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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted August 10, 2016 02:44 AM |
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Momo said:
I appreciate many of your thoughts but I am still displeased that you consider as objective that the gameplay is bad as the art is bad. Art is subjective and I enjoyed the art of HOMM6 quite a lot. In fact I often found the series to be aesthetically pleasing from HOMM3 to today, perhaps HOMM4 was the one I had a weird feeling for. And I also like much that it changes in each installment (which is why I dislike the reuse of models a lot). I don't understand how many can say the art is "objectively" a fault of the series, especially when there are so many, more blatant and undeniable faults. But we had this argument already ^_^
The lore is a more complex matter, I think Ashan's lore is more simplified and less appealing than the original one but I still think you could get good stories out of Ashan. And for the 100th time I also don't think ascetic undeads or mad-sci wizards or rebellious orcs were a bad move. You could DEFINITELY make a good story with those elements, or more. They didn't though, and this too is an argument I already had in the forums these days ^_^
About Erwan being "out of the picture" I don't know what you are talking about -you're probably better informed than me- but in any case I redirect you to the post above yours, which you probably didn't read as we wrote at the same time. I'll be more enthusiast when Ubi is out of the picture, if that ever happens. I'd still be delighted to be proven wrong, though.
I'm not making a statement that those aspects are objectively bad, I'm merely saying if you as a player subjectively found them bad or flawed (which many do), or indeed if you enjoyed them, Erwin is the one to praise or blame (and more indirectly, Yves), because he was their influencer lol
back in the H5 days, Fabrice as the producer often received, and gratefully accepted, the praise and the responsibility for Heroes 5 and all its rough edges lol
to be completely fair to Erwin, he with Fabrice's sidekick Romain deserves the full praise for choosing and leading Caybara on Clash of Heroes, a really great game which deserved its huge praise, even though it was a complete commercial flop IIRC lol
the thing is, I hope you excuse me saying you weren't here for this, but if you were witnessing earlier during Heroes 7 just how deeply and frustratingly obtuse these guys can be sometimes, I think the resentment and annoyance with Team Erwin would make more sense to you,
I mean it's exactly what Vitirr said, "good design doesn't cost more, bad design does", it really can't be denied that their basic priorities have been arseways in an ingrained and fundamental way for a long time now in areas where it could have been avoided, for example especially with the Necropolis units and the skills and spell schools,
a majority was very clear with them that we would rather have a skeletal Lich instead of the Heroes 6 crackhead Lich, or at least a valid reason to use the old one, and they were just so, so baffled by this man, they would do anything to avoid the feedback, they invented outright lies to explain their use of the H6 Lich, they brought up uncited data from old H6 focus tests that the Lich looked good, they completely sincerely and earnestly started talking how Erwin's lore doesn't allow for skeletal Liches in Ashan, like as if it was as if it was literally causing them headaches trying to work around that sacred lore, it was incredible,
all the while, we were just saying, good god just change the Lich ffs, and eventually after months they begrudgingly relented and did, and even further months later they casually admitted what we all guessed in the first place, that it was simply a budget issue, I mean jesus christ why didn't you just say that lol
this lore stuff is all Erwin and Marzhin basically ever talked about when dealing with the community, they barely ever seemed to deal with actual gameplay and design, and whenever they did their ideas were widely considered garbage (fewer resources, the online Conflux, etc) lol
it's the same with these skills, they have seven schools of magic and faction-forbidden schools in MMX Legacy, Heroes 6 and Heroes 7 simply because the lore Ashan retconned and reconceptualized by Erwin before Heroes 6 says so, regardless of game balance,
even when we point out Heroes 5 had four spell schools, even when the developers have to admit there will be some completely useless spells included solely because of those "IP constraints", even when most of the shadow council and fanbase was screaming they have to reconsider their systems, even when the game bombs, they insist and insist we must be consistent with the lore and the commandments, we must remain faithful to the IP constraints, Haven heroes WILL NOT learn Dark,
I've never seen priorities this backwards before from a creative team handling a strategic video game, where the team is so obsessed with the lore, so deluded and unable to comprehend anything that might improve the actual game but bend their lore, and that is the kind of storytelling overload mentality Erwin brought, that consistency with some bullsnow lore weighs much more than sound and enjoyable game design, which really amounts to a form of sabotage of these games lol
he's just not a game designer, and the people in that team are not game designers either, because they don't think twice, lol
they have been spending so much time worrying about the frills and the fluff of their franchise and their brand, without actually establishing the damn brand with quality, playable products, and as a result the whole brand is in tatters basically lol
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted August 10, 2016 08:05 AM |
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Brukernavn said:
You mean this post?
Yeah, that is the one. 
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 10, 2016 09:19 AM |
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Verriker, you know that I'm with you mostly, but not in the point of lore and game design.
Lore doesn't prohibit good game design - it just gives you some constants to work with. The constant there is - there are 7 magic schools. And factions SHOULD be different, so it is completely ok, when you have a STARTING POINT like this.
However, in that case it MUST be a starting point. If number and organisation of magic schools were free, that factor was a variable and could consequently be tackled relatively late, because you could adjust it the way it would be most fitting for the rest of the game.
In this case, though, it was a constant - therefore game design should have BEGUN with this, since you can expect that a vast part of the game mechanics with a view on skills and spells have to be adjusted for the fact that there have to be seven magic schools.
And that simply did not happen. If you look for someone who is at fault directly it should be the guy labeled LEAD DESIGNER (Producer is the guy who should have named someone else), and the game credits name Xavier Penin in that role from Ubisoft's side.
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TD
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted August 10, 2016 10:19 AM |
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Honestly there is absolutely nothing wrong with Ashan as setting for the game. The problem is Ubi/Devs that treat lore as the holy word from heaven and make everything accordingly. Lore should also be adjustable, you can always make this game take place on alternative time-line or parallel universe or something that never got written in history for example to take certain freedoms. Lore has literally infected everything from factions to spell-schools. And honestly is not even just about lore, it's about lazyness from Ubilimbic because they want to re-use just about everything from MMH6. They did that simply to cut corners and there is just no excuse for it.
As for what some said about factions, I think it would have been fine to start the game with 5 or maybe even just 4 factions. Just make the factions feel actually unique. Then we would've had solid foundation from which to start expanding the game with future factions. It would have also enabled much more unique skill-wheel design than even h5 had because there were less factions to balance. Because balancing would have been easier again as result they could've made factions unique with creatures, prices, buildings and so forth. I know having less factions is probably really unpopular idea here, but would you really like to get utterly bland factions like MMH7 had or even more bland factions by getting 9 factions to start with?
The big problem with MMH7 is that it has really poor and shaky foundation to start building from. Just about everything screams bland and boring from the game. If you compare it to previous games it completely lacks depth and replayability. During alpha beta it felt like a chore to do. During the beta Release it still felt like a chore. Even after numerous patches I could still not get any fun or joy from playing the game, I kept trying to find excuses to try to game hoping maybe I missed something but ultimately I just couldn't get anything out of it. It was just extremely bland, generic and boring experience to me. What's even worse is that it didn't feel even like a new experience or that devs put any effort into it. Even the MMH6 I felt intrigue and had fun for while. The game felt new and I could feel devs really tried to make a great game(despite me hating a lot of choices). With MMH7 all I see is bland designs and devs cutting corners. To me it was by far the worst heroes experience and I've played the series since h2. Maybe I'll give the game another try when it is finished and has mods to fix some of the terrible game-design choices, but for now I see very little hope for the game.
And just for the record, I've seen so many much better indie and even mobile games than MMH7. In my eyes UbiLimbic just completely dropped the ball on this game.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 10, 2016 10:44 AM |
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That's more or less exactly my opinion on the game as well. Boring, bland and generic - for example you can see the underlying pattern of, "hey let's make two weak and one strong units per tier and let's give them growth 1, 2, 5, 10 and 20, respectively, with a couple of numerical variations along the line", which means, all factions have the same characteristics, the same organisational structure. Which is true for the plethora of different Heroes as well - who are basically all the same as well, when you leave out the racial skill and the specific rules of magic which have no rhyme or reason (or why is Earth Magic a no-show with Haven heroes?) other than offering offensive, defensive and governmental options in both might and magic.
Then, if you consider how bland creature abilities are and add the astonishing amount of bugs even without the complexities of HoMM VI in that regard, the game STILL, one year after release, looks rough and crude, like an alpha without any polish (besifdes the obviously doubtful design decisions).
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted August 10, 2016 12:31 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Verriker, you know that I'm with you mostly, but not in the point of lore and game design.
Lore doesn't prohibit good game design - it just gives you some constants to work with. The constant there is - there are 7 magic schools. And factions SHOULD be different, so it is completely ok, when you have a STARTING POINT like this.
However, in that case it MUST be a starting point. If number and organisation of magic schools were free, that factor was a variable and could consequently be tackled relatively late, because you could adjust it the way it would be most fitting for the rest of the game.
In this case, though, it was a constant - therefore game design should have BEGUN with this, since you can expect that a vast part of the game mechanics with a view on skills and spells have to be adjusted for the fact that there have to be seven magic schools.
And that simply did not happen. If you look for someone who is at fault directly it should be the guy labeled LEAD DESIGNER (Producer is the guy who should have named someone else), and the game credits name Xavier Penin in that role from Ubisoft's side.
agree with you all along, that there definitely can be valid IP or lore constraints from things that were established, and any number of them (e.g. it's established the Angels are in Haven and it's established Haven is led by the Knights, therefore it's common sense that we can't just put the Angels in the Necropolis at random or we can't just have Haven led by the Druids),
no problem there,
the difficulty is I am basically saying, from a pragmatic and common sense point of view, that this specifically (like chopping and changing the resources) is an example of a flimsy, frivolous, arbitrary and stupid constraint,
neither is there a tradition, precedent nor anything whatsoever established in the legacy of Heroes the franchise itself to dictate that the game needs a certain number of schools of magic or that certain factions can't use certain magic, but nor is there even anything within the Ashan setting itself to dictate that, after already having Heroes 5 with its generally acclaimed four school magic system which worked well lol
as such, pragmatically speaking, it's ****** stupid and irresponsible from a design and even a creative standpoint to suddenly come in and decide to rule out all the previous systems which worked well, and were widely enjoyed by players, and also any other potential systems, in order to insist and insist against all reasonable opposition on enshrining these seven schools of magic out of the blue in all future games, basically with the rationale "I can retcon whatever I like because I'm the boss and I said so" lol
it is not important in any valid, meaningful or basic common sense way to have a strict seven magic schools, it is purely Team Erwin with their internal bible in their ivory tower having a random whim that this must be,
to just accept something so dumb and divorced from practicality as fair enough and marching orders, is to accept that in tomorrow's game we may be ordered to implement exactly no more and no less than 900 secondary skills because the lore says 900 is a sacred number in the world of Ashan the world of Might&Magic, thus all heroes of Might&Magic must have exactly 900 secondary skills to choose from, because reasons, and because Asha spoke to Sar-Elam, and blah blah blah, and no I don't care if that's way too many to think up or code, off you go and do it lol
totally backwards priorities, and Xavier Penin, indeed, is the one directly responsible for such nonsense, but as I mentioned, mainly in apparently not bothering to think twice or trying to question or overrule the IP wishes/instructions imposed by Erwin lol
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 10, 2016 01:00 PM |
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Keep in mind, that having 7 different kind of magics doesn't mean they have to be organized that way in the game (I didn't check it, but the first Axeoth campaign is somewhat showcasing it, or not?).
Even if the lore said there were "900 skills", you could just take 90 and call them perks or talents or abilities or whatever - as you could, for example organize magic into Prime (which is Order and Chaos), Nature, Life and Death. For example.
Keep in mind that the main idea behind the "lore thing" is the consideration that there isn't just Heroes, but (supposedly) a plethora of other Might & Magic games, and the lore has the purpose to make sure that with every game (and developer) the "Might & Magic feeling" is there, that is, that there are no background contradictions and so on.
So the basic idea isn't without merits with a view on the whole brand.
Now, your designers should of course be able to handle that.
If you look at AoW 3, there is a MASS of different classes and schools. The game itself has five different elemental damages (Shock (Air-related), Cold, (Water-related), Spirit, Blight and Fire. There are also Creation spells, Destruction spells, Air, Fire, Earth and Water spells, each Class has its own spells as well ...
For a good designer lore just doesn't matter as a restriction - you either cope or you find some way around.
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AnkVaati
Famous Hero
Nighonese National Front
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posted August 10, 2016 01:24 PM |
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It's interesting how Erwin has talked about HoMM 5 not being entirely in line with his imagination of Ashan. He first made it sound like he was criticising the ridiculous storyline, but it seems he rather was talking abut it not being warcraftized enough.
There's hardly a clicé as hated in fantasy games as "crystals", not to mention "blood crystals" (taken directly from WoW, do a google search to find out). Back a long time ago when I was a bit into the make your own game-stuff, the very mention of "crystals" caused immediate ridicule on game making forums. But Erwin is somehow below even that level. Had he chosen "blood sulfur" or blood mercury" or anything else as the only remaining luxury resource, at least it would have seemed a tiny bit original. But no. It had to be crystals. Why? Because Warcraft, leul.
It's fascinating to what lengths they seem to think that the only future of M&M is to attract young teens who are into Warcraft, Warhammer etc. I started playing HoMM 3 when I was seven years old. Only problem I had was H3 Necropolis being a tad bit scary - maybe Erwin's Green Spider Dragon Goddess Babylonian stuff taken from Warcraft (from the Lich King's undead nerubian - i. e. giant spider - servants, to be exact) could have helped there.
Strategy games aren't about cool battle animations or kinky sexy dark elves. Customers who are out to get that kind of stuff buy RPG games instead. Young people can still enjoy strategy if the game is rewarding and replayable enough. They aren't morons you can fool to buy a bad product because that dwarf something has such a cool 30 seconds long battle animation with his hammer which you can enjoy after the ten minutes wait for the game to load. Please go and work on some RPG if that is the Heroes of your games.
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Ank's Old School (kinda) H8 proposal <- best thing evvah, trust me
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted August 10, 2016 02:20 PM |
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3lion said:
What may you think that Vivendi cares about Might&Magic? Vivendi's actions shows that they doesn't follow any rules of decorum and they care only about money.
There are many ways to handle that. One could be simply ignore the franchise and do not do anything with it.
As for the IP's, there are some good ones, yes. I still think it is a risky move to take over Ubisoft, since some franchises suffer the same fate as Might and Magic. The only one that comes to mind is Assassin's Creed. I wonder how AC movie goes, though.
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted August 10, 2016 02:29 PM |
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Momo said:
The lore is a more complex matter, I think Ashan's lore is more simplified and less appealing than the original one but I still think you could get good stories out of Ashan. And for the 100th time I also don't think ascetic undeads or mad-sci wizards or rebellious orcs were a bad move. You could DEFINITELY make a good story with those elements, or more. They didn't though, and this too is an argument I already had in the forums these days ^_^
It's a possibility, but only if they try to do some unique. After all, for the third time humans are in the center, we have dark elves that do some clan stuff and necromancers are trying to appease the dragon god Asha. The only unique thing I see are the orcs.
And, as some pointed out, why would we have stories that are quite similar to Game of Thrones, or the book Heroes VI's storyline was written about, when there are opportunities lying around. Like that Forgotten East that is just placed on the map, without much reason.
Momo said:
It's not "for some reason", it's because that's how Ubi does things. Ubi doesn't want to create the next HOMM3. It doesn't want to create the solid game that lasts years on the shelves.
And that's the sad part, even. I do recall there was one guy (Was it Quantomas?) that, after Tribes of the East was finished, one of them wanted to make further development to polish the game. But Ubi placed veto on it and did not approve of it, since Heroes VI was in development. Fortunately, the patch, though unofficial, was released and speeds up AI turns and has even improved AI itself. Or so I've been told.
Momo said:
It's not about creating a long-lasting, satisfying product. It's about making a lot of unstatisfying products very quickly and sell them all and leave you hungry for the next one. It's fast food, not a restaurant.
A lot of people lost their appetite after Heroes VI, then.
Momo said:
Ubi has no reason to fire Erwan at all. Erwan is in fact the director they dream of. It creates hype and buzz and sells a product without worrying too much that it is unbalanced, undeveloped, unpolished, unfinished. Which is fine to them. It's even better, to them.
Maybe so. But what I don't understand is why would they start another MM project, when it wouldn't offer any money at all. After all, I do not believe Heroes VII has produced any notable profit. I know Ubi believes that "strategy games are not popular today" (which I disagree with), but it still doesn't make much sense to make another strategy games that they do not even believe it will succeed or bring them money (if any, at all).
What I also find confusing is how Ubi changed after Heroes V. Sure, Heroes V had a buggy release, but in the end, it turned out decent enough. But now, a lot of attempts at something new have met failure.
Momo said:
Do you guys all really think that Erwan is some madman who is ruining a franchise for the pleasure? That no one notices? Or that, if tomorrow Erwan gets killed by a lightning strike (let's hope not) or fired to appease our distaste for him, the series will magically start getting in better shape? Hell no.
You are right, it won't change much. But at least I know that we won't have Erwin and co. telling us how they don't have a vision how Heroes games should look like. It's obvious they lack some common sense.
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Brukernavn
Hero of Order
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posted August 10, 2016 02:39 PM |
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Momo said:
Brukernavn said:
I think the way Ubisoft has lead the development of H7 caused more resentment from fans than disagreement with the vision and direction of the game itself.
To be honest, if the game wasn't so blatantly treated like crap by Ubi and if it wasn't so sluggish and buggish, I think a good 50% of the negativity about it -at least- would simply not be there.
If you mean that the amount of criticism and general tone of feedback would be reduced had Ubi done things in a different way and with the same end result, then I agree. But I do not think that a large portion of those who find the game lacking in some way, would find it less lacking - apart from the bugs. They would just be more care free about it, as with H6. Play it a little, get bored and forget about it. And the game would be largely forgotten at this point, instead of gathering large amounts of "negativity" whenever it is mentioned.
Momo said:
You may dislike lore or aesthethics or even certain aspects of the gameplay, but you could come to accept it eventually, adapt to them and even find them enjoyable at some point - this was my experience with HOMM4. If you feel insulted and misled by the producers over and over and you can't even play the game without going hysteric, there's a good chance you'll never ever grow to like it.
I don't care about lore or aesthetics much, I'm more about gameplay. Which was the reason I never bothered much with H4. I simply didn't like it. It was superior to H5 in both story and looks, but I was not entertained more than a few days. While H5 managed to keep my interest for a few years. It was the same with H6; it looked more appealing than its predecessor, but I found no joy in playing it.
I would say given the popularity of H5, considering how different it is from H3 in especially lore and aesthetics, but also gameplay, there is ample evidence that the Heroes fan base is very adaptable. Although the development and poor release of H5 has kept some people away for good, the majority of the players had no problem enjoying the game despite that.
Momo said:
Honestly, for how much I dislike most or Team Erwan's decisions, I am amazed at how he is getting all the blame and Ubisoft so little.
"Find a beloved franchise ---> Make one game every 2 year without any attention to quality or solidity ---> Take whatever you can from fans of the franchise ---> Suck the franchise dry ---> Abandon the franchise to die"
I don't share the impression that Erwan is getting all the blame. From what I read, Ubisoft is usually the big bad wolf. Erwan often gets in the spotlight because he is the man in charge and too often takes credit for precisely what many people dislike.
Although Ubi games often diminish in quality quickly, they are not unable to keep a franchise alive for a long time, and even improve after less successful installments. I think of Assassins Creed as one example. In those cases they are able to learn from their mistakes and deliver to the costumers what they want, with a sufficient amount of innovation to make the gaming experience feel familiar, but still fresh and exciting. With the Heroes series this has not been the case. Even though the communication to the public changed from H6 to H7, the execution was too similar.
Momo said:
This has been Ubi's standard procedure for a long time now. They aren't interested increating something solid and accessible as HOMM3 that lasts long... at all. People really think it all stems only from Erwan LeBreton's supposed raving lunacy? It doesn't.
I disagree. I do think they were interested in creating something solid and accessible with both H6 and H7 (of course not at the expense of financial success). Their expressed strategy with the M&M brand was having Heroes as a flagship surrounded with a bunch of smaller games, books, figurines, posters, card and board games, etc. Just like a block buster movie followed by all the merchandise imaginable. Heroes was supposed to be the driving engine for M&M, not just a quick buck. And I believe Erwan personally wants Heroes games to be enjoyable and successful games. The problem is that the vision this team has for Heroes seems to be something like a Kings Bounty - WoW hybrid.
Momo said:
This way instead you can randomly cut out factions (today the elves and dwarves, tomorrow inferno and naga, etc) and features (let's say the caravan) and various other contents because you are already thinking about selling the next add-on or even the next installment of the series. And you could even add features without thinking too much if they're good for the game (for instance, town conversion or reputation system) because you can always cut them the next time, revive it some installments later, etc etc etc
It's not about creating a long-lasting, satisfying product. It's about making a lot of unstatisfying products very quickly and sell them all and leave you hungry for the next one. It's fast food, not a restaurant.
THAT'S HOW UBI ROLLS, GUYS.
Again I think you are looking too narrowly at Heroes alone, and not the M&M brand as a whole (which Ubi does). In H7 they attempted to do the opposite of what you are describing, putting effort into the editor, RMG, even adding sim turns when they discovered that was a thing. All without additional cost. The lots of products you are talking about have been released under the M&M umbrella, consisting of: Clash of Heroes, Heroes Online, Heroes Kingdoms, Duel of Champions, M&M X, H3 HD and mobile games, as well as all the non-game products. Most of the people playing those games and buying those products do so because of Heroes. Ubi knows this, and therefore they want Heroes to be successful and even long-lasting games, so they can milk them with as much additional stuff as possible.
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3lion
Known Hero
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posted August 10, 2016 02:50 PM |
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Edited by 3lion at 14:57, 10 Aug 2016.
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Momo said:
Erwan is in fact the director they dream of. It creates hype and buzz and sells a product without worrying too much that it is unbalanced, undeveloped, unpolished, unfinished. Which is fine to them. It's even better, to them.
According to SteamSpy, Erwan's brilliant master mind sold less then 100k copies. Not sure that Ubi is considering it as a success.
EnergyZ said:
I know Ubi believes that "strategy games are not popular today" (which I disagree with), but it still doesn't make much sense to make another strategy games that they do not even believe it will succeed or bring them money (if any, at all).
According to SteamSpy, Endless Space and Endless Legend has almost 2 million customers total in Steam solely. Obviously this niche is quite deep.
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Hermes
Famous Hero
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posted August 10, 2016 03:34 PM |
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Seriously?
Endless is STEAM only, whereas Heroes 7 were sold on uplay also - for example, all collectors editions.
Besides, Endless is a cheaper game appealing to completely different fanbase(4x)
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3lion
Known Hero
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posted August 10, 2016 03:41 PM |
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Edited by 3lion at 15:44, 10 Aug 2016.
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True. But they share the same niche.
And Endless only 1,5 times cheaper. Even 500k copies is more tham Heroes's Steam + Uplay + DVD + whatever.
I mean... That if Ubi will invest and create a really good game it will be financially successful since the niche is not that small and cheap as we (or they) assume.
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted August 10, 2016 03:43 PM |
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Hermes said:
Seriously?
Endless is STEAM only, whereas Heroes 7 were sold on uplay also - for example, all collectors editions.
Besides, Endless is a cheaper game appealing to completely different fanbase(4x)
And all the more reason not to say strategy games are not popular.
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Come and visit the Might and Magic Wikia!
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Hermes
Famous Hero
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posted August 10, 2016 03:59 PM |
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Agre with what you said, but: 4X and TBS are not the same niche.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted August 10, 2016 04:08 PM |
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Turn-based strategy games are niche.
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3lion
Known Hero
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posted August 10, 2016 04:11 PM |
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Hermes said:
Agre with what you said, but: 4X and TBS are not the same niche.
TBS is quite wide genre. For me XCOM for example is a TBS as well. But I don't mind is they turn HoMM in 4x. I'd say that for me this makeover will be quite welcomed.
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3lion
Known Hero
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posted August 10, 2016 04:14 PM |
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Avirosb said:
Turn-based strategy games are niche.
Civilisation 5 is a TBS, rigth? More than 10 million copies worldwide. This niche is deep indded.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted August 10, 2016 04:27 PM |
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Hermes said:
Seriously?
Endless is STEAM only, whereas Heroes 7 were sold on uplay also - for example, all collectors editions.
lol seriously lol,
for instance MMX Legacy was also available on Uplay too, and it sold about twice as much as Heroes 7 did on Steam with an even more shoestring budget, and still regarded as a complete commercial loss and dismal failure by Ubisoft lol
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
