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fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
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posted February 02, 2015 03:38 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Nonsense.
I know its hard to belive but many people(me included) were put off multiplayer gaming by the ridiculous time it took a turn to be finished thanks to the hero chaining that was fuelled by all the free stuff lying around everywhere or many custom maps.
I for one do not miss the the times it took some people to have 10 minute turns. Sim-turns or not, the unnecessary number of heroes that are needed to sweep the map clean would still lead to unnecessarily long turns.
No. Make the piles of resources bigger but have them guarded. That way you are forced into creeping to keep the economy up while limiting the number of heroes necessary to 3 or 4.
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"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 02, 2015 04:11 PM |
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If you talk about HoMM VI - sure, but that was because HoMM 6 lacked MAP OBJECTS. And the lack of DIFFERENT resources as well: you were all the time fighting over 3 Wood/Ore or a Dragoncrystal. But it has nothing to do with the economy and the Capitol question.
You should play HoMM 4: While the gameplay AS SUCH may not be to your liking, the economy, the map objects and the placement of "cashes" with loose resource piles are exemplary.
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fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
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posted February 02, 2015 04:54 PM |
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It has everything to do with it. Unless the starting area comes with a goldmine as well and not just the regular lumbermill and ore mines, you will be hard pressed to keep the economy up and buy an additional artifact or an extra spell or even units from external dwellings rendering all of these map objects useless.
Picking up resources is one way to finance the economy if no gold mine is present or no capitol allowed. But that is not viable with 3+ castles. The other being skills that produce resources like in H4 but that is best limited to 1 perk only.
Allowing a capital to be built only well within the 2nd month takes away the pressure from the player to pick unnecessary fights and allows one to concentrate on the main objectives that are exploration, taking free towns and hunting down enemy faster than your enemy can hunt down you.
Point is the money has to come from somewhere. People have been asking for more map objects and more ways to spend the money and not for lesser money.
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"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 02, 2015 05:17 PM |
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fuChris said:
Unless the starting area comes with a goldmine as well and not just the regular lumbermill and ore mines there are other sources than your town of where to get a regular income from, you will be hard pressed to keep the economy up and buy an additional artifact or an extra spell or even units from external dwellings rendering all of these map objects useless.
Corrected that for you for convenience. And of course the "other sources" would be there, because that's where the additional map objects come into play, but why repeat myself?
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted February 02, 2015 05:22 PM |
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I think you are too focused on the idea, that everything has to be accessible.
Why?
Why should a player have access to all creatures at all time? Why can't he be forced to make decisions? TO find a balance of expense, income and development.
P.s. I think it there would be something very bad with a TBS if it had short turns. Heck 2,5 min is sometimes not enought for me to play one card.
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fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
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posted February 02, 2015 05:58 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
And of course the "other sources" would be there, because that's where the additional map objects come into play, but why repeat myself?
Yes. More map objects, no matter their purpose are good. No matter if goldmine or watermill.
But what do we really gain by not having access to a capitol?
Now you have to capture 8 windmills and 5 watermills to have the same amount of gold, while at the same time you could be out there capturing cities and actually winning the game.
What I assume you would like to introduce this way is a higher significance to creeping, but that is already the most significant phase of the game. The only differnece this would make is that you would have to choose between capturing economic buildings and military ones. But in the end you would always choose the economc ones untill 1 week before you go to meet the enemy because in the end it is the army that wins the day.
Dave_Jame said:
Why should a player have access to all creatures at all time? Why can't he be forced to make decisions? TO find a balance of expense, income and development.
P.s. I think it there would be something very bad with a TBS if it had short turns. Heck 2,5 min is sometimes not enought for me to play one card.
There is nothing wrong with limited access but at the moment this would limit us to maybe 4-5 creatures max and that would probably not vary much from game to game either thus making the game more boring in the long run.
And don't mix this game up with the civilization games. It is not a choice between crossbowmen and horsearchers. This is not empire building. The only balance you have to find is, do I want to fight the map a bit more or do I want to take my chances with the opponent?
Different factions peak at different time in their development and so should heroes. That is more than enough to concentrate on while strategizing.
And there is a major difference between 10min turns and 2,5 min turns.
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"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted February 02, 2015 06:29 PM |
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fuChris said:
There is nothing wrong with limited access but at the moment this would limit us to maybe 4-5 creatures max and that would probably not vary much from game to game either thus making the game more boring in the long run.
And don't mix this game up with the civilization games. It is not a choice between crossbowmen and horsearchers. This is not empire building. The only balance you have to find is, do I want to fight the map a bit more or do I want to take my chances with the opponent?
Different factions peak at different time in their development and so should heroes. That is more than enough to concentrate on while strategizing.
And there is a major difference between 10min turns and 2,5 min turns.
I'll give you few points
1: A situation, which you yourself described, when you go first for capitol, then for creatures, then for castles is something you would describe as "the same from game to game", and Heroes VI has shown that this is not fun.
BTW what is more varied 7 out of 7, or 1-7 out of 7?
2: The last games I played, (H6, I did not use more then 3 creatures, the rest just stood there, or I didn't bother to build at all.
3: Not having the resources does not , TAKE the creatures away. Sure you have to choose. Sure You may not have All of tham AT ONCE. But you still can have ANY of them.
Let's make comparison. If you have 5 guns, and can buy ammo for any of them, but not for all 5 at once, do you have less guns? No You still have 5 but now you have to think and plan since you know that there will be more cash for Ammo later. Its called strategy, and I expect this from a strategy game that has an economical part. Which heroes has.
4: Let's exaggerate! If there should be no choice in what we buy, no limitations, then why bother with all the micro management then. No towns, no resources, just instantly increase my army size by 1 for each week. Would that be fun? Again, ask Heros VI and how town conversion helped it's gameplay.
5: you talked about turns being long, 2,5 mins is not that much? In a game that last 15 min, it is. 10 minutes in a heroes game, that last 2+ hours? not that much. Also, Turns take to long because you have to pick up so many things? Well it would be nice if it would make a difference, not just be a chore. Sadly The economical tumor of the capitals lowers its impact.
Quote:
But what do we really gain by not having access to a capitol?
We will actually have gameplay, we will have a live map, wich has some meaning, and is not just a random desplai of objects that we rarerly use. And nothing's stopping you from going and making other cities your source of disposable income, As it was in H1-2 and 4.
The problem is. In H2 when I found a Gold mine, I was thrilled. I suddenly had cash! I could buy the production of that second castle I had, I had a second army. It meant something.
What does finding a Goldmine mean in H3? or in H6? Nothing since 4k vs 5k is not that much of an difference, when compared to 1,25k vs 2,25k.
____________
I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 02, 2015 06:30 PM |
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Look, I don't need to introduce anything, because it's been there - in Homm 1, 2 and 4 - as opposed to 3,5 and 6.
In other words: NWC did only ONE of their 4 games with a Capitol, while 3 worked with a different - and frankly, better - economy, where you had a lot of interesting choices to make and where the difference between "village" and town was significant (those 3 HoMM games come with a lot of "small towns" you cannot produce anything in except what they already come with, unless you make a very significant investment).
Ubisoft, on the other hand, simply switched back to HoMM 3, not thinking much about this.
Now, the problem is, that HoMM 1, 2 and 4 come with a couple of downsides when compared with 3, for example creature amount, hero slots, the Waiting command and others, therefore it's difficult to simply look at the basic economics there.
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted February 02, 2015 06:34 PM |
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Galaad said:
Zombi_Wizzard said:
This is because from my experience most games are over by maybe month 3 at the worst
Even on XL maps?
I was talking about multiplayer 1v1 games, where there are only two towns - yours and that of the enemy (as this was the type JJ was talking about). Those maps are small. In XL maps sure, games tend to get much longer, but I usualy don't play those multiplayer. If I do, it's LAN game with my brother. Multiplayer is small maps. On XL maps it's no problem, since you have more cities to build and recruit from.
fuChris said:
I know its hard to belive but many people(me included) were put off multiplayer gaming by the ridiculous time it took a turn to be finished thanks to the hero chaining that was fuelled by all the free stuff lying around everywhere or many custom maps.
Agree.
JollyJoker said:
Look, basically ALL town buildings that increase the base income are more or less REDUNDANT! Paying gold to earn more gold is complete bollocks.
Why then do we not remove all gold producing building from a town, including village hall and town hall?
Capitol is there to make the game a bit faster paced. If you would only rely on outside resources, first few months of the game, there would be harldy any action.
Paying gold to earn more gold is not bollocks. It's called investment. Instead of buying army NOW, you INVEST that gold to have more army LATER. In doing so, you make yourself voulnarable to enemy who didn't do that. If enemy didn't manage to destroy you in time, or hampered his economy too much by rushing, you will be ahead. However if enemy attacked you on week 2 and took your town ... well you lose.
Problem with H6 capitol wasn't that it existed, but that there was almost no risk, in building early capitol. In H5 that risk wasn't big, but it was present, in H3 it was bigger risk.
What im trying to say is - if there's no Capitol, then noone will be investing anything. So all risks of making your army weak for first few weeks is gone.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted February 02, 2015 06:52 PM |
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Quote:
Paying gold to earn more gold is not bollocks. It's called investment. Instead of buying army NOW, you INVEST that gold to have more army LATER. In doing so, you make yourself voulnarable to enemy who didn't do that. If enemy didn't manage to destroy you in time, or hampered his economy too much by rushing, you will be ahead. However if enemy attacked you on week 2 and took your town ... well you lose.
But doesn't your investment supposed to be Creatures and Spell. Things that help you earn the gold rather then generate it?
You say that capitals help to speed up the gameplay. But at the same time you know they take up to 1 month to construct. Taking away one month of gameplay.
On the other hand in H2, I'm playing from day one. An at the time of your capitol I could be having several towns, mines or dwellings. You don't spend the first week of a game building up things that don't help me play, just so it would "speed it up later". You won't starve yourself just to have more food later.
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Kimarous
Supreme Hero
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posted February 02, 2015 06:58 PM |
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supertommy
Known Hero
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posted February 02, 2015 06:59 PM |
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Kimarous said:
Tyris?
Definitely looks like it.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted February 02, 2015 07:00 PM |
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Kimarous
Supreme Hero
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posted February 02, 2015 07:02 PM |
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dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
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posted February 02, 2015 07:02 PM |
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Holly $hit, why are units giant on the adventure map? It breaks immersion if they are so much out of proportion...
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted February 02, 2015 07:05 PM |
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Wait until you see the game zoomed out. These are zoomed in a lot. And belive me, you don't want things in proportion. H6 tried this and Faild with it. They are icons, tokens.
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dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
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posted February 02, 2015 07:06 PM |
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Dave_Jame said:
And belive me, you don't want things in proportion. H6 tried this and Faild with it. They are icons, tokens.
I agree, but those are extremely large. That archer is much taller than surrounding trees. In fact it is more then twice its height.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted February 02, 2015 07:06 PM |
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Who's this Academy hero?
dark-whisperer said:
Holly $hit, why are units giant on the adventure map? It breaks immersion if they are so much out of proportion...
And small in the battlefield, the snow :[
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted February 02, 2015 07:07 PM |
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supertommy said:
Kimarous said:
Tyris?
Definitely looks like it.
Agreed. That sure looks like her.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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Wellplay
Famous Hero
Poland Stronk
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posted February 02, 2015 07:08 PM |
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dark-whisperer said:
Holly $hit, why are units giant on the adventure map? It breaks immersion if they are so much out of proportion...
As Dave_Jame mentioned they changed scale of objects cause you can zoom out a lot.
So people can have better control over the map than in H6.
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