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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted January 30, 2015 10:36 PM |
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Sandro400 said:
Of course! But still, getting beaten by some bearded fool...
beaten.
or let himself be beaten?
there is an important difference and Sandro is pragmatic enough to gain from such a move 
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted January 30, 2015 10:48 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
there is an important difference and Sandro is pragmatic enough to gain from such a move
Sandro also is very pride of himself and it's unlikely that he'll lose to a human on purpose. Nothing shorter of the Dragon-God will suit ^^
On a serious note, though, he now floats as a Void Wraith or Keeper (and that's something worser than death) in Lorekeep and remains such throughout whole Necro campaign in H5. Markal even hasn't tried anything to resurrect him and talks of Sandro as dead (really dead).
Now I'm sure Sandro will return, but it seems that he hasn't planned his death. Just like he hasn't planned his imprisonment in SoD ^^
____________
Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted January 30, 2015 10:54 PM |
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Sandro400 said:
kiryu133 said:
there is an important difference and Sandro is pragmatic enough to gain from such a move
Sandro also is very pride of himself and it's unlikely that he'll lose to a human on purpose. Nothing shorter of the Dragon-God will suit ^^
On a serious note, though, he now floats as a Void Wraith or Keeper (and that's something worser than death) in Lorekeep and remains such throughout whole Necro campaign in H5. Markal even hasn't tried anything to resurrect him and talks of Sandro as dead (really dead).
Now I'm sure Sandro will return, but it seems that he hasn't planned his death. Just like he hasn't planned his imprisonment in SoD ^^
another important difference: in SoD he was betrayed. he thought he had everything under control (pride, lol) so he didn't see it coming. If he was truly so prideful as to not allow himself to be beaten and somesuch, why settle for a puppet king in SoD? pride is not his defining characteristic though it is present. His defining characteristic is without a doubt being an evil, pragmatic snow. And that will always trump pride if they go against each other. 
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 30, 2015 10:59 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 23:02, 30 Jan 2015.
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War-overlord said:
Stevie said:
Em, no, she became a Vampire that moment. If not, then what did the ritual accomplish? A change in attire, pale skin and black hair that is somehow not connected to being a vampire? LoL. Her fundamental nature was changed that moment, it was the Kiss of the Spider Goddess ritual, not some silly bluff. Even the word "further" indicates that it further from something already established, and if it's not her vampiric nature, then what else is it?
Not only you do not become a vampire as a change of your spirit as you suggest by interpreting the phrase "your spirit shall be further purged in the crucible of the Goddess" literally, but there is already lore (Heroes 6 Vampire bio) that says that the change is in the body. The way that phrase is to be correctly interpreted is that she has to learn the Necromant's ways by being instructed in Heresh about Necromancy and the like.
And either way, that completely throws out the window the idea that you have to be a Lich and/or drink Namtaru Venom as a necessity in the process of becoming a Vampire.
First, this throws nothing out the window. The official lore was and is still that only Liches become Vampires. Especially since your proof to the contrary is an exerpt of a game that has recieved major retcons.
It does.
It's true that only Liches became Vampires at the time of Heroes 6. However the necessity does not follow from the process, and I've constructed my argument here. If becoming a Vampire requires only Namtaru venom and a ritual, then the Lich phase is superfluous to the process. And that's reasoning it in the terms of the Heroes 6 bios.
Ornella's case is just the finishing blow. The fact that it's from a game that received most of its retcons because of WH plagiarism has no relevance. Unless you somehow prove that that specific part of the lore was retconed too, which I asked you to do previously and you didn't. Until then, this point stands.
War-Overlord said:
Second, we know, for a fact that becoming a Vampire is extremely painfull. We know this both from page 127 of the Compendium and from the Heroes 6 description. Whatever it was that we have seen, Ornella has shown no indication that she was in any pain. Furthermore, Arantir's comment about further purging in the crucible of Asha is not a very veiled reference to the fact that whatever is yet to come, it is very difficult and torturous. Having to undergo the excruciating pain of becoming a Vampire fits that description much better than learning Necromancy, since that is something even the most magically ungifted Death Knight is able to perform.
We know that the Heroes 6 way of becoming a vampire is very painful. The fact that Ornella apparently didn't suffer is a further confirmation that it was a different ritual.
And as I said, you interpret that phrase literally, while I take it as a metaphor for her trials (Anastasya, 1st mission).
War-Overlord said:
Second her appearance does not prove much, Ornella's hair was already dark, her skin was never tan.
In fact, this may have been as you suggest may have been an elaborate bluff. For if this achieved anything, it made Giovanni show his and and try to attack Arantir, which was something Arantir expected from the beginning.
Her appearance proves enough. Her cinematic model before the ritual has brown hair and brighter clothes, whereas after the ritual it has black hair and darker clothes. The difference is rather noticeable in her portraits:
 
So yea, it mostly boils down to you proving that Ornella's vampire transformation has been retconed. If not, the case is simply crushing.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted January 30, 2015 11:08 PM |
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Stevie said:
We know that the Heroes 6 way of becoming a vampire is very painful. The fact that Ornella apparently didn't suffer is a further confirmation that it was a different ritual.
And as I said, you interpret that phrase literally, while I take it as a metaphor for her trials (Anastasya, 1st mission).
So yea, it mostly boils down to you proving that Ornella's vampire transformation has been retconed. If not, the case is simply crushing.
The fact remains that Heroes 6 and the details of the Compendium are the canon. Your wishfull thinking and believing does not change jack-didly.
The burden of proof is not on me. Only the broadest story-lines of the H5 are accepted as canon, everything else falls under Nival's too broad artistic license unless confirmed. It is up to you to prove that this ritual is canon.
And so far, nothing in Heroes 6, M&M X and the Compendium supports your theory.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted January 30, 2015 11:29 PM |
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War-overlord said:
The burden of proof is not on me. Only the broadest story-lines of the H5 are accepted as canon, everything else falls under Nival's too broad artistic license unless confirmed. It is up to you to prove that this ritual is canon.
And so far, nothing in Heroes 6, M&M X and the Compendium supports your theory.
sorry but that's utterly ridiculous lol, the burden is definitely on you to prove that something we saw happen in the games didn't happen
it's the Heroes of Might and Magic video game series, not a Eugene Ionesco surrealist play lol
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 30, 2015 11:40 PM |
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verriker said:
War-overlord said:
The burden of proof is not on me. Only the broadest story-lines of the H5 are accepted as canon, everything else falls under Nival's too broad artistic license unless confirmed. It is up to you to prove that this ritual is canon.
And so far, nothing in Heroes 6, M&M X and the Compendium supports your theory.
sorry but that's utterly ridiculous lol, the burden is definitely on you to prove that something we saw happen in the games didn't happen
it's the Heroes of Might and Magic video game series, not a Eugene Ionesco surrealist play lol
Well W-O does have a point, in that UbiSoft seems to piss high and mighty on everything that happened before H6, whereas any decision made in H6 or after can never ever be changed, because now it is lore and therefore law and can never be put to question ...
____________
What will happen now?
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted January 30, 2015 11:43 PM |
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What makes me wonder more is that: they butcher the crap out of H5's lore which was in Top 3, then they come with the crappy h6 which you couldn't even call a heroes game and set it as a role-model lawl
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 30, 2015 11:46 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 23:50, 30 Jan 2015.
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As Verikker says, the burden of proof is actually on you. Last time I checked Heroes V was still Ashan and considered Canon to the series. Everything in it is Canon until it's otherwise clearly specified that it isn't.
Furthermore, you seem to miss a very important point. The majority of the retconing Heroes V suffered was because of licensed visuals, models and other concepts like Asha's 3 moons. The only exception is Tribes of the East, and Marzhin confirmed it on several occasions. Here's just one.
And guess under which expansion Ornella's vampire transition happened.
Sorry, ball's in your court.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted January 30, 2015 11:53 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
another important difference: in SoD he was betrayed. he thought he had everything under control (pride, lol) so he didn't see it coming. If he was truly so prideful as to not allow himself to be beaten and somesuch, why settle for a puppet king in SoD? pride is not his defining characteristic though it is present. His defining characteristic is without a doubt being an evil, pragmatic snow. And that will always trump pride if they go against each other.
And do you know the full story of Ashan Sandro's demise? He might have been betrayed as well - by Lucretia, for example.
Where did I say that pride is his defining chararteristic? Please, read carefully, I just said that Sandro has pride. Just in case: proper pride.
And nope, Sandro never was "evil". Climbing politics and trying to rule the world doesn't make you evil. Nor he was evil in Jadame. Ambitious is the word for him.
My point is: even if we're talking about Sandro, don't make everything seem like "just as planned".
Can anybody tell me what's happening again? I simply don't understand what Stevie tries to proof. Enlighten me please.
____________
Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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A8T
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 30, 2015 11:54 PM |
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Taken from the recent article
"Kaspar’s comment: “Vampires become what they are by drinking Namtaru Venom, but there is also another way. Only the highest-ranking and most powerful Necromancers master this ‘Ritual of the Night’, which can forcibly return a soul into its recently-deceased corpse. The soul must be willing to return, though, or there’s a chance the reborn Akhkharu will be a bloodthirsty monster...”"
Could that not explain Ornela? Also, if I remember correctly, in Heroes Online in the Namtaru's Claw section there is a daily quest involving spider cultists who are brewing venom other than Namtaru's venom to achieve immortality (again, if I remember correctly). The quest giver is annoyed as he thinks this way is unholy as it avoids using Namtaru's. Thats said we have no idea if it works.
Bottom line I think, is though there are other ways to become a lich or vampire but Namtaru's Venom is the most common by far and thus makes up the majority of units and chracters seen in the game.
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted January 30, 2015 11:57 PM |
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Edited by kiryu133 at 00:08, 31 Jan 2015.
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what would this prove anyway? what's the point? this entire debate was pretty stagnant 20 pages ago. Can't we talk about crossovers instead and how perfect Trixie would be as a necromancer? (she's even got the cape and evil artifact already)
We've been over this several times i'm sure. Skeletal Liches won't happen anytime soon. just accept it for all our sanity.
EDIT:
Sandro400 said:
And do you know the full story of Ashan Sandro's demise? He might have been betrayed as well - by Lucretia, for example.
Where did I say that pride is his defining chararteristic? Please, read carefully, I just said that Sandro has pride. Just in case: proper pride.
And nope, Sandro never was "evil". Climbing politics and trying to rule the world doesn't make you evil. Nor he was evil in Jadame. Ambitious is the word for him.
My point is: even if we're talking about Sandro, don't make everything seem like "just as planned".
i am not familiar with Ashan Sandros story, no. though hints at being betrayed (again? really?) certainly would mess with his plans. And i gues syou never said Pride was his primary characteristic though i read it as such. doesn't change my point that everything takes a backseat to his pragmatic evilness. Pride is his biggest weakness though and yes, he's a pragmatic, evil snow. Actually having him "dead" or spirited or whatever that snow means seems a somewhat boring way of removing him from play: his tenacious ability to survive no matter what and come back to wreak havoc over and over is what makes him so great to begin with.
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A8T
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 31, 2015 12:01 AM |
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kiryu133 said:
what would this prove anyway? what's the point? this entire debate was pretty stagnant 20 pages ago. Can't we talk about crossovers instead and how perfect Trixie would be as a necromancer? (she's even got the cape and evil artifact already)
We've been over this several times i'm sure. Skeletal Liches won't happen anytime soon. just accept it for all our sanity.
Ahh, But what about Skeleton Dragon Liches!!
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Pavijan
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 31, 2015 12:05 AM |
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@War-overlord and Sandro400 :
Yeah I understand what are you saying, for vampires at lest.
But I thought that one of defining characteristics of a lich in fantasy is that it is a spellcaster, otherwise its just an undead guy (skeleton, mummy or death knight).
Anyway, it's really hard for me to get used to this silly concept. Vampires upgrading to Liches I can understand but this snow...
I can appreciate the need to be original, but not at the cost of poorly thought concepts that many people have to make up lots of headcanon to make some sense of it.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 31, 2015 12:05 AM |
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Edited by Stevie at 00:09, 31 Jan 2015.
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A8T said:
Taken from the recent article
"Kaspar’s comment: “Vampires become what they are by drinking Namtaru Venom, but there is also another way. Only the highest-ranking and most powerful Necromancers master this ‘Ritual of the Night’, which can forcibly return a soul into its recently-deceased corpse. The soul must be willing to return, though, or there’s a chance the reborn Akhkharu will be a bloodthirsty monster...”"
Could that not explain Ornela? Also, if I remember correctly, in Heroes Online in the Namtaru's Claw section there is a daily quest involving spider cultists who are brewing venom other than Namtaru's venom to achieve immortality (again, if I remember correctly). The quest giver is annoyed as he thinks this way is unholy as it avoids using Namtaru's. Thats said we have no idea if it works.
Bottom line I think, is though there are other ways to become a lich or vampire but Namtaru's Venom is the most common by far and thus makes up the majority of units and chracters seen in the game.
You sir, have destroyed any kind of argument in favor of ritual uniqueness. One can become a Vampire under more than just the Heroes 6 ritual and Namtaru bullcrap, which is what I've been claiming all along.
Thank you.
So now we have 3 rituals under which someone can become a Vampire:
- Whatever they were doing in Heroes 6
- Ritual of the Night
- Kiss of the Spider Goddess ritual in Heroes 5.
Completely destroyed, WO, completely.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted January 31, 2015 12:10 AM |
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A8T said:
Ahh, But what about Skeleton Dragon Liches!!
is this a thing? cause i feel this needs to be a thing.
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted January 31, 2015 12:11 AM |
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Stevie said:
So now we have 3 rituals under which someone can become a Vampire:
- Whatever they were doing in Heroes 6
- Ritual of the Night
- Kiss of the Spider Goddess ritual in Heroes 5.
Kiss of the Spider Goddess IS the ritual of becoming Vampire through Namtaru poison. So only 2 ways of becoming a Vampire.
Ritual of the Night brings a soul back to recently deceased body. Not instantly deceased.
Even in victory you manage to fail with lore
____________
Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 31, 2015 12:15 AM |
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Edited by artu at 02:12, 31 Jan 2015.
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alcibiades said:
UbiSoft seems to piss high and mighty on everything that happened before H6, whereas any decision made in H6 or after can never ever be changed, because now it is lore and therefore law and can never be put to question ...
It's fantasy, even in real literature, a writer can come up with pretty much anything (not as in non-sense but as in rationalizing a sudden change with some explanation such as "the wizards swore not to cast magic in that forest anymore") if the plot requires it. So, what I dont understand about all this lore debate buried in so much detail is, everybody ignoring the fact that even if you stick to some lore, that lore is modifiable. As long as you make tasteful decisions in terms of gameplay and atmosphere, nobody will react with a mentality like "no, those wizards wouldnt swear to that, you ruined Heroes 7 now!"
If Ubisoft claims some of their decisions are because of the lore, it's probably because that's the easiest way to dodge the objections, I highly doubt they are fanatically devoted to their "story" and they dont change it out of some genuine artistic dedication to the nuances in its fiction.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted January 31, 2015 12:16 AM |
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Warlord darling dont bother. You're right but given that stupidity is an incurable disease, they will continue talking. The less they're adressed the better.
Whatever, I'm glad they arent breaking the lore for that idiocy.
In other topic, I really hope Lucretia returns. If she betrays Sandro (which she may do given she should be alive in H5 era) and he replaces with someone called Vidomina i wouldnt be angry at all.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 31, 2015 12:21 AM |
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Edited by Stevie at 00:22, 31 Jan 2015.
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Sandro400 said:
Stevie said:
So now we have 3 rituals under which someone can become a Vampire:
- Whatever they were doing in Heroes 6
- Ritual of the Night
- Kiss of the Spider Goddess ritual in Heroes 5.
Kiss of the Spider Goddess IS the ritual of becoming Vampire through Namtaru poison. So only 2 ways of becoming a Vampire.
Ritual of the Night brings a soul back to recently deceased body. Not instantly deceased.
Even in victory you manage to fail with lore
Kiss of the Spider Goddess IS NOT the same ritual as in Heroes 6. The ritual is 100% displayed in the cinematic where Ornella becomes a vampire in Heroes 5, and it DOES NOT involve Namtaru venom. If I'm not mistaking, the concept of Namtaru was altogether non-existent in Heroes 5.
So it's actually 3.
BUT REGARDLESS, the argument from uniqueness has been completely shatter with the new Heroes 7 lore.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
