|
|
fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
|
posted March 15, 2016 07:07 PM |
|
|
OmegaDestroyer said:
I'd honestly be happy just going back to Heroes 6's way of making spells like skills. That was just such a great implementation of the magic system. I really got the "& Magic" vibe from it.
In that case going back to the way (or something similar) D&D handled things may be beneficial.
Gaining skills and/or spells only at certain levels. That would mean that while a level 10 warrior gains 9 skills and 1 spells a mage would get 6 skills and 4 spells. Not sure how it would play though.
____________
"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
|
|
Dies_Irae
Supreme Hero
with the perfect plan
|
|
posted March 15, 2016 07:12 PM |
|
|
fuChris said:
OmegaDestroyer said:
I'd honestly be happy just going back to Heroes 6's way of making spells like skills. That was just such a great implementation of the magic system. I really got the "& Magic" vibe from it.
In that case going back to the way (or something similar) D&D handled things may be beneficial.
Gaining skills and/or spells only at certain levels. That would mean that while a level 10 warrior gains 9 skills and 1 spells a mage would get 6 skills and 4 spells. Not sure how it would play though.
Isn't that how H6 works? Basic skills/spells are available from level 1-5. New ones unlock as soon as the hero reaches level 5, and again at level 15. And of course, Magic heroes have full access to spells (save for the 'forbidden' schools) whereas Might heroes have full access to might-abilities/skills.
Or would you propose a system which unlocks things per level? The system in H6 is a bit odd because it stops after 15 even though level cap is set at 30. You'd expect to find more powerful things between 15-30, but all the hero does is boosting his/her stats.
____________
|
|
fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
|
|
posted March 15, 2016 07:19 PM |
|
|
The point is to differentiate between skills and spells. The spells I'm talking about are not racial skill/spells but ones unlocked through spellschools.
____________
"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
|
|
Brukernavn
Hero of Order
|
|
posted March 15, 2016 07:51 PM |
|
|
My impression is that people who play multiplayer generally prefer less randomness, while people playing singleplayer generally enjoy the random elements more. For me the H6 system is not fun at all.
Researching a spell would be OK lategame and at a very high cost. But I would not let you choose more than school and level, so there still is some risk to it.
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted March 15, 2016 07:57 PM |
|
|
Unlocking spells solely through the skill system is lame. First, it goes against replayability and favours cookie cutter builds. Second, it forces you to be extra picky because it will always be more beneficial to pick more passives and a handful of active abilities. You will never have a variety of spells if you want to be efficient. Third, no spell-hunting feel.
I am not against unlocking *some* situational spells through the skill system, that would actually make the random mage guilds more balanced. But all of them, just no. H6 showed very well that there is not much to be gained from this.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
|
|
posted March 15, 2016 08:06 PM |
|
|
That is what I meant. Unlocking spells in addition to ones learned from mage guilds.
The only game to not feature cookie cutter builds was H4. Even H5 had to be played with only a few builds - sometimes even only with very specific heroes - at max difficulty level atleast. You really had to cheese the game to play at that level.
____________
"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
|
|
Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
|
|
posted March 15, 2016 08:15 PM |
|
|
Elvin said:
Unlocking spells solely through the skill system is lame. First, it goes against replayability and favours cookie cutter builds. Second, it forces you to be extra picky because it will always be more beneficial to pick more passives and a handful of active abilities. You will never have a variety of spells if you want to be efficient. Third, no spell-hunting feel.
This would technically only be the case if the skill system was not random. If it was, a spell skill system would behave basically like a self contained mages guild.
____________
"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted March 15, 2016 08:28 PM |
|
|
Actually it's pretty easy (and also something I've been suggesting for years).
Each skill level simply gives you a spell - a TYPICAL spell for that school, that does NOT appear in any mage guild.
So say you pick Novice Light -> gain HEAL; pick Expert Light -> gain Armor of Light (or whatever; Endurance, Righteous Might, whatever); pick Master Light -> gain Resurrection.
This would actually solve a ton of problems (for example ability/spell combos). Mage Guilds giving spells IN ADDITION (and different ones) would just add (and 8 ADITIONAL spells (11 in all per school) would be better as well.
And it makes sense - learning a magic skill without actually learning a spell doesn't make a lot of sense, does it?
Lost cause.
|
|
OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
|
|
posted March 15, 2016 08:42 PM |
|
|
I knew I should have added a  when I posted that comment.
To me, Heroes 6 was complete rubbish. The only thing I actually like about the game is the recycled battle theme from Clash of Heroes. And since so much junk is recycle, this is the theme I am referring to.
That's it. Seriously, screw that game.
____________
The giant has awakened
You drink my blood and drown
Wrath and raving I will not stop
You'll never take me down
|
|
PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
|
|
posted March 15, 2016 08:48 PM |
|
|
Brukernavn said:
My impression is that people who play multiplayer generally prefer less randomness, while people playing singleplayer generally enjoy the random elements more.
I think it goes like that because when you are playing multiplayer you are more likely to have more control over different settings and play styles, going to and fro builds when your enemy can also do the same and will try different strategies, basically to match skills and counter those you seem fit. On singleplayer, you'll have a less chimera-like challenge, and you can afford going random (which I prefer nonetheless) against AI.
____________
"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
|
|
Minastir
Promising
Famous Hero
|
|
posted March 15, 2016 08:48 PM |
|
|
OmegaDestroyer said:
I knew I should have added a when I posted that comment.
To me, Heroes 6 was complete rubbish. The only thing I actually like about the game is the recycled battle theme from Clash of Heroes. And since so much junk is recycle, this is the theme I am referring to.
That's it. Seriously, screw that game.
Omg, thank god 
for me, spells like skills in H6, were one of the worst things in the game
@JollyJoker This is actually great idea, I really like it 
|
|
Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
|
|
posted March 15, 2016 08:48 PM |
|
|
natalka said:
What does a complete overhaul mean in your head?
Everything has been said so many times Nat, for starters there is two major things bugging me: random skills in h7 are totally random which makes it pointless to play with. Prerequisites needs to open or block new paths as in TotE and until then h7 skill system will always be inferior. Would that really be that hard to change? For memo Elvin did imo a nice proposal regarding skill system a few years back.
Governance also is a major issue, it should be entirely rethought. Correct me if I'm wrong but the impression I got was that everything was based into area of control and tied to hero specs, so we get a bunch of heroes with + growth specials, seriously this is freaking boring. There is something also affecting logistics, why does this skill has been reduced so badly, because they don't want no brainers picks? Please, with the fixed system and spells as Tsunami you know how it goes... In games prior to h6 majority of heroes felt somewhat unique, and that is also a problem in h7's game design. Heroes of Might and Magic with bland heroes? Yuck.
Magic system is oversaturated by its amount of magic schools because the lore, and half a year after release the problem is still on the table. Obviously this cannot be changed but something like TDL suggested here last year would be a better option than trying to copy AoW imo. Seriously, of all the qualities AoW has its skill system and spell learning process is probably the weak point and this is what the team is considering to steal from, just lol. This is like the random week events, who on earth will look me in the eyes and tell me he's having fun spending a whole week with shooters incapacitated to shoot? Get real... Now I know you're not too fond of randomness but bear in mind in Heroes the singleplayer experience will always be richer, multiplayer is too limited on too many fronts and its playerbase is rather thin and in the end I don't even think the series were made for online tournaments in the first place. Why were duels introduced to start with? To boost multiplayer activity I can't see any other reason. But h6's direction left many sour and angry. And battles, omfg, can something be done about flanking? And about core units crossing entire batttlefield within two, sometimes only one turn? This is ridiculous! Let units reposition after they move if they don't attack so they don't autoflank themselves, not moving and using defense stance instead of waiting should make unit not flankable for the first strike. Shouldn't this be a minimum?
And really those are just on top of my mind, and last time I played the game was beta 2 but I'm not even sure I'm that out of date.
What I reproach with the way the team is trying to "improve" the game is that it's fundamentally flawed because is always the philosophy of "make the best out of a bad situation". No, scrap it all, get the humility to rework from the core and maybe in two expansions the game can be good, all other half-baked tweaks will only contradict different chains of thought and be doomed to fail as I can't see a coherent, bigger picture in terms of vision and overall gameplay philosophy as of now, and any successful game needs one.
Bear in mind, if the gameplay can end up being good, and by good I mean great -to quote Marzhin from last year who said his goal was to make "a great game"- all the people having problems with lore and aesthetics will mod this aspect and the community's interest will grow again, I have currently no interest in working on townscreens for a game I can't enjoy playing in example, neither do I to mod out Strider and replace it with something I would deem more in a accordance to Dungeon legacy. Yes Erwin, we voted for Dungeon legacy, not freaking dark elves and what goes with it.
____________
|
|
Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
|
|
posted March 15, 2016 09:14 PM |
|
|
OmegaDestroyer said:
The only thing I actually like about the game is the recycled battle theme from Clash of Heroes. And since so much junk is recycle, this is the theme I am referring to.
I liked that one too. Truly one of the high points of H6, which is sad.
____________
"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
|
|
The_green_drag
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted March 15, 2016 09:20 PM |
|
|
I liked it too. But not after hearing it for the third game now...
|
|
Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
|
|
posted March 15, 2016 09:21 PM |
|
Edited by Gryphs at 21:22, 15 Mar 2016.
|
Hey cheer up! In H8 it might be remixed.....slightly.
____________
"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
|
|
frostymuaddib
Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
|
|
posted March 15, 2016 09:39 PM |
|
|
OmegaDestroyer said:
I knew I should have added a when I posted that comment.
To me, Heroes 6 was complete rubbish. The only thing I actually like about the game is the recycled battle theme from Clash of Heroes. And since so much junk is recycle, this is the theme I am referring to.
That's it. Seriously, screw that game.
I was worried for a while 
____________
"Occam's shuriken: when the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas." -- Dr. Gordon Freeman (Freeman's Mind)
"lol" -- VERRIKER VON ERWINSSEN
|
|
Dies_Irae
Supreme Hero
with the perfect plan
|
|
posted March 16, 2016 08:08 AM |
|
|
Gryphs said:
OmegaDestroyer said:
The only thing I actually like about the game is the recycled battle theme from Clash of Heroes. And since so much junk is recycle, this is the theme I am referring to.
I liked that one too. Truly one of the high points of H6, which is sad.
If there is to be one element of consistency throughout the franchise, it is the music. Imo that never fails, not in H3, not in H6, not even in H7 (although there the amount of new tracks is rather limited).
You do make me curious about your other 'high points', since music is 'one of' them .
@OmegaDestroyer: Yea, I wondered if you were extremely sarcastic or totally honest ^^, too bad it was the former.
____________
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted March 16, 2016 08:43 AM |
|
|
Eh, the standards have dropped somewhat after H4. I am aware that the H4 music was not created by Rob and Paul but it was the last heroes with consistently good music. Since H5 there have been a number of hit or misses and one too many remixes.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
|
|
posted March 16, 2016 09:13 AM |
|
|
Dies_Irae said:
You do make me curious about your other 'high points', since music is 'one of' them .
The graphics were nice. The game also felt "fresh" when I first played; became distinctly stale quickly afterward though. Kinda like when you look at a hostess product and then eat a hostess product.
____________
"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
|
|
Avonu
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
|
|
posted March 16, 2016 09:26 AM |
|
Edited by Avonu at 09:45, 16 Mar 2016.
|
Elvin said:
I am aware that the H4 music was not created by Rob and Paul
Eh, what? It was created by them, however IIRC they bought samples of some themes on which H4's music is based.
EDIT:
Paul Romero said:
The chord progressions used in both sets of music [HOMM IV soundtrack and Twelve Kingdoms ] are progressions that date back up to 500 years. Many composers use the same chord progression (only 12 major and 12 minor chords exist in all music) so you will hear these progressions in many many pieces of music over the last 5 centuries. As for the second set of comparisons, I think whoever created the music for twelve kingdoms probably did hear my music from HOMMIV because I've never played a video game or watched anime my entire life! So I know I've never been exposed to any music from twelve kingdoms (actually I've never even heard of it). I only write music for specific areas that game producers ask of me.
I think what all three of us composers have in common is that we probably used an ancient instrument sample (companies sell pre-recorded bits of ancient instruments playing very old melodic fragments which then I can add orchestral accompaniment and vary the speed of the melody to suit the mood. These fragments come in instrumental catalogs and many soundtrack composers will use bits and pieces of melodies to incorporate into their scores. I’m not sure what catalog the little tune came from but I’m sure it’s from the same one that the other composers used as well. I try not to use such pre-recorded fragments due to the fact that lots of other composers will be using the same tool, but when you have deadlines like we have in this industry (i.e., producers needing a 3 minute piece of music within 24 hours, composed, recorded, mixed, mastered, then embedded into the graphics), we use every tool possible in order to have a good-sounding piece of music created in a timely fashion.
____________
"When someone desires information, they come to me."
"Details are everything."
Pipiru piru piru pipiru pi!
|
|
|
|
This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
