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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: ~ Heroes 7 - Discussion thread ~
Thread: ~ Heroes 7 - Discussion thread ~ This MEGA THREAD is 1635 pages long: 1 200 400 600 800 1000 ... 1199 1200 1201 1202 1203 ... 1400 1600 1635 · «PREV / NEXT»
SepSpring
SepSpring


Known Hero
posted October 13, 2015 03:02 PM

Quote:
Yes. The right of free speech gives me this, at least in my country.

Well, if you come from Russia, you should know that such actions are officially forbidden by Federal Law No. 152-FZ.
If you're not from Russia - my apologies for disturbing you.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted October 13, 2015 03:02 PM

farfromrefuge said:
farfromrefuge said:

No. Under no circumstances does the code of conduct allow for personal insults. Nothing wrong with poking a little fun but Erwan's case has been blown out of proportion for too long..


Yes. The right of free speech gives me this, at least in my country.

Like you said, in your country. This forum is another matter entirely.
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TD
TD


Promising
Famous Hero
posted October 13, 2015 03:08 PM
Edited by TD at 15:10, 13 Oct 2015.

gomaki said:
'there is no 'concerted effort' between units, so they may end up blocking their comrads. Not sure if that can be solved in a satifactory level'

That's a quote from the AI man himself so hopefully that answers that. A little more detail on the second point. Essentially all units work out what is best for them as an individual, rather than what would be best for the entire army so this is why you can see a weaker unit blocking a better unit perhaps. It's always being worked on however.


That is rather disappointing to hear as it's basically the biggest problem with the AI. And related to that, how is the hero AI? Will it start using actually useful spells/actions? It often uses completely useless spells and that is partly(I assume) because it can't assess the big picture for other unit-turns.

And should we expect adventure map AI to actually do more than just mindlessly run around?

Edit: Have you fixed the AI target priorities? It seems to absolutely love killing stacks with size of "1" over just damaging "real" stacks.

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kiryu133
kiryu133


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
posted October 13, 2015 03:08 PM

farfromrefuge said:
Yes. The right of free speech gives me this, at least in my country.


That is not what freedom of speech means. freedom of speech laws allows you to say what you want but not where you want. For example, any mod or admin on this forum can stop you from saying things breaking the rules. That does not mean they are stopping your freedom of speech.
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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
posted October 13, 2015 03:13 PM

Elvin said:
Like you said, in your country. This forum is another matter entirely.


it is, but he was not discussing whether or not it is a rule on the forum, he was discussing whether or not it is his human right lol
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gomaki
gomaki

Shaper of Lore
Community Manager, Limbic Ent.
posted October 13, 2015 03:14 PM

TD said:
gomaki said:
'there is no 'concerted effort' between units, so they may end up blocking their comrads. Not sure if that can be solved in a satifactory level'

That's a quote from the AI man himself so hopefully that answers that. A little more detail on the second point. Essentially all units work out what is best for them as an individual, rather than what would be best for the entire army so this is why you can see a weaker unit blocking a better unit perhaps. It's always being worked on however.


That is rather disappointing to hear as it's basically the biggest problem with the AI. And related to that, how is the hero AI? Will it start using actually useful spells/actions? It often uses completely useless spells and that is partly(I assume) because it can't assess the big picture for other unit-turns.

And should we expect adventure map AI to actually do more than just mindlessly run around?

Edit: Have you fixed the AI target priorities? It seems to absolutely love killing stacks with size of "1" over just damaging "real" stacks.


Yes there have been massive AI improvements in our first support patch. Stuff like addressing this AI target priority and not overkilling stacks has been fixed/improved. This goes hand in hand with providing great value on spells/actions as well. So all in all the AI has been massively tightened up.

As for Adventure map AI It really shouldn't be running around mindlessly as it always has a bunch of processes it can do, which it then values to what would be it's most optimal move. I tell you what I can do, I'll ask one of our AI programmers to pop by and see if he can clear some things up in this regard.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted October 13, 2015 03:15 PM

farfromrefuge said:
Yes. The right of free speech gives me this, at least in my country.


The same applies to mine.

However, the right of free speech comes with the responsibility to handle it with care. An insult is not an opinion; although the former is often thought to transfer negative opinions, they really only transfer negative emotions that stem from that negative opinion.

My opinion of Erwan's vision of the game and the concepts he likes to see under the Heroes banner are distant from mine and I've voiced the differences numerous times. Even if I believe he should step down and leave the position to someone more capable, I won't resort to insults on his address.

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farfromrefuge
farfromrefuge


Adventuring Hero
posted October 13, 2015 03:15 PM
Edited by farfromrefuge at 15:21, 13 Oct 2015.

kiryu133 said:
farfromrefuge said:
Yes. The right of free speech gives me this, at least in my country.


That is not what freedom of speech means. freedom of speech laws allows you to say what you want but not where you want. For example, any mod or admin on this forum can stop you from saying things breaking the rules. That does not mean they are stopping your freedom of speech.


Have you seen me saying this on the forum? No? Snow off. On this forum I am merely expressing where I stand and I am not going agaist the rules. You cannot ban me for TALKING ABOUT breaking the rules of this forum on some other website, can you?

Even the things I said on Shadow Council were not that personal. Appreciation Party was not personal. Photoshops were not personal, they were done in a way that reflected his professional and social skills. Sexual question was not asked by me, so I will not answer for this, though it was bloody funny.

I am pretty sure that even in Russia they would let it slide.

Also, are you sure it is 152-FZ? I was not collecting or processing his personal data, I was merely using the public data provided by him.

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Kayna
Kayna


Supreme Hero
posted October 13, 2015 03:16 PM

Erwan may be obsessed with spiders, but they sure are the snowtiest unit in the game.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted October 13, 2015 03:17 PM

IMO the better way to "clear things up" would be to simply make a good AI, like Quantomas's.
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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted October 13, 2015 03:20 PM

gomaki said:
As for Adventure map AI It really shouldn't be running around mindlessly as it always has a bunch of processes it can do, which it then values to what would be it's most optimal move. I tell you what I can do, I'll ask one of our AI programmers to pop by and see if he can clear some things up in this regard.


One of the things I've noticed it doing is that it ignores resources and artifacts on the map. For instance, in the last Haven mission, I've seen the AI kill some guard stacks, collect all the resources guarded by them, but then leave the Artifacts that were among the treasure pile. And not just with the Hero that cleared the guards, but also with other Heroes that run past it.

Also, it sometimes leaves the "free" resources that are strewn across the map untouched. Does it value the 2 movement points it costs more than the effort of picking it up? Keep in mind that even if it doesn't need it (be it now, or in the future), picking it up also denies other players from picking it up.

Would be great to have some more background information on this .

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farfromrefuge
farfromrefuge


Adventuring Hero
posted October 13, 2015 03:25 PM

Maurice said:


One of the things I've noticed it doing is that it ignores resources and artifacts on the map. For instance, in the last Haven mission, I've seen the AI kill some guard stacks, collect all the resources guarded by them, but then leave the Artifacts that were among the treasure pile. And not just with the Hero that cleared the guards, but also with other Heroes that run past it.

Also, it sometimes leaves the "free" resources that are strewn across the map untouched. Does it value the 2 movement points it costs more than the effort of picking it up? Keep in mind that even if it doesn't need it (be it now, or in the future), picking it up also denies other players from picking it up.

Would be great to have some more background information on this .


That's the problem with Quantomas's AI too. At least with the artifacts. Basically, his AI is picking up only the artifacts that are useful for their build or class and leave other things. Might class with no magic schools learned would leave Sar-Issa's staff even after clearing the guards, which they did for the XP. It was stupid back then and there and is stupid here and now.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted October 13, 2015 03:30 PM

Quantomas AI does not behave the same way than in h7 wtf. And btw there is no need to pick up unneeded resources as it eats up movement points. Yeah man, logistics was a VERY good skill in previous iterations.

Anyway, I'm not saying Quantomas AI is perfect, just that it is way better than any other AIs for the game I've seen.
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farfromrefuge
farfromrefuge


Adventuring Hero
posted October 13, 2015 03:32 PM

Galaad said:
Quantomas AI does not behave the same way than in h7 wtf. And btw there is no need to pick up unneeded resources as it eats up movement points. Yeah man, logistics was a VERY good skill in previous iterations.

Anyway, I'm not saying Quantomas AI is perfect, just that it is way better than any other AIs for the game I've seen.


I am not saying it does. I am saying that it has the same problem.

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SepSpring
SepSpring


Known Hero
posted October 13, 2015 03:38 PM
Edited by SepSpring at 15:59, 13 Oct 2015.

Quote:
Also, are you sure it is 152-FZ? I was not collecting or processing his personal data, I was merely using the public data provided by him.

Yep, photos are considered to be personal data since 2013, IIRC.
Moreover, the Civil Code of Russia can also be referred to.

And a proof, of course.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted October 13, 2015 03:40 PM

Galaad said:
And btw there is no need to pick up unneeded resources as it eats up movement points.


Picking up resources doesn't only depend on whether the AI player needs them, but also if its enemies might need them. In a 1-on-1 against the AI, if I don't own any Saw Mills, while roaming through his territory, he would be stupid to leave piles of Wood laying about, even if his own stockpile is in the 1000's. Besides, you could always sell the excess for Gold.

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Oakwarrior
Oakwarrior


Famous Hero
posted October 13, 2015 03:50 PM
Edited by Oakwarrior at 15:54, 13 Oct 2015.

TD said:
gomaki said:
'there is no 'concerted effort' between units, so they may end up blocking their comrads. Not sure if that can be solved in a satifactory level'

That's a quote from the AI man himself so hopefully that answers that. A little more detail on the second point. Essentially all units work out what is best for them as an individual, rather than what would be best for the entire army so this is why you can see a weaker unit blocking a better unit perhaps. It's always being worked on however.


That is rather disappointing to hear as it's basically the biggest problem with the AI. And related to that, how is the hero AI? Will it start using actually useful spells/actions? It often uses completely useless spells and that is partly(I assume) because it can't assess the big picture for other unit-turns.

And should we expect adventure map AI to actually do more than just mindlessly run around?

Edit: Have you fixed the AI target priorities? It seems to absolutely love killing stacks with size of "1" over just damaging "real" stacks.


Hero spellcasting AI is our next hot topic. It improved, but it's not as good as it could be yet. Some decisions seem quite "random" still (it kinda makes sense in the scoring), so we need to go through all spells, case by case and see how to score them so we can have a better evaluation. This might end up with some spells getting scored very very rarely, or with some spells, not at all (especially if the situation is very rare where it's useful to start with and there are "better" options to choose from).

Adventure AI will do more than mindlessly run around, but that has never been the case. If it runs around, it will do something. If it has nothing to do, it will retreat to its main town and simply not move. That's the final fallback. It will become more aggressive in the next patches, though.

Target priorities have been changed now, yes. They try to avoid overkill, but it can still happen. Also, the biggest combat AI changes will not come in the upcoming patch, but the one after that. The upcoming one is more about bugfixing the combat AI (meaning weird pinball mode, defending when it shouldn't (this still happens but rearely), overkilling (yes that was a mistake in the formula, actually).

And while blocking friendlies can happen, the AI will still try to get the biggest use out of positioning taking its own units and the enemy units into account (kill as much as possible while preserving itself as much as possible). Sometimes this ends up in an awkward placement. Maybe we will explore the possibility to "free" blocked units or to change the initial deployment so that it's not necessary at all

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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
posted October 13, 2015 03:55 PM

I shudder to think how much of H7's already constrained time and money resources were wasted developing that terrible AI when the Quantomas adaptive one is right there practically begging to be used lol
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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 13, 2015 03:56 PM

We'll see about it... Personally, I can't wait just to find out what the next screw up is.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler

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Kayna
Kayna


Supreme Hero
posted October 13, 2015 04:04 PM

Well I pick up almost everything. Whatever I pick up is something others cannot pick up.

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