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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted July 29, 2020 10:03 PM |
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Blizzardboy said:
Universal healthcare
This one is something you already know you wont get, you Biden/Pelosi bro.
Blizzardboy said:
Even if half of them don't happen because of various obstacles
Obstacles like Biden, Pelosi, Buttigieg...
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 29, 2020 10:20 PM |
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I'd like to add something here. The problem is twofold (in Zeno's sense it's threefold, but systemic problems can't be solved with a click or vote). The first one is Trump as a president, because he's everything but.
The second is the fact that the American public actually voted him because I still maintain that it was OBVIOUS that it would amount to this, AND that he actually made it to Republican candidate (and it's not clear, what is actually more disturbing).
However, there is another thing to consider; imagine Trump is re-elected, when he's basically the most despised politician ever. What would that say about the Americans? What would that mean for the next four years? I mean, Trump would be CONFIRMED in everything he did, and he's be even more trumpish than he is now. WAY more.
I don't actually want to imagine what that might mean.
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Zenofex
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Kreegan-atheist
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posted July 30, 2020 08:02 AM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 08:23, 30 Jul 2020.
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Quote:
Not giving false medical information
Not regularly making attacks on Twitter against the press or individuals. Behaving more like a president
Universal healthcare
Not vetoing gun control legislation
Paris Accord.
Iran deal
Military reduction
Erasing Trump-era tax breaks for elites.
In the corona-virus context, everybody is giving false medical information, and I mean EVERYBODY. The mass-media - most of all. But that's fairly irrelevant as Trump is not a physician so whoever decided to consider him as such and do as he says or has allegedly said has his own stupidity to blame (I know, that's pretty hard). You believe people will suddenly become wiser of more critical if Trump stops talking bull**** on the TV and Internet?
Not defending Trump's tweets or anything but "the media", which in your case is mostly belonging to the Democrats, is attacking him on each and every occasion, with and without a context. He's actually on the defensive here. And again, what would shutting him up achieve for you?
Universal healthcare... whatever. You got it from Obama's two consecutive terms, except you didn't, but I suppose Biden will deliver, eh?
Iran deal - that's unlikely but still more likely than most of the rest. Problem is, whoever takes the seat will have to get Israel's agreement and Netanyahu is quite fine with the situation. The Saudis as well. But let's give that the benefit of doubt.
Paris Accords - I'm tempted to bet money that this won't happen no matter who you choose. The world's economy is bad and will get worse soon, the US one makes no difference, so the climate change topics will get a back seat everywhere. Sure, some documents may be signed but that's about it.
Military reduction... I don't understand that point, really. What is it about, the expenses? A great deal of Trump administration's foreign policy is directed at reducing military expenses. See NATO. I believe you remember Hilary was very aggressive in her campaign about the "foreign threats", I've no idea why do you think Biden will be any different in advancing the agenda of the people he serves.
Erasing Trump-era tax breaks for elites - again, this is not very likely to happen given the economic situation in the world, at least not in the way you hope. It will take a second F. D. Roosevelt to get good results out of this and you currently don't have anything even 1/10 as good in either party.
But most of all - none of these things addresses the problems YOU have as a society and it looks like you, JJ and many other people seem to think that Trump's election was a ridiculous accident. When a good half of the population wants something like him to represent the country, that's a clear sign that your whole system is full of s***. Trump would have been virtually unelectable even as a candidate in every country with a decent social and economic background and since he seems to be genuinely considered an alternative to... anything by a lot of people, this means those who he opposes are at least equally bad. That's systematic problem which you seem to think that can be solved by the instruments provided by the very same system. It should have been obvious in what terrible situation you are when you were given a choice between Trump and Hillary and it's twice more obvious now.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 30, 2020 08:38 AM |
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Zenofex said:
In the corona-virus context, everybody is giving false medical information, and I mean EVERYBODY.
No. Just - no. You can't say something like that without any proof. It sounds like a really silly conspiracy theory.
Or do you mean it in another sense? That everybody gives information, because everyone wants information, but since things are not all clear, there is also false information?
In that case - that is standard. Remember the time when amalgam was really great as tooth filling? Or how it's standard that you take anticoagulants after a coronary, but statistics say that it's not really doing anything positive (but a lot negative)? Or how proton pump inhibitors are (at least in Germany) freely available for everybody and prescribed at every opportunity, but that there is ample proof that people taking them over longer periods are getting more and more allergic?
This is, mind you, in no way different, than finding that lead is a good additive for gasoline and engines, and then much later finding that it's bad for everything else.
Come to think of it - that's obviously the story human existence.
So what do you mean - DELIBERATELY wrong information. Or information that TURNED OUT wrong due to later insights?
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 30, 2020 08:44 AM |
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JollyJoker said:
I did. I repeat - don't you think Trump and his cronies would be all over Biden if they shared your righteous zeal?
No. Because it wouldn't make a difference. The feds are who you would use to investigate something like that, and they colluded with both hillary(with the dnc emails) and obama(with him ordering surveillance on Trump during the campaign). Like i've been saying: Trump is surrounded by the enemy.
JollyJoker said:
The smear campaign worked against Clinton - and now the US pay the price for it. Your current president isn't fit for the job, and has never been. That's the fact, and it's a fact that has seriously hurt your country and thereatens to hurt it even more. There are still nearly 6 months until his term ends, 6 months a lot more damage is a real and ugly possibility.
Smear campaign? Lol. What you call lies, is the truth. Trump became president because people didn't like the usual government corruption; which hillary was the amalgamation of. They snowed their own candidate, bernie, ffs. Nobody but blind-asses missed or forgave that.
Yeah, 6 more months of dems and their terrorist followers flinging poo at the bad orange man. That'll escalate when he wins again in the next election.
JollyJoker said:
Biden and that video is as uninteresting as it gets, because it doesn't change anything about Trump's desolate presidential performance. If Biden really was a child molester - if there was even the slightest chance to smear him with that - enough people would have been on him like fleas over a dod turd, his former Democrat rivals leading the charge months ago. This is all just smoke and mirrors - again - to divert from the facts, not more.
But I guess, you think this is all part of a gigantic conspiracy of the left and of course the media to damage the Holy Trump and to cover up that he's a demon worshipper and eats children after he gropes them.
Sheer bs and cope. Trump's not perfect; i never said he was. He's still leagues better than his, and the U.S.'s opposition, though.
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted July 30, 2020 08:49 AM |
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Edited by blob2 at 08:52, 30 Jul 2020.
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Zenofex said:
Universal healthcare... whatever. You got it from Obama's two consecutive terms, except you didn't, but I suppose Biden will deliver, eh?
My aunt living in USA said healthcare was s*it as long as she remembers. She knows cus she currently works as a medical translator. She for example told this anecdote where a patient needed to choose which of his two arms doctors should save cus his medical plan only covered one arm 
Zenofex said:
Iran deal - that's unlikely but still more likely than most of the rest. Problem is, whoever takes the seat will have to get Israel's agreement and Netanyahu is quite fine with the situation. The Saudis as well. But let's give that the benefit of doubt.
Iran is a thorn in Arabian Penisula's countries side because they have a different faction of islam there, and historically they are Persians not Arabs. My friend who was a few years ago in Iran said it's one of the more friendly and open countries in that region (he also visited Dubai and Kuveit). And because USA is friends-friends with Saudi you know the drill...
Zenofex said:
The world's economy is bad and will get worse soon, the US one makes no difference, so the climate change topics will get a back seat everywhere. Sure, some documents may be signed but that's about it.
Like they pulled out from helping their allies the Kurds. As long as there is no interest in it, USA will bale out from any deal (and I'm talking about cases which they themselves escalated like the creation of ISIS or the liberation of Libya)...
Zenofex said:
Military reduction... I don't understand that point, really. What is it about, the expenses? A great deal of Trump administration's foreign policy is directed at reducing military expenses. See NATO. I believe you remember Hilary was very aggressive in her campaign about the "foreign threats", I've no idea why do you think Biden will be any different in advancing the agenda of the people he serves.
Foreign threats will always be a big topic in USA cus they need an "enemy" to keep things rolling (military deals are a big part of USA income).
Zenofex said:
Erasing Trump-era tax breaks for elites - again, this is not very likely to happen given the economic situation in the world, at least not in the way you hope. It will take a second F. D. Roosevelt to get good results out of this and you currently don't have anything even 1/10 as good in either party.
Rich will be rich, poor will be poor. Like it always was, see 2008s crisis. Or you can always try like this guy here: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/florida-man-arrested-lamborghini-coronavirus-relief-funds/
Zenofex said:
But most of all - none of these things addresses the problems YOU have as a society and it looks like you, JJ and many other people seem to think that Trump's election was a ridiculous accident. When a good half of the population wants something like him to represent the country, that's a clear sign that your whole system is full of s***. Trump would have been virtually unelectable even as a candidate in every country with a decent social and economic background and since he seems to be genuinely considered an alternative to...
This! Or maybe they did "pick him" cus they needed a scape goat.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 30, 2020 09:35 AM |
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Zenofex said:
But most of all - none of these things addresses the problems YOU have as a society and it looks like you, JJ and many other people seem to think that Trump's election was a ridiculous accident. When a good half of the population wants something like him to represent the country, that's a clear sign that your whole system is full of s***. Trump would have been virtually unelectable even as a candidate in every country with a decent social and economic background and since he seems to be genuinely considered an alternative to... anything by a lot of people, this means those who he opposes are at least equally bad. That's systematic problem which you seem to think that can be solved by the instruments provided by the very same system. It should have been obvious in what terrible situation you are when you were given a choice between Trump and Hillary and it's twice more obvious now.
The system, however, is more or less the same in most countries. You can only vote for the people that are on offer, and it's not the people who decide that, but a few selected people only, being it a party or some others. So the differences, if any, are only gradual.
You might just as well conclude, that there were too many AMericans who weren't prepared for a woman as president, whether that's true or not.
Now, if Trump really WAS considered as unelectabla than Clinton (for whatever reason) there would have been other candidates to pick from PLUS the opportunity not to vote at all, and you cannot condemn the system for a failure of the population to make use of all the options they have.
That is a failure of the population to do what they want to, without any tactical considerations (which are bull anyway).
EVERY "democratic" country gets the leader they deserve.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted July 30, 2020 11:38 AM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 11:40, 30 Jul 2020.
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Quote:
No. Just - no. You can't say something like that without any proof. It sounds like a really silly conspiracy theory.
Or do you mean it in another sense? That everybody gives information, because everyone wants information, but since things are not all clear, there is also false information?
Both. On one hand, the virus is not well-studied yet and new "discoveries" keep popping up every other day, yet conclusions about it are reported as well-established facts since the beginning of the crisis. For example, there is no distinction between people who have died from the virus and the people who have died with the virus. A few months back one of the lead pathologists in Bulgaria shared a conclusion from a on-line conference between other European pathologists, including from Italy, Germany and Spain, which state that a patient who has died with the corona-virus is indistinguishable from a patient with a "standard" flu in terms of biological tissue changes. Add on top of that a huge number of the fatalities is from people with loads of other health issues and the picture becomes even more blurry. Given that, the numbers shown in the media have absolutely no solid ground to step on, yet they are considered accurate when reported. From this, political statements are made and actions are taken and everyone uses the situation to his own advantage. The actual healthcare problems are the least discussed topic around the virus, it's 99% politics.
The US citizens have the right to boycott both candidates and in my opinion that's the best thing they can and should do but would mean that enough people have figured out they are served two rotten meals and asked to pick the one which will make them vomit less intensely. This should have been done during the previous elections though - assuming that there was a sufficient critical mass for it - because now both parties are pretty much preparing their electorate for war and the propaganda reflects that. When the primary rhetoric is about who's worse, you can be absolutely sure that whoever comes to power (or retains it) won't fix absolutely anything but will rather marginalize the opposing side even more. If Trump is absolutely right about something, it's that the US' attention badly needs to shift to its own problems instead of policing the world.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 30, 2020 12:12 PM |
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New studies show that covid, if survived, leaves long-term health issues with a sizable part of "healed" patients, many of those concerning the heart. It's not just a question of dying immediately or not. I also balk at reading things like "people dying who would have died anyway" - everyone will die anyway. What is "acceptable" - a week earlier, a month, a year, three years...? Excess mortality is still a good measure, and there is a lot of excessive mortality in Europe now.
And the US didn't "police" the world - they were always "protecting their interests", whatever those interests were.
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted July 30, 2020 12:18 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 12:19, 30 Jul 2020.
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Zenofex said:
When the primary rhetoric is about who's worse, you can be absolutely sure that whoever comes to power (or retains it) won't fix absolutely anything but will rather marginalize the opposing side even more. If Trump is absolutely right about something, it's that the US' attention badly needs to shift to its own problems instead of policing the world.
This is almost exactly what happened in Poland. I assume most people either voted to keep the current president (because he represents "true polish values") or the "opposing" candidate. The guy isn't half-bad as a person, but his main strength was that he isn't the "current president" who is in truth just a figurehead of the government. The idea was to place a "counter", because the current government has the voting majority so everything passes...
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted July 30, 2020 12:31 PM |
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Part of US economy is based on war and stealing resources, it's pretty known and the reason of the hatred from some countries towards them. Issue with Biden is he's part of the Bush/Clinton/Obama circle and also his conflicts of interest in Ukraine. COVID-19 is real and is very bad, some say medias want to spread panic but I think they are minimizing to protect the economy. Doctors don't understand anything for the most part, some cases suffer from absolutely horrific symptoms and the machines can't explain it, doctors can only say it's psychologic, but the amount of cases is way too high for it to be the case. And yes, you can catch it once, have few symptoms, then catch it again months later and that time much more brutally. I fear what is going to happen, and not only in the US; Biden/Trump scenario is awfully similar to the previous Clinton/Trump one and many countries suffer from flawed democracies.
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Zenofex
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Kreegan-atheist
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posted July 30, 2020 12:34 PM |
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Policing the world is a figure of speech, of course they are doing in their interest only... whoever is "they" (they are not the vast majority of US citizens, that's certain).
As for the long-lasting effects from COVID - this applies to any infectious disease which can make you seriously sick. It's just that this fact was revealed to most of the enlightened, informed and educated people of XXI century... this year. "Regular" flu gone bad can affect different parts of your body, including the brain, and deal permanent damage to different organs. A friend of the family died half an year after a tough flu infection a few winters back because his lungs got damaged by the illness, perhaps the heart as well (the latter was not certain). Nothing has changed, except that people have been overwhelmed with what they have been deliberately ignoring until now - except that this is being represented as a shocking new discovery.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 30, 2020 01:21 PM |
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Except that with the flu, there are yearly up to ONE BILLION infections worldwide, with 3-5 MILLION severe cases and one tenth of the severe cases dying - with NO protection like social distancing, mask-wearing and so on. The percentage of severe cases is, in other words, .5%, while the mortality rate is .05%.
Covid compares rather unfavorable here.
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted July 30, 2020 01:32 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 13:34, 30 Jul 2020.
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Zenofex said:
Policing the world is a figure of speech, of course they are doing in their interest only... whoever is "they" (they are not the vast majority of US citizens, that's certain
Well ofc they have interests in this, that's what this is about and it is a no brainer. But what I find disgusting is that they mingle with countries inner workings (they "introduce" democracy), overthrow governments, and in many cases leave a country in a much worst state the it was (usually in a state of civil war): the formation of ISIS was a direct effect of their two wars in Middle East. What did USA do? They left their allies, the Kurds, who were mainly fighting with ISIS and "sold" them to Turkey. The Europe immigration crisis is also of their doing, but they don't give a f*ck because immigrants go to Europe, not USA and it's Europe's problem now. Or Libya which is in a state of permanent uproar after Gaddafi was removed.
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Zenofex
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posted July 30, 2020 01:33 PM |
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Would be true if you could prove that those who allegedly died from COVID according to the statistics really died from it. At the moment, you can't. Which is the whole point - nobody can prove it (what exactly does it mean "we don't know the virus, but we know how many people have died from it, even though it has the same symptoms as other viruses and kills mostly people with serious health issues", try to focus even on that part alone), but everyone draws the conclusions which serve his interest. If the mortality is high - it's the government's fault. If the mortality is low - it's the government's achievement (local, federal, whatever). You can come up with any fairy-tale you want, especially when people don't even ask for solid facts.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 30, 2020 01:41 PM |
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You can prove it wholesale with excess mortality. Also "kills mostly people with serious health issues" is really something that doesn't go down well with me, because it doesn't say anything, actually, and sounds rather, well, fascist (I know you are not) (since it sounds as if their life wasn't worth anything anyway. Most "People with serious health issues" have a seriously long life expectation. Diabetes, for example, is a serious health issue, but no death sentence. People with heart issues can get very old. Kidney failure? People going to dialysis are not expected to die the next day. And so on.
YOU THINK THE WRONG WAY HERE!
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Blizzardboy
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Nerf Herder
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posted July 30, 2020 01:52 PM |
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I don't doubt that some members of the press get epicaricacy from reporting about Trump, but he makes it so easy for them.
And no, he is the one who started the fight. He was involved in the Birther movement before he ever became president, and the ridiculous things that come out of his mouth never stop. Presidents always take a lot of heat and that is part of life, but this time around it is much different.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Zenofex
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posted July 30, 2020 02:10 PM |
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You're thinking the wrong way, because this is about proving how lethal the virus is, not mitigating its impact. The latter is a much complex thing which is related to the healthcare of the given country and THAT is something which is never one government's own achievement or fault. It's not even about the government in cases where the disease isn't very dangerous, i.e. it doesn't kill a lot of people who are otherwise healthy (which this virus certainly doesn't) - it's about tons of factors related to somebody's own lifestyle, habits, environment and so on. If the point is not to overload the hospitals for example, one should ask why a virus would overload the hospitals in the first place. Are there not enough physicians, beds, nurses, are the hospitals too dispersed or too far away from the infection source, could the ambulance arrive in time, etc. Why?* Any of these questions on its own could lead to local problems and combined could expose structural issues which have festered for years but received little to no attention, deliberately or not. And it's no longer that easy to point fingers. However, it's far easier to appoint someone as the champion of guilt and pour everything on his head so that people can feel that justice has been served.
*Here's a side note for illustration. In the years prior to 1989, i.e. the socialist regime, in Bulgaria we had physicians even in the villages, every town had a working hospital, staffed and all. 30 years later the remaining hospitals are only in the bigger cities and experience a shortage of everything - physicians, nurses and supplies, with the exception of several big hospitals primarily in the capital. There are some private clinics as well but most people can't afford the prices there. Those remaining hospitals are overloaded with each and every epidemic, except that nobody cared about that until this year. Who's to blame?
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JollyJoker
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posted July 30, 2020 02:45 PM |
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I'm not sure I understand what your point is, but it's not the actual structures that the current governments all over the world are blamed for, it's their actions or inactions or examples they give. And proving how lethal a virus is, is only possible when you let it roam freely, which is something the UK tried, at least for some time - with bad results, it would seem.
Sweden kept rather calm as well. 80.000 confirmed infections and 5730 deaths right now at a population of 10 million. More importantly, Swedish pop density is 23 per square kilometer - one tenth of that in Germany with some 200.000 confirmed cases and some 9.000 deaths.
Mind you, "doesn't kill a lot of people who are otherwise healthy" doesn't make it any better, when it comes to arguing - it's the same flawed thinking.
Trump gave a very bad example and did nothing to help keeping things under some control, and - as I said a month ago - they are by no means done with covid.
So what is your point?
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Zenofex
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posted July 30, 2020 02:58 PM |
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My point is that the numbers you're using mean nothing from medical perspective because they cannot be proven - you simply lack metrics to do so - yet they are used like they mean something, including by you. That's propaganda, it can be used to sway people but has nothing to do with arguments. I.e. if you want to say "I want Trump out because I don't like him", that's fine, but if it's "I want Trump out because he personally mishandled the COVID crisis in the US" - that's nonsense. Who has handled the crisis "properly" would be estimable after years at the earliest, when the virus and the economic effects (including on the healthcare) from the counter-measures have been properly analyzed, right now it's just good guys vs. bad guys bull**** as usual.
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