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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 27, 2015 01:27 PM |
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The problem is Galaad that many people, such as myself, feel that the legacy and feel of old games lies in the gameplay, more than art design.
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To say it simply, even if some games like H2 or H3 had a unique art feel that transcended time, it was not the spirit of the game. The mechanics and the "just one more turn" addiction were.
Again, I never said gameplay was not important. I’ve already said many times I think gameplay is EQUALLY important. When I bashed on HVI at the time it was out, I didn’t even criticize the art direction, I clearly was outraged by the gameplay and I have made that well known.
You see, I think both mechanics and atmosphere are tied, I put no preference there, if one fails the other, the game will fail in its attempt of being the next huge phenomenon of the series.
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Again I will list the 4 factions I did last page, Academy, Inferno, stronghold, H7 haven. I would like to know if you think these factions were limited in the impact of their general feel by Ashan.
Ashan Stronghold, for me was a disappointment. Again, a cool racial ability which affected the essence of the Town. As I answered to War-overlord before, I consider these units as a “demonic hyperbole”, but let’s see what the Team is cooking up for us in the upcoming game, I wish badly for it to look just as awesome as Wolf Duchy or Academy.
Inferno I will disagree as well, especially in HVI. Aside the Pit Lord, I only saw overdone generic demons which reminded me of Starcraft.
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I felt for a long time that M&M is very Necro-centred. The fan base is very attracted to this side, and the devs have the need to put them in every game they create.
You cannot blame the developers to implement a faction a majority of players likes a lot. But you can blame them for butchering it. Why is Necro “butchered”? Again, because of the lore, hence Ashan.
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted February 27, 2015 01:39 PM |
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@Galaad
Thank you for your post. You're actually the first one ever who tries to give a reasonable answer.
But let me ask you one more question. What is this "unique atmosphere" of Heroes, this feeling? Can you describe it in words? And do everyone share your view on this "feeling"? (sorry, 3 questions)
Because for me this atmosphere wasn't in graphics. Even not so much in lore. It was in the game itself. It was in this wonderful magical, fairytale world - the adventure map - filled with shiny thingies waiting to be taken, fantastic creatures guarding treasures. It was in this sound horse makes when you click your mouse. In the feeling that you're a Hero who commands an army of legendary creatures. In the fact that you should use your brains to win. It was in the music. In the townscreens, the way you build your own fortress step by step. Believe me or not, I actually miss the sound when you build a structure in H3 (there was even a mod to H5 bringing this sound back). I always played with Necro and Fortress (for the Undead and lots of reptiles respectively), not because of their creature visuals but because of the concept itself. And many more, I find it very hard to put this feeling into words. And I dare anybody say that my view in the atmosphere is "wrong".
Did Ubi Heroes lost some of it's charm? Yes. Now we have high fantasy contrary to H2-3 styles. But mind you, H4 started this way to high fantasy (by tossing away "fairy style"), not H6. H5, on the other hand, was a brilliant Heroes experience for me. It had this faitytale feel, this rich adventure map, - cartoon design really helped to give this feeling! It was so true to Heroes title - even if introducing the new world. That's the point. The feeling was there even with different setting.
H6 was the definition of disaster, a crap and I won't discuss it as a game. But some very good things lore- and atmosphere-wise (Sanctuary faction, Faceless, Order of the Void, it was a beautiful crap after all) were made during H6 era (I consider them separately from H6 itself).
Surprisingly, Clash of Heroes for me became a great Hero experience even if it isn't a Hero title. Just play this game.
Now the time has come for H7. And I have every reason to believe that it will deliver great Heroes experience. Surely, it won't be 100% like old Heroes - we have switched to high fantasy, which means we lost something, but - but! - also gained something in return. Remember, the setting, the art-style, the lore by themselves can't be bad. What matters is the implementation.
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@Stevie
Thank you too, though...
Look, what you describe again falls under personal preference. You and many others (me included) prefer old approach to medieval orientation, and we have proofs that it can exist within Ashan. Some like high fantasy (read over-decorated style) more. Warcraft, Warcraft, Warcraft.
P.S.: Edward Vampires? That's an insult even Ashan does not deserve ^^ And it's a wrong insult, there's nothing Edward in it, beautiful Vampires came long before that crappy book.
And yeah, Skeleton's shield doesn't look like a spider (it has an emblem of it). If you're referring to the "almost split in half" shield, actually, "figure-of-8" shields were used in Ancient Greece... it may work well in combination with their curvy swords.
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 27, 2015 01:54 PM |
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The problem - or ONE problem - seems to be that the game started out very "cartoony". Stylized, if you want to. HoMM 1 and 2 don't give a feel of "reality". They are fairy-tale-ish, and the Necro faction is kind of a horror story town (Sylvans are the good wood creatures from the fairy tales and so on).
With Homm 3 things started to change, and from then on things have become more "realistic" - or better: less fairy-tale-ish - with each game, supported by 3d and creature models.
The "special feel" of HoMM is, however, EXACTLY the fairy-tale atmosphere (leading to way above average female gamers there), with HoMM 3 going A BIT darker and A BIT more what COULD BE described as "realistic", but still 2d and all, the changes were not severe. Things still were at least ICONIC, when you look at the Devils, for example.
And this is exactly the problem: with 3d and all, NATURALLY things get a more realistic approach because things look a lot more realistic anyway. Which is where things start to go wrong, actually, because making that really work needs a very high quality standard and a generally coherent style (and color-coding stuff is no replacement for coherence here).
So what we have is something that STRAINS AND STRUGGLES to be realistic - but simply ISN'T (because things are overloaded with stuff, for example).
THAT - in a nutshell - is the difference, artistically and atmospherically, and, remember, they did know this, because initially they hired Olivier Ledroit which obviously would have gone back to more HoMM 2 - being ICONIC again.
Whether that would have worked or not, is an open question, of course, even though I have a clear opinion here.
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted February 27, 2015 02:00 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
The problem - or ONE problem - seems to be that the game started out very "cartoony". Stylized, if you want to. HoMM 1 and 2 don't give a feel of "reality". They are fairy-tale-ish, and the Necro faction is kind of a horror story town (Sylvans are the good wood creatures from the fairy tales and so on).
With Homm 3 things started to change, and from then on things have become more "realistic" - or better: less fairy-tale-ish - with each game, supported by 3d and creature models.
Exactly. Precisely. 99% correct.
JollyJoker said:
THAT - in a nutshell - is the difference, artistically and atmospherically, and, remember, they did know this, because initially they hired Olivier Ledroit which obviously would have gone back to more HoMM 2 - being ICONIC again.
Whether that would have worked or not, is an open question, of course, even though I have a clear opinion here.
P-p-please
This is more H2?
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted February 27, 2015 02:01 PM |
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Galaad said:
You cannot blame the developers to implement a faction a majority of players likes a lot. But you can blame them for butchering it. Why is Necro “butchered”? Again, because of the lore, hence Ashan.
You cannot blame the developers to implement a faction a majority of players likes a lot in their games, but you can when they are overdoing it, and therefore I do.
It is the same as the spider theme. You cannot blame the owner of the IP that he wants to give a part of his property a characteristic feature, but you can when he is overdoing it, and therefore you do.
Galaad said:
Again, I never said gameplay was not important. I’ve already said many times I think gameplay is EQUALLY important.
But for a lot of people mechanics are not equal, they are above.
Galaad said:
Ashan Stronghold, for me was a disappointment. Again, a cool racial ability which affected the essence of the Town. As I answered to War-overlord before, I consider these units as a “demonic hyperbole”, but let’s see what the Team is cooking up for us in the upcoming game, I wish badly for it to look just as awesome as Wolf Duchy or Academy.
Inferno I will disagree as well, especially in HVI. Aside the Pit Lord, I only saw overdone generic demons which reminded me of Starcraft.
I have a problem fallowing this sentence and its logic. You were disappointed by something cool that influenced the essence of the faction? So it was bad that they made something cool and gave it some importance? Or Did you had the feeling the faction is rage-centered?
Ok I will drop this logic just to say this. Orc and the entire stronghold faction are created in such a way, that unlike necropolis, gives great variety and freedom. Their primary aesthetical features are created by their environment, and not the lore behind the faction. The lore itself is mostly not visible until you engage the story part, as it should be. There is freedom in their approach that most factions do not have.
I'm a big fan of "green-skin literature" Books written from the perspective of an orc or a goblin, and there is something in this mixture of barbaric pride, freedom, independence, savageness and cosmopolitan thinking that makes this the best depiction of orcs i have yet to encounter.
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I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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Neraus
Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
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posted February 27, 2015 02:11 PM |
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Edited by Neraus at 14:37, 27 Feb 2015.
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kiryu133 said:
Dave_Jame said:
ABut other factions or individual creatures have in my opinion benefited from Ashan's presence.
To avoid any potential questions I think some of them are these
Haven (As it is presented in H7)
partly agree except...
can we get some faces in here? no?
ok 
Heroes III disagrees with you... 
 
There is some logic behind this design, and I like that, this way they are both armoured and generic, so as to avoid that awkward situation that happened with the previous iterations.
It also helps in the case of Chaplains and Abbots, as this way they keep the appearance of mysterious mystic figures.
And in Angels, well, Mythology says that Angels have the most odd figures as their appearance can't be understood by mere mortals, so portraying their face is quite difficult (even though in art they have human faces).
Is every soldier brown haired or blonde? Do they have a beard or not? Who knows, and that's what I like.
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 27, 2015 02:19 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 14:21, 27 Feb 2015.
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Sandro400 said:
@Stevie
Thank you too, though...
Look, what you describe again falls under personal preference. You and many others (me included) prefer old approach to medieval orientation, and we have proofs that it can exist within Ashan. Some like high fantasy (read over-decorated style) more. Warcraft, Warcraft, Warcraft.
P.S.: Edward Vampires? That's an insult even Ashan does not deserve ^^ And it's a wrong insult, there's nothing Edward in it, beautiful Vampires came long before that crappy book.
And yeah, Skeleton's shield doesn't look like a spider (it has an emblem of it). If you're referring to the "almost split in half" shield, actually, "figure-of-8" shields were used in Ancient Greece... it may work well in combination with their curvy swords.
I don't think it falls under preference at all. Something having a "medieval fantasy" design and something else having a "high fantasy" one is not a question of preference. Otherwise, I wouldn't be able to distinguish between the two. What I can do however is like one more than another, and that's what preference is. But as far as what they represent there are clear guidelines as to what is medieval fantasy and what is high fantasy.
@JJ,
I think you're confusing things. I've explained, cartoonish, classic, plastic are to describe an art style. But as far as design goes, there's another level - medieval fantasy, dark fantasy, high fantasy, low fantasy, etc. I might be wrong, I'm not an expert on the issue, but that's how I distinguish between them.
For example I can have a Catapult that has an cartoonish art style or a more plastic one, just like a photo can be modified to be more black and white, more sepia, more anime, etc. But then the catapult itself can be either a wooden medieval catapult throwing boulders, or a spider legged catapult shooting green plasma. There there isn't a question of art style, because I can equally make them look cartoonish or more "realistic" as you say, but there would still be a clear difference between them. And that would be that one has a medieval design, while the other has a high fantasy design.
That's how I reason it.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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LizardWarrior 
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted February 27, 2015 02:25 PM |
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The Haven un-upgraded creatures look fine, the upgraded ones are just over decorated, a lot of their designs are very impractical (giant shoulderpads are a problem in un-upgraded forms too). Just adding some decorations doesn't feel like they are adding an upgrade. It would have been better if the basic versions were upgrades and they would have made the basic creatures less-armored. Also changing their armor colors from metalic-grey to yellow/bronze-red hue looks more like a downgrade, as steel and iron are more durable than gold and bronze (both which are pretty malleable). But Haven is pretty cool, my favorite faction so far in Heroes VII, the real problem is necropolis...
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 27, 2015 02:28 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 14:32, 27 Feb 2015.
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Sandro400,
For me the atmosphere was in the game itself as well. To me is pretty simple actually:
For any kind of creation, the very first thing you have to come up with is a concept (cf deck card metaphor). Every single thing will then follow from it.
Be it the gameplay, the units designs, the lore and story-telling, the environment, and so on. What I question there, and you know it very well, is the quality of the Ashan concept. I couldn’t disagree more with you saying HV kept the feeling within the atmosphere you described above, which rightly applies to me for H2-H3. Regarding H5, even if all this worked on a mechanic point of view, I am feeling much closer to Verriker’s opinion on the matter:
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H5 is like H3 on drugs lol, proportions are insane, units are overdecorated and messy, downright weird stuff like gargoyles and genies, several designs shamelessly ripped from Warhammer, pink Necropolis alts.. all over the place basically
Yes, where is my Heroes? INSIDE a WH/WoW environment. Some might not see it like this, but for me is obvious.
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Remember, the setting, the art-style, the lore by themselves can't be bad.
I beg your pardon?
Not only I think it is easily provable these things by themselves can be bad, but also that they have a great impact on the gaming experience.
Toning down the designs or hiding them won't save the core concept.
Dave Jame,
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But for a lot of people mechanics are not equal, they are above.
That may be, but it doesn’t mean they are right.
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I have a problem fallowing this sentence and its logic. You were disappointed by something cool that influenced the essence of the faction? So it was bad that they made something cool and gave it some importance? Or Did you had the feeling the faction is rage-centered?
No. I was disappointed by the fact units were visually so influenced by the demon blood, just as HVI-HVII Necro are by the spider cult.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted February 27, 2015 02:44 PM |
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Galaad said:
That may be, but it doesn’t mean they are right.
Galaad, do you actually think this is a proper response to anybody on any topic when you want to look like wise, debate open and debate supporting person? Few pages back you highlighted how people who debate at least somehow contribute to in a meaningful way and then you put this gem? You have a bad day? I something wrong? I’m kind of concerned for you.
Galaad said:
No. I was disappointed by the fact units were visually so influenced by the demon blood, just as HVI-HVII Necro are by the spider cult.
Ehh. care to elaborate? Since this is really starting to sound made up. How does this evoke a demon? In most cases Ashan orcs do not have horns, hooves or other demonic features and atributes, exception being the Cyclops.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 27, 2015 02:53 PM |
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Galaad, do you actually think this is a proper response
Bring a better argument then.
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How does this evoke a demon? In most cases Ashan orcs do not have horns, hooves or other demonic features and atributes, exception being the Cyclops.
  
Though I will concede Stronghold is rather OK (Core tier and Centaur are fine) compared to Necro or what I fear Dungeon and Sylvan to become. But I want to keep optimist on the yet non-revealed factions.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted February 27, 2015 02:54 PM |
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Dave_Jame said:
Galaad, do you actually think this is a proper response to anybody on any topic when you want to look like wise, debate open and debate supporting person? Few pages back you highlighted how people who debate at least somehow contribute to in a meaningful way and then you put this gem? You have a bad day? I something wrong? I’m kind of concerned for you.
Dave_Jame said:
@Verriker: I'm expecting and apology from you based on Avonu's post that followed your. Or just be silent. I'm going to gain my energy from the salt in the wounds of your pride.
lol
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted February 27, 2015 03:07 PM |
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Stevie said:
People can be OK with absurd things and claim preference. That doesn't make it any less absurd. Edward vampire and Giant Dung of Death cyclops examples are what is called "reductio ad absurdum", when people accept what is absurd you can safely disregard their opinion.
Ok then I have something for you. Let's say Ubi will create most perfect vampire and cyclops you can immagine. It's so good looking that you personaly consider it perfect. Let's say it's a Vampire, since it's hot topic. It's just perfectly designed vampire. No useless spikes no nothig. Or maybe ... it's what you would consider ... perfect.
And let's put it in game. Would you be happy? Probably. But, how would you feel, if it's in game but does not do anything. It can not move, it does 0 dmg, it is immune to spells, it costs milion gold per one unit, it has 1 hp ... and just stands there. Useless.
Would you consider this a good game? It looks good, you should probably buy it right?
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted February 27, 2015 03:11 PM |
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Galaad said:
Bring a better argument then.
What is a better argument then the opinion of several people here who expressed that the game mechanics are what carries the spirit of the game and more important then aesthetical features. These people have the same right to have an opinion and you have no right to force your opinion upon them or to decrees the value of theirs. Now pleas start acting like your usual self and not like a smug 12YO. If the opinion of these people is not enought, the poblem is not in them, not in the game, but in you sorry to tell it this way :-(.
And if you really see demonic features in a man, dressed in dead bodies of prox. cats then there is not much to say.
Apart from that we have 1 unit out of 7 an a hand.
A minotaur is more demonic then that
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 27, 2015 03:13 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 15:16, 27 Feb 2015.
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Dave_Jame said:
What is a better argument then the opinion of several people here who expressed that the game mechanics are what carries the spirit of the game and more important then aesthetical features.
I don't want them to express them, I want them to explain them.
Nonetheless, in a way I'm on your side here, as I consider if gameplay fails the game will along.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted February 27, 2015 03:21 PM |
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From a marketing perspective however, graphics are objectively more important than gameplay.
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted February 27, 2015 03:39 PM |
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Dave_Jame said:
What is a better argument then the opinion of several people here who expressed that the game mechanics are what carries the spirit of the game and more important then aesthetical features. These people have the same right to have an opinion and you have no right to force your opinion upon them or to decrees the value of theirs.
True. But, tell the same thing to the people on blog who were disgusted by the spider hegemony everywhere.
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted February 27, 2015 03:43 PM |
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Avirosb said:
From a marketing perspective however, graphics are objectively more important than gameplay.
You mean from a mainstream, dumbed down point of view.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted February 27, 2015 03:45 PM |
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Edited by Avirosb at 15:45, 27 Feb 2015.
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Kayna said:
Avirosb said:
From a marketing perspective however, graphics are objectively more important than gameplay.
You mean from a mainstream, dumbed down point of view.
Exactly, same diff. Gotta dress to impress.
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dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
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posted February 27, 2015 03:55 PM |
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Sleeping_Sun said:
True. But, tell the same thing to the people on blog who were disgusted by the spider hegemony everywhere.
I will be first to admit that factions under UBI's hand are over coherent if that makes sense.
They made sure that we can immediately recognize creature's faction and they overdone it. Color coding and to the degree factional signs depicted in every possible place (armor, townscreen).
But that was introduced in HVI.
At least they are trying to make it right this time. Necro has no more sickening neon green color all over the place and lich and vampire are getting rework.
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
