measures. All jobs that were possible to be done from home are still being done from home even now. There is nothing excessive one risks if you don't follow government recommendations but it's also much easier to contain citizens as it's a very small country. As for mortality rates... I think we will know in about 4 weeks.

There is also this weird thing with children who had that disease resembling kawasaki's, the link here is it's exclusively children who got covid that also got that one.

I don't know, no one really knows what's going on. I do think every one should be cautious about it though.
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fred79
fred79


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My BS sensor is tingling again
posted July 31, 2020 07:44 PM

I'm more cautious about the remaining and exploitable after-effects, than any illness.

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Minion
Minion


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posted July 31, 2020 08:54 PM
Edited by Minion at 20:58, 31 Jul 2020.

Same here. Trump has suggested that the election would be "postponed", so he could remain as president. This is sickening and dangerous. Luckily EVERYONE has condemned it, including pretty much all Republicans. Trump is all alone. He is done

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fred79
fred79


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My BS sensor is tingling again
posted July 31, 2020 09:00 PM

We'll see, won't we?

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted July 31, 2020 11:54 PM

My honest opinion is, if the Reps would somehow manage to ban Trump from their party and bring in a halfway serious candidate  they'd win the elections in a landslide victory.
Understandably so.

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fred79
fred79


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My BS sensor is tingling again
posted August 01, 2020 12:20 AM

The only way Trump doesn't win this election is if the leftist virus spreads to the right. Which the left's really, really trying to convince everyone of. They're pulling another "our candidate's gonna win!" move, and it'll backfire the same as last time. They're so deranged, they think the U.S. will let a readily-identified child molestor who's clearly past his prime mentally, and is as corrupt as hillary to boot, to be president of the free world.

It's laughable.

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted August 01, 2020 12:06 PM

fred79 said:
to be president of the free world.
So, globalism is bad and you're not an American exceptionalist...

fred79 said:
It's laughable.

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The only reason i argue with you people is because i don't want the bullsnow you all spout to be so easily spread to the impressionable without another sane voice challenging you.  -  Fred79

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Zenofex
Zenofex


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Kreegan-atheist
posted August 01, 2020 02:20 PM

Quote:
If you'd checked the links *I* gave, you'd have seen, that the curves also show the average flu excess mortality (and some even show the excess mortality of the 17/18 flu). What we talk about here, is a massively increased excess mortality within give or take ONE MONTH, and that month is outside of the flu season.
I guess you read too many conspiracy nonsense.

The link for the UK stats does not open properly for me. The Euromomo one opens fine and shows that in 2017 you had slightly lower excess mortality with no corona-virus. It also measures the last 5 years only while I'm talking about 20-years period. The UK's biggest flu epidemic of late is considered to be the one from 1999-2000 and that's the comparison I linked you. If official statistics is conspiracy nonsense, then that's what you're reading too. By the way, you're still to give me something which decouples the excess mortality from the virus from the collateral damage from the lockdowns.

Quote:
I don't think the Chinese leaders need to enforce lockdowns thereby hurting their economy and alienating large parts of the population, in order to purge local figures they don't like. They also locked down and quarantined masses of people EACH TIME there was some outbreak.

The Chinese economy is the least damaged one from all big economies at the moment because it came out of the lockdowns first and never stopped functioning to the same degree as some Western economies. Only Hubei was heavily locked, that's around 15% of the population, other regions had lighter or no restrictions. In fact, since the lift of the restrictions, the Chinese are at the position to swallow many competitors worldwide, which, in case you do not remember, made the governments start subsidizing local companies one way or another just so they don't get eaten. This month Huawei became the largest smartphone seller in the world, surpassing Samsung. So much about how hurt the Chines economy is by the virus and the lockdowns. As for if they were used as an excuse for planned purges - you can't say conclusively if that has or hasn't been the case, the information is not reliable. But it happened, so here's a possibility.

Quote:
They locked things down rigorously and quarantined everyone. Considering the number of infected, their death rate was quite high.

You don't know the number of infected, as you don't know it in any other country. You have the number of true positives from conducted tests, period. How reliable are the tests is still debatable.

Quote:
You just demonstrate that you have no idea how things work in the States. Yes, they need to be told. See the for our standards ridiculous warnings on each and every article, see blizz's new thread about how Arabic numbers" should be banned, see the guy who died drinking desinfectant because the president suggested it, see anything you want. NOWHERE in the world, except in parts of Asia people have EVER worn maks in public, and you expect them to ALLL start voluntarily (because it doesn't help a lot when it's only a part)? Are you kidding me? Not even in Europe, not even in GERMANY people were doing it voluntarily except for a few, and even when it was mandatory, even in Germany there are still enough who simply don't.
Are you really so naive?

Not sure if you're suggesting that the president of a country or any politician in general is responsible for every act of stupidity conducted on the territory of that country but your claim is that Trump alone is responsible for not enforcing a restriction which everyone could enforce upon himself voluntarily without meeting any obstacles from the state. That's in the context of a country where pretty much everyone takes his civil liberties very seriously, big part of the population still thinks that gun ownership right is a mean to guarantee that the state won't oppress you and also in the context of constant attacks from the media and the opposition (which are actually the same thing in many cases) for working against this and that pillar of democracy, plus a very real threat that by doing so you'll destroy the economic growth achievements from the previous years which are a major point in your favour for the next elections. Add the fact that restrictions of this kind and in such scale have never been introduced anywhere in modern history since the much, MUCH more dangerous Spanish flu. Yeah, it was certainly a simple decision which has only one right answer for anyone who isn't a complete idiot.

Quote:
I made that point a loooong time ago - I said that he didn't use the federal resources to help in hotspots where help was needed.

That's something he and his administration should be held responsible for, if true - not for refusing to take the role of someone's missing brain.

Quote:
I have no idea how high the percentage of fatalities from nursing homes is. A quick search brought up nothing factual, so I take this as an assumption. However - I had guessed months ago (when it was clear that having diseases will increase the chance to die) that nursing homes would be hard hit. Why? Because nursing homes CANNOT be locked down. They need carers, cooks, cleaning staff, people who serve them and so on. If there are infected among those, well.
Keep also in mind that the virus is alredy contagious when tests are still showing negative. Also, lockdowns were different depending on countries. They were quite heavy in France, Italy and Spain, less so in others.

Here you are, you also have links to the relevant researches. Other such exist per country, you can look them up if you want to.
The nursing home residents are among the most isolated members of the society except maybe the prisoners, i.e. you can't isolate them more than that unless you put them in an air-tight bunker. They are under a permanent lockdown in that regard, yet the virus finds a way in - through the staff or in another way - and they have a large number of fatalities associated with it. At the same time, the seniors there are by default vulnerable to multiple diseases, this one including, so they are a perfect study sample. So how does locking down the rest of the population in a similar manner is considered a successfully working tactic when it apparently fails terribly at places where it's constantly in effect?

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted August 01, 2020 04:38 PM
Edited by JollyJoker at 17:39, 01 Aug 2020.

Before I read your post in detail, here is a link that lets you check excess mortality for 15 Euopean countries, UK among them. Belgium is an example, that shows excess mortalities for flu waves and covid, though, with lockdown, flu without.
I would also like to have an explanation what is supposed to be collateral damage from the lockdown? People killing themselves being overly depressed by it?
I could just as well ask - how many collateral lives have been saved via lockdown? Everyone who'd have gotten the flu otherwise. Reduced traffic means reduced accidents and massively reduced flight traffic. Crimes have dropped significantly in lockdown time ...

Edit 1: I read the China part, and China has been investing heavily anyway these last years - while the West has heavily invested into China. Last year the BBC asked how much of Europe was owned by China.. And here is a chart of foreign direct investment into China. Yes, China has plans. China also has a population of 1.4 billion people and is producing a lot of stuff for the rest of the world.China produces HALF the steel of the world and basically everyone imports steel from China, including the USA. China's state capitalism works well - but that wasn't even on question.
The point was that China locked down fast and hard, with all the power of their state. As you hopefully remember, it was WUHAN that was under lockdown, and it didn't produce for weeks - hitting the rest of the world quite hard because lots of stuff are imported from there (antibiotics, for example). Here are the Chinese economy figures.
So I fail to see your point here.

EDIT 2:
Quote:
Not sure if you're suggesting that the president of a country or any politician in general is responsible for every act of stupidity conducted on the territory of that country but your claim is that Trump alone is responsible for not enforcing a restriction which everyone could enforce upon himself voluntarily without meeting any obstacles from the state. That's in the context of a country where pretty much everyone takes his civil liberties very seriously, big part of the population still thinks that gun ownership right is a mean to guarantee that the state won't oppress you and also in the context of constant attacks from the media and the opposition (which are actually the same thing in many cases) for working against this and that pillar of democracy, plus a very real threat that by doing so you'll destroy the economic growth achievements from the previous years which are a major point in your favour for the next elections. Add the fact that restrictions of this kind and in such scale have never been introduced anywhere in modern history since the much, MUCH more dangerous Spanish flu. Yeah, it was certainly a simple decision which has only one right answer for anyone who isn't a complete idiot
.
I think, you are just writing stuff for the sake of writing stuff here. The president is responsible for any act of stupidity that is a direct consequence of what he publicly says and does. There can be no debate about that.
If scientists suggest people should keep distance and wear masks, and the president (and OF COURSE members of the government, be it federal or state) don't follow that advice and even make fun about it, yes, THEY are responsible. When the mayor of Atlanta makes masks mandatory and her governor sues her for that - what is the population supposed to think about that. The president now wears a mask - he made fun of it for months prior to that. Is that supposed to be leadership?
There are many measures you can take, both federal and union - and with a view on what happened in New York (if not in Europe which might be considered far away or whatever), there was no reason whatsoever to underestimate the dangers of what could happen. NONE.
And now people are dying fast again.

In other words - there was a lot of time to think about how to avoid let's say the worst while at the same time keeping the economy as solid as possible. Although - keeping the economy going unimpressed is wishful thinking anyway in a global economy when there is a recession elsewhere.

EDIT 3:

Nursing homes. No, the rest of the world is NOT locked down like nursing homes. Nursing homes are no hospitals. They are homes of old people, many of them suffering from all kinds of sicknesses.
MANY people are caring them. Initially in lockdown, contact was reduced to ONE OTHER PERSON. PLUS a minimum distance. IN PUBLIC. At home (closed room), for 2 months people stayed within the people living together.
See the difference? A nusing home works like a very, very big home with lots of people, SOME of those having a SECOND home. Also, there are visitors who deliver stuff. Food, materials, drugs, laundry ...
That's the problem with "homes".

I don't understand why I have to explain this difference to you. It should be obvious.

Also - we aren't in lockdown anymore and for quite some time. It's just that people have less fun, subjectively, with the current rules and regulations enacted.

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fred79
fred79


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My BS sensor is tingling again
posted August 01, 2020 05:45 PM

bloodsucker said:
fred79 said:
to be president of the free world.
So, globalism is bad and you're not an American exceptionalist...


Because i used a popular phrase? Could you try ANY harder?

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Blizzardboy
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posted August 01, 2020 05:46 PM

Nursing homes are basically prisons anyway even before the pandemic lol
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted August 01, 2020 05:49 PM

That is of course nonsense.

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Blizzardboy
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posted August 01, 2020 06:20 PM

I don't remember the percentage of people who didn't really want to be in them but it was significant.
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Blizzardboy
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posted August 01, 2020 06:45 PM

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/08/trump-federal-agents-stay-portland-police-clean-200801081623824.html

Federal agents are sticking around it seems.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted August 01, 2020 07:24 PM

Blizzardboy said:
I don't remember the percentage of people who didn't really want to be in them but it was significant.
No person can be forced into a nursing home, except when someone - relatives, usually - request them to be declared "nonage" (mentally unfit), and they need to be declared so by doctors and a judge complying. If that happens, they can decide for them. Otherwise - nah.

What's more - they can "leave" (as in take a walk, call a cab, drive somewhere with a relative) anytime they want.
They have also company (which is of course depending - you may not have the company you'd want to)

It's just that some just have no other option. Say, people with Alzheimers.

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Zenofex
Zenofex


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posted August 03, 2020 09:52 AM
Edited by Zenofex at 09:53, 03 Aug 2020.

JollyJoker said:
Before I read your post in detail, here is a link that lets you check excess mortality for 15 Euopean countries, UK among them. Belgium is an example, that shows excess mortalities for flu waves and covid, though, with lockdown, flu without.
I would also like to have an explanation what is supposed to be collateral damage from the lockdown? People killing themselves being overly depressed by it?
I could just as well ask - how many collateral lives have been saved via lockdown? Everyone who'd have gotten the flu otherwise. Reduced traffic means reduced accidents and massively reduced flight traffic. Crimes have dropped significantly in lockdown time.

Collateral damage is everything which the lockdown causes as a side effect to its intended effect in terms of victims - increased suicide rate, harder access to hospitals for regular healthcare, including emergency in many cases due to poor organization, harder access to medical examinations, postponed surgeries or other interventions leading to the deterioration of someone's health,  etc. Not taking into account the economic collateral damage which is obvious and which will kill much more people in the future which will never enter the statistics because such a thing is nigh unmeasurable.
The stats you're posting are over 5-year period while some countries have excessive mortality rate for earlier years (for example, France has comparable excess mortality to this year's but from 2003, caused by heatwaves though). And it's not the same in every country - in Germany you have higher excess mortality in previous years, especially on 2016, compared to this year. In some countries there's no excess mortality at all. But all this is pointless until that excess mortality can be translated into something more than a number - which is the whole point.
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The point was that China locked down fast and hard, with all the power of their state. As you hopefully remember, it was WUHAN that was under lockdown, and it didn't produce for weeks - hitting the rest of the world quite hard because lots of stuff are imported from there (antibiotics, for example). Here are the Chinese economy figures.
So I fail to see your point here.

The point is that China was not hit nearly as hard as the rest of the world and in perspective is in much better position because it resumed activity first and used/uses the crisis in the Western countries to expand even more. I.e. while the US are nearly at the brink of civil war and the EU countries are bickering about who should take more aids from whom and the union is at a real danger of collapse in the following years, China is solid enough - unless it gets destabilized by the events in Hong Kong, Taiwan and throughout the north-western regions - to overpower all other major powers in the following years. In some sense the virus actually helped China speed up these processes.
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I think, you are just writing stuff for the sake of writing stuff here. The president is responsible for any act of stupidity that is a direct consequence of what he publicly says and does. There can be no debate about that.
If scientists suggest people should keep distance and wear masks, and the president (and OF COURSE members of the government, be it federal or state) don't follow that advice and even make fun about it, yes, THEY are responsible. When the mayor of Atlanta makes masks mandatory and her governor sues her for that - what is the population supposed to think about that. The president now wears a mask - he made fun of it for months prior to that. Is that supposed to be leadership?
There are many measures you can take, both federal and union - and with a view on what happened in New York (if not in Europe which might be considered far away or whatever), there was no reason whatsoever to underestimate the dangers of what could happen. NONE.
And now people are dying fast again.

The masks topic discussion is not closed for the scientists as there is virtually no research on the matter if wearing masks has helped in this epidemic as mask usage at such a scale has never been seen before. All studies are based on previous infectious diseases AND in controlled environments, to study things properly on the scale we have at the moment you need to take account tons of other variables like mask types, masks availability, if people are wearing them or taking them on/off properly and whatnot. Just because something is considered useful in a specific scenario does not mean that it's useful in all scenarios. Whether it is useful in the COVID scenario is not clear because this not been researched enough, however making claims as they are a 100% verified truth is another example of manipulation.
You also seem to vastly underestimate the position Trump is in just because you don't like him, to put it mildly. Literally everything he does is susceptible to getting attacked from the opponents' media, it doesn't matter if it's right or wrong in short-, mid- or long-term. The fact that he does tons of stupid things isn't helping his case but he doesn't even have to, he's guilty by default. If he has enforced masks, forced people into their homes and stuff, on the very same day there would have been articles titled "Trump uses the virus to impose dictatorship" or something similar, just like there are now that he sends the feds to certain states to deal with mass shootings, riots, etc. He has no winning move against such a propaganda.
As for how cautios should one be - yes, sure, it's a disease, caution is advised and everybody agrees with that. The disagreement part comes when you turn that caution into something more harmful than the issue you're trying to mitigate.
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Nursing homes. No, the rest of the world is NOT locked down like nursing homes. Nursing homes are no hospitals. They are homes of old people, many of them suffering from all kinds of sicknesses.
MANY people are caring them. Initially in lockdown, contact was reduced to ONE OTHER PERSON. PLUS a minimum distance. IN PUBLIC. At home (closed room), for 2 months people stayed within the people living together.
See the difference? A nusing home works like a very, very big home with lots of people, SOME of those having a SECOND home. Also, there are visitors who deliver stuff. Food, materials, drugs, laundry ...
That's the problem with "homes".

The nursing homes are full of people who are pretty much trapped where they are, i.e. they are de facto quarantined all the time. They don't go to public events, they don't go to pubs, they don't shop, often they don't even move outside of their rooms. Their sole interaction with the outside world often is through the personnel of the nursing home. In other words, you have the highest number of fatalities among people who are under permanent lockdown to an extent which could even be very difficult to achieve for the rest of the population. So, assuming the only way for the virus to get in is through the personnel, what's the difference between infecting someone at the nursing home and infecting someone at home? One of the most astonishingly stupid things which were enforced in Bulgaria, as well as in other countries, was closing people in their homes and promoting the "go out only for drugs and supplies" bull**** - i.e. stay in a confined space, don't go for fresh air under the sun, f*** up your immune system by immobilizing yourself and putting up X extra kilos and other such totally anti-medical "recommendations" which were passed for advices in favour of your health.
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Also - we aren't in lockdown anymore and for quite some time. It's just that people have less fun, subjectively, with the current rules and regulations enacted.

We aren't now. Wait for autumn to come and the good old flu strains to arrive.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 03, 2020 01:51 PM

Okay, you quote something from me five times and give five answers. Sincethis is mostly a covid and not a US politics issue, I won't go in detail with my answer - I also feel you are just repeating the same  probably cnspiracy-theory-driven crap.

1) This collateral damage nonsense: I repeat - what about collateral BENEFITS (I mentioned some of them, that you chose to ignore)? And, no, OF COURSE not everyone has the same excess mortality, because some countries have more cases than others; Germany has, thankfully less than 10.000 at this point (with an 80 million population), while the UK has a ton.
And you constantly ignore that the excess mortality is everywhere mirroring events - a massive increase of infected, then the lockdown and the counter measures and then the normalizing of the excess mortality curve. The flu-based curves are all WITHOUT any measures.

2) China. As I said, China reacted RIGOROUSLY and shut down Wuhan completely and immediately (hurting their exports and EU's and US' imports in some regards). They got it under wraps, because they are locked things down completely (no matter what the people might say), which can't be done the same way in Europe and the US.
However - you should consider that Covid is RELATIVELY "friendly". Our global society has to deal with viral threats and has to develop protocols and procedures. Covid19 is forcing the world to rethink a lot of things in this regard.
And what is this actually supposed to mean, anyway? It seems to imply another conspiracy theory.

3) What you say about masks is totally wrong, and there ARE current studies. Studies I may add, that are actually supported by the development and by what is actually happening. Masks help keeping infections down - ALL kinds of masks, mind you.
And again, you just warp the facts, overstate what one - or I - would expect. You do not actually counter what *I* say, you counter points that you invent and rewrite. That's not honest discussing.

4) I'd call this kind of rambling with an agenda. What is a nursing home? A nursing home is something of a hotel with a number of guests and a number of personnell. The number of people WORKING there (and having contact with some of the workers) is quite high. IN ADDITION all those people have contact with the people in their own homes plus the people they are allowed to have contact with.
You may remember that hotels were CLOSED. Nursing homes COULDN'T be closed, though, because it would have left the inhabitants to die.
This isn't rocket science and for some reason you have been convinced that covid and all the measures against it are nonsense and oppressing and whatnot, so you deliberately close your eyes against everything else.

5)If the distance and mask rules are still valid - which they will be (at least in some countries), there will be surprisingly few cases of flu.

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