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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: Swordbearer
Thread: Swordbearer This thread is 19 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 · «PREV / NEXT»
RMZ1989
RMZ1989


Supreme Hero
posted September 05, 2014 09:59 AM

alcibiades said:
Btw. now the talk of the Swordbearer is up again ... I don't remember if this has been discussed before, but something I just recently noticed: They've given him a large (2x2) imprint on battlefield. I mean, here we have a champion creature that is so "ordinary" that his only redeeming feature in terms of combat abilities would seem to be maneuverability through his small size, and then they choose to make him large?!?

People give too much attention to the size of the units, and they are probably doing that just because of the balance.
He looks like a quite big Barbarian to me, and beside Dire Wolf is 2x2 size as core unit, I don't have problem with Swordbearer being 2x2.
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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 05, 2014 10:54 AM

Well, I've been telling about that a while ago but didn't see anyone react. I think it's not that great to have the swordbearer as a 2x2 creature when it would obviously fit a 1x1 size. And that size would probably be a plus in tactical combat where you could pass through narrow places where a 2x2 wouldn't fit, like battlemap objects or creatures. The only pro argument for 2x2 that I can see is a wider area for the Sweep attack. But I think it would be best to have a 1x1 swordbearer even so.

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Warmonger
Warmonger


Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
posted September 05, 2014 10:59 AM

Swordbearers remind me of Paladis / Crusaders from H2:



The thing is, I always imagined paladin with lots of special abilities, protection from dark magic or something. Swordbearer doesn't look like a guy interested in magic or enchancements, he may have attack bonus at most. Which is not very interesting for champion unit.
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Minion
Minion


Legendary Hero
posted September 05, 2014 11:00 AM
Edited by Minion at 11:01, 05 Sep 2014.

I agree that it should be 1x1. Here is how I imagine a 2x2 Hydra to look like compared to a human. ^^ (well slightly exaggerated, but the difference should be noticeable.)


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Storm-Giant
Storm-Giant


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
posted September 05, 2014 01:05 PM
Edited by Storm-Giant at 13:41, 05 Sep 2014.

I mentioned the 1x1 vs 2x2 size earlier, either on this thread or on another. I remember War-Overlord discussed that with me.

Edit: Yup, here on the 2nd page.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted September 05, 2014 02:17 PM

I *think* that the height is a factor when it comes to making a unit large or not. I have the vague recollection that tall units like angels(2.5 meters height) get to be large. Swordbearers are of course shorter than that but still, fairly tall by human standards.
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted September 05, 2014 02:33 PM

Elvin said:
I *think* that the height is a factor when it comes to making a unit large or not. I have the vague recollection that tall units like angels(2.5 meters height) get to be large. Swordbearers are of course shorter than that but still, fairly tall by human standards.

Well in my head, a "large" unit is something that's "significantly larger than a humanoid" ... which is why a large human unit is by default nonsense. But then, that's just how I picture the concept of "large" units.
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LizardWarrior
LizardWarrior


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Age of erwins is over
posted September 05, 2014 03:08 PM

I'm ok with swordbearer as a champion, but the thing I find unfit is that we have 2 large humanoid units as champions. More or less they are the same concept:

Angel: Human+Wings+Sword
Swordbearer: Human+Sword

I don't understand why 2 very similar units are needed. Personally I would put a wyvern as champion as they are omnipresent in medieval heraldry, but Ubisoft made wyverns stronghold material and that thing they call "Ashan lore" is sacred for them

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted September 05, 2014 04:25 PM
Edited by Galaad at 16:29, 05 Sep 2014.

@LW : I don't really see the problem with having two humanoid champions for the human faction.. ? Plus Angels are not really humanoid are they ? Apart from that the two units seems quite different to me :

- Angel : Flyer, Healer
- Berserk : Ground unit, Attacker (probably will get special attack/offense ability) ?

I'm really happy that we get to choose between different champions overall in H7

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 05, 2014 04:29 PM

What's so great about it?

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted September 05, 2014 04:31 PM

Well it adds variety doesn't it ? If it is well made there is an alternate strategy I guess ?

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 05, 2014 04:39 PM

Depends, doesn't it?
If they cost different resources you may well simply build what you can build. If not, one unit may generally be better than the other. A 2x2 Flier with Resurrect might well be better for the whole faction than a 2x2 Walker who does more damage.
Also, as a choice, sure Champion is the flashy one, but more game relevance might have been another Elite. I also don't think that either/or is cool. For a Champion, you will have to make a choice anyway, due to cost, and on longer or richer maps it might have been cool to go for 2 Champs.
So, no, I'm not that happy about it.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted September 05, 2014 05:05 PM
Edited by Galaad at 17:16, 05 Sep 2014.

JollyJoker said:
A 2x2 Flier with Resurrect might well be better for the whole faction than a 2x2 Walker who does more damage.
My guess would be that if Walker does consequent damage and is tricked enough to compensate towards the Angel it should work just fine ?
Meaning Fly/Heal=Ground/Damage ??
Quote:
Also, as a choice, sure Champion is the flashy one, but more game relevance might have been another Elite.
I get you there, but Champion is what we've got heh..Ubisoft has already made worst choices..
Quote:
For a Champion, you will have to make a choice anyway, due to cost, and on longer or richer maps it might have been cool to go for 2 Champs.
Exactly this, why couldn't you go for 2 champs ? Especially on XL or bigger maps you start with Champ A in your "main" castle then at some point you have other castles with Champ B building built or yet to build. I'm really seduced by the idea. I really hope there will be an option to destroy alternate builts though !

Or did I understand you wrong ?

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 05, 2014 05:21 PM

I meant why not have both in the same town? On smaller maps it probably wouldn't make economical sense to go for both, while on bigger rich ones - sure, but why not leave the decision to the player? After all, having more than one town would mean indeed that you might have them both.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted September 05, 2014 05:32 PM
Edited by Galaad at 17:37, 05 Sep 2014.

Ah ok now I get you. I think I'd personally be happier being forced to have to conquer another town to get both champs, but I like your point and indeed, leaving this particular choice to player should be doable if devs are willing to !

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Minion
Minion


Legendary Hero
posted September 05, 2014 06:20 PM

My biggest concern in alternate Champions is indeed what JJ said that when another costs 20 Sulfur and other 20 Crystals you will build the one you happen to have resources for. There is no strategy in choosing what to build. But this can easily be changed by making both dwellings cost the same, so there is an easy fix.

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted September 05, 2014 06:34 PM

Actually making them cost the same resource will also make sense both in terms of balancing towards other buildings in town and in terms of general "faction-resource link" (for instance, remember how in H3 Tower was associated with Gems and had this resource from their resource silo, Rampart was Crystal, etc.).

My main objective to it myself is that I think it'll turn out to be a defacto choice in the sense that it'll be likely for each player to always resort to the same choice. This is likely to happen for two reasons. First, there's the balance issue: If units are not very carefully balanced, one unit will be favored over the other. Second, there's the habit issue: Once you've gotten used to one unit, you'll be likely to build your strategy around that unit, and you'll be less inclined to choose another unit.

As such, alternate champions imo. falls in the category of wasted developer work where I will also put bosses and neutrals because these are game features that will only rarely come in play for the human and thus has comparatively little impact on game experience. Basically, the resources that are put into making these 6 extra champions could have been put into making 6 out of the 7 creatures required for another faction, and while I know that an extra faction also needs other things than just the creatures, this is still not resources well spent from my pov.
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Steyn
Steyn


Supreme Hero
posted September 05, 2014 06:44 PM

With different resource cost there will be less of a de facto choice of champion, because it will also be map dependent. This increases replayability, so i would say it's good. It also provides a tactical aspect: will you choose to make the champion you like less, or will you wait till you have the resources for the better champion. I liked this aspect of heroes IV very much, if only it would've had another tier

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted September 05, 2014 06:53 PM
Edited by Galaad at 18:57, 05 Sep 2014.

alcibiades said:
Actually making them cost the same resource will also make sense both in terms of balancing towards other buildings in town and in terms of general "faction-resource link" (for instance, remember how in H3 Tower was associated with Gems and had this resource from their resource silo, Rampart was Crystal, etc.).
Needing same ingredients for completely different units seems a little odd ? Alternate resource silos too makes sense to me.. Plus I never got the whining about resources at any point anywhere as it is part of the game, and if you manage it successfully you know very well that you have plenty of them, you don't even need to flag mines that much in mid-late game..
alcibiades said:
My main objective to it myself is that I think it'll turn out to be a defacto choice in the sense that it'll be likely for each player to always resort to the same choice. This is likely to happen for two reasons. First, there's the balance issue: If units are not very carefully balanced, one unit will be favored over the other. Second, there's the habit issue: Once you've gotten used to one unit, you'll be likely to build your strategy around that unit, and you'll be less inclined to choose another unit.
IF units will be well balanced, I strongly disagree, at least with your second issue. I for instance will enjoy getting to choose Champ B after the time I mastered the Champ A strategy, I really see this option as good for replayability if it is well implemented. Plus having them both as discussed with JJ sounds nice to me.

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted September 05, 2014 08:31 PM

Galaad said:
IF units will be well balanced, I strongly disagree, at least with your second issue. I for instance will enjoy getting to choose Champ B after the time I mastered the Champ A strategy, I really see this option as good for replayability if it is well implemented. Plus having them both as discussed with JJ sounds nice to me.

Ideal case that is true. Question is if it'll come through like that in reality. Thinking back to H4, there were obviously some no-brainer choices (remember the Reasons to chose the Ogre Mage, ha ha?), but even some of the cases where no particular obvious better choice was available (Titan/Dragon Golem, Devil/Bone Dragon, Fairy Dragon/Phoenix, to name a few I think were fairly evenly pitched), I still found myself going with the same choice almost all the time.
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