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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 19, 2014 12:04 PM |
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Alci, you are not discussing with me, but with Ubisoft. 
Anyway, about HoMM 2 and HoMM 3. There is a radical change in HoMM 3 when you consider the game economy and the town production versus army size. HoMM 3 is NOT better in this regard, or bigger (although it offers more), but DIFFERENT (and imo, not as good as HoMM 2).
HoMM V's Init bar change was - your definition - uncalled for, because there was nothing wrong with the old one.
Whether a change is ok or not simply depends on how it works out. And just because something works in one installment it's not guaranteed to work in another with a different "configuration".
However, I also agree with you on a very important point: HoMM 5 was a good, solid start, that fed a lot of interesting things into the mix. It would seem that Ubisoft or Black Hole or both didn't see that HoMM 5 offered a lot of unanswered questions - things that left something to be desired. They COULD have picked up the ball from there and simply continued, focussing on expanding the general principle.
Or maybe they did see it, I have no idea.
In any case, I remember that all the HoMM VI VIPs were shaking their heads when we were told that HoMM 5 skill system - universally identified as probably the best new thing in HoMM V - was to be changed; everyone had been pretty sure that the skill system had been made to stay.
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted October 19, 2014 12:31 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
However, I also agree with you on a very important point: HoMM 5 was a good, solid start, that fed a lot of interesting things into the mix. It would seem that Ubisoft or Black Hole or both didn't see that HoMM 5 offered a lot of unanswered questions - things that left something to be desired. They COULD have picked up the ball from there and simply continued, focussing on expanding the general principle.
As Avirosb said build upon, don't build anew.
H6 would have been good as a game build upon H5....
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted October 19, 2014 12:33 PM |
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Edited by Pawek_13 at 13:41, 19 Oct 2014.
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Stevie said:
Well I agree with you alcibiades for the most part. Just a note, I consider that 3 creature tiers is better than 7 because of the reduced gap in power which provides more balance. And I like the 7 elemental magic schools on preference, even if that might be an issue for balancing.
I don't know whether reduced power gap was such a good thing. I think that 3 tier system was done right in Clash of Heroes. They felt distinct and you could feel that core is nothing spectacular while champions felt like, well..., champions and that they are powerful but also rare. This is how it should be done in Heroes VII - much core units, medium in case of elite and rare but significantly powerful champions. In terms of magic system - as long as there are enough spells, I have nothing against it. I was mentioned that there is one magic school which will appear for sure in case of each faction (for example Light Magic in case of Haven), while you could set another magic in Magic guild which would be more likely to appear later. Reffering to what alci said about non-random skills - lack of randomness wasn't a problem in my opinion but poor choice of skills.
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fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
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posted October 19, 2014 12:41 PM |
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Edited by fuChris at 12:44, 19 Oct 2014.
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War-overlord said:
It seems somehow that nowadays, pulling off a good game is hard enough. Doing a game that has a legacy of a brilliant game sets expectations to the redonkulous from the get-go. Living up to that can be a very hard thing indeed.
Bull.
Making a good game is as hard as it was 15 years ago. You can't even blame the soulless corporate entities that plague the game making industry as they have been here since forever. Just look up on NWC and all their f*ckups.
As for the legacy part, you might think it hard to live up to it but in truth 85% of the game can be lifted from the previos installments.
Towns? Check.
They already have more towns than they are able to implement.
Creatures? Check.
We have a multitude of creatures all just waiting to get their turn to return to the current iteration of the game.
Setting? Check.
No point arguing about that. That train left long ago...
Music? Check.
Is it that hard to pick up the phone and call King/Romero? It's not even work. They probably compose a whole set of heroes music every four years just out of habit now... Not that the fans would mind if the music was simply lifted from the previous games.
Gameplay? Check.
Other than the heroes on the battlemap in H4, there has been no gameplay element added that has made the gameplay worse. And even that was not a bad feature just changed the game from a TBS to a Turn-Based-Strategy-RPG-Hybrid. The initative system and faction specialities in H5 while unbalanced added replayability to the game. Area of controll, town conversion, 3-tier creature system and blood-tears system? Not a problem. Area of controll is a mapmaker tool and can be used or not depending on map, just add a checkbock before starting the game if you want to use it or not. Same with Town conversion. 3-Tier units? If we get the same number of units them I don't see the problem. Harder to balace but not impossible. Same with 7 spellschools. A b*tch to balance but it does not retract from gameplay. Blood-Tear system is just a cheap way to introduce advanced hero classes. Proper advanced classes are the next step the game needs to take if they want to advance it.
The obvious problem that comes to mind is the lack of balance and game-testing but lets chalk that one up as Ubisoft-f*ckery and mismangement of resources(being cheepskates).
The only real problem is that with each iteration of the game it somehow managed to become LESS. Less towns, less spells, less creatures, less resources, less map objects less mapmaker tools. All they had to do is make ONE game that incorporated all these features while being balanced and allows a multiplayer community to thrive. It would set a new gold standard and the adding of new features would make sense for the first time since H3.
Untill that game happens H3 is going to be the gold standard and all other games will be a disappointment.
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"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
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aegisdivine
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 19, 2014 12:41 PM |
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The only reason they're making heroes games isn't to improve on it, but because they're still money to be made from all the diehard fans.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 19, 2014 12:51 PM |
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Stevie said:
Well I agree with you alcibiades for the most part. Just a note, I consider that 3 creature tiers is better than 7 because of the reduced gap in power which provides more balance. And I like the 7 elemental magic schools on preference, even if that might be an issue for balancing.
I guess that was indeed the idea behind the new tier system. However I agree with Pawek, it turned out not so great. As I see it, many players felt that level 1-2 creatures in old games were crappy so they wanted to have a system where all creatures were valuable and useful, but like a classic case of careful-what-you-wish-for what was not taken into regard was that with H6 system, cores were so powerful in their own right that champions completely lost their importance which didn't make the game more fun but more dull imo. because you lost the incentive to invest the time and resources in getting champions.
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What will happen now?
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 19, 2014 12:57 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 12:58, 19 Oct 2014.
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That's implementation and other mechanics like town conversion at play. But the idea of reduction in power gap is sound. You'll have a smaller discrepancy between 3 levels than between 7 levels.
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fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
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posted October 19, 2014 01:22 PM |
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Stevie said:
That's implementation and other mechanics like town conversion at play. But the idea of reduction in power gap is sound. You'll have a smaller discrepancy between 3 levels than between 7 levels.
The difference between 3 levels and 7 is that with 7 you imagine a faction army that is made up of all the inhabitants of the town plus advaced military units/killing machines. With a 3 tier system you imagine a professional army made up only of fully trained mercenaries who are affiliated to the town. That is why you will never see the peasants again with a 3 tier system.
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"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 19, 2014 01:29 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 13:32, 19 Oct 2014.
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Not like you saw them in Heroes 3 with 7 tiers.
But I get the flavor argument. And I think it's possible to have peasants in a 3 tiers system. Only they will not be your usual 1 hp 1 dmg peasants, for balance reasons.
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted October 19, 2014 01:32 PM |
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Stevie said:
That's implementation and other mechanics like town conversion at play. But the idea of reduction in power gap is sound. You'll have a smaller discrepancy between 3 levels than between 7 levels.
Not that the 3 tier system is bad, but the power gap in H6 was awful, the cores were simply too powerful compared to elites and champions
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hahakocka
Known Hero
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posted October 19, 2014 02:33 PM |
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Hi all there are the full 3 part video of our interview with Paul Romero!
Paul Romero interjú a Heroes 7-ről 1. rész
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lJYNazDvuM
Paul Romero interjú a Heroes 7-ről 2. rész
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ic5c3WDRj9E
Paul Romero interjú a Heroes 7-ről 3. rész
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 19, 2014 03:10 PM |
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LizardWarrior said:
Stevie said:
That's implementation and other mechanics like town conversion at play. But the idea of reduction in power gap is sound. You'll have a smaller discrepancy between 3 levels than between 7 levels.
Not that the 3 tier system is bad, but the power gap in H6 was awful, the cores were simply too powerful compared to elites and champions
Exactly this, and this raises the question, that while the implementation in H6 might have been particularly bad, exactly what good does this new system add to the series? Unless you make core creatures all similar to old level 1 (which means MORE bad creatures) the new system will by default mean a smaller gap between weakest creatures and more powerful creatures, and this will by default create the problems we saw in H6. It may be possible to balance it so problems become less pronounces, but still, exactly what good does the new system add to the game?
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What will happen now?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 19, 2014 04:19 PM |
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alcibiades said:
LizardWarrior said:
Stevie said:
That's implementation and other mechanics like town conversion at play. But the idea of reduction in power gap is sound. You'll have a smaller discrepancy between 3 levels than between 7 levels.
Not that the 3 tier system is bad, but the power gap in H6 was awful, the cores were simply too powerful compared to elites and champions
Exactly this, and this raises the question, that while the implementation in H6 might have been particularly bad, exactly what good does this new system add to the series? Unless you make core creatures all similar to old level 1 (which means MORE bad creatures) the new system will by default mean a smaller gap between weakest creatures and more powerful creatures, and this will by default create the problems we saw in H6. It may be possible to balance it so problems become less pronounces, but still, exactly what good does the new system add to the game?
I seem to remember that you've asked this already more than once and always got the answer, that the advantage is purely organisational in that 3 tiers fit well with 3 skill levels, while the creatures within a tier do not have to be halfway equal, but can be totally different.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 19, 2014 05:21 PM |
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Yes, I do remember hearing that creatures within same tier can now be of different strength. I guess I can see the connection to skill levels albeit this seems like a pretty minor benefit given that it's mostly racial skills that (in games so far at least) have had an interaction between skill level and creature level. But if in the end it's just a matter of labeling whether we call them level 1-2-3-4-5-6-7 or core/elite/champion I guess it doesn't matter too much.
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What will happen now?
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted October 19, 2014 08:07 PM |
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Peasants feel like a waste to me, I prefer having 'real' creatures instead 
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted October 19, 2014 08:47 PM |
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Storm-Giant said:
Peasants feel like a waste to me, I prefer having 'real' creatures instead
Not in Human Town dammit
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fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
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posted October 19, 2014 09:25 PM |
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Storm-Giant said:
Peasants feel like a waste to me, I prefer having 'real' creatures instead
Well I guess you don't want goblins, gnolls, gremlins, imps or troglodytes either.
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"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted October 19, 2014 09:41 PM |
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I don't see them as peasants.
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted October 19, 2014 10:15 PM |
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Storm-Giant said:
Peasants feel like a waste to me, I prefer having 'real' creatures instead
How dare you? In peasantry lies true power of every army! They have to be implemented to tyhe game, even in the form of neutral units!
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cleglaw
Famous Hero
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posted October 19, 2014 11:11 PM |
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no peasants please, it feels like wasted unit to me too.
i like the core/elite/champion order, it provides more choices. old 1-2-3-4-5-6-7 is just no brainer.
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
