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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: Swordbearer
Thread: Swordbearer This thread is 19 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 · «PREV / NEXT»
alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted August 23, 2014 11:11 AM

Sleeping_Sun said:
What about Tarasque?

Isn't the Behemoth sort of supposed to be the Tarasque, based on the D&D interpretation of same creature?

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Sleeping_Sun
Sleeping_Sun


Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
posted August 23, 2014 11:14 AM
Edited by Sleeping_Sun at 11:22, 23 Aug 2014.

alcibiades said:
Sleeping_Sun said:
What about Tarasque?

Isn't the Behemoth sort of supposed to be the Tarasque, based on the D&D interpretation of same creature?
Maybe, I don't know. But the Tarasque of Heroes could be a mix between a turtle and a dragon (see the pictures I posted on a previous page), that way we would avoid copying D&D unit. In addition Heroes also has its own Behemoth, so we would have 2 different units, unlike in D&D.

EDIT: The tarrasque is a gigantic lizard-like creature which exists only to eat, kill, and destroy. In most campaign settings, only one tarrasque is said to exist on each world. The tarrasque has a low intelligence and cannot speak. It is neutrally aligned, for despite its violent and savage nature, it lacks the mental capacity to choose between good and evil.
The tarrasque was introduced to the D&D game in the first edition of Advanced Dungeons & Dragons. It is based upon the French legend of the tarasque.

Info found here.

HOMM Tarasque: Turtle + Dragon
D&D Tarrasque: Lizard
Thus, I believe that we could create a totally different unit from the one seen in D&D both in lore and look.
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alcibiades
alcibiades


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of Gold Dragons
posted August 23, 2014 11:22 AM

It ... doesn't really fit in Haven imo.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted August 23, 2014 12:18 PM

Depends ... they would have to come up with a Lizard or Turtle Duchy for it, though, which I strongly doubt.

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Neraus
Neraus


Promising
Legendary Hero
Pizza Nazi
posted August 23, 2014 12:23 PM

Why all this hate on the swordbearer, what unit fits more on a GoT game... oh wait, wrong place.

But I don't care that much, give him a bucket helmet and I'm happy.
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VOKIALBG
VOKIALBG


Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
posted August 23, 2014 12:38 PM

Neraus said:
Why all this hate on the swordbearer, what unit fits more on a GoT game... oh wait, wrong place.

But I don't care that much, give him a bucket helmet and I'm happy.


He looks well and cool and everything, but not like a champion. More an elite imo.

They can just switch him with the paladin imo and we are ready.

Bucket helmet will be great
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Storm-Giant
Storm-Giant


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
posted August 23, 2014 12:45 PM

alcibiades said:
Maybe the solution would be to change the Angels into some other wingless celestial creature (Archon? There was some other form mentioned in a thread at some time but I have forgotten their name) - if the choice was between a non-flying fragile resurrecting creature vs. an awesomely powerful flying a creature, perhaps the choice would be less clear-cut?

A wingless celestial creature sounds great to me, it's a nice twist to the angel which has ben overused since H3...
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Sleeping_Sun
Sleeping_Sun


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Townscreen Architect
posted August 23, 2014 01:07 PM

JollyJoker said:
Depends ... they would have to come up with a Lizard or Turtle Duchy for it, though, which I strongly doubt.
They don't need to come up with a new duchy. Events from H6 can provide a fine background. Didn't Nagas invade Wolf Duchy? This can be explanation how the creature got to the Haven's land. After battling it for several centuries (H7 comes before H5, and both games have already established creature line up) the priest or an individual hero (e.g. Martha) could sway the beast to the Haven's side. Thus making it perfectly viable for H8 (if that ever comes anyway...) where hopefully they will continue the Dark Messiah storyline.
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Stevie
Stevie


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Undefeatable Hero
posted August 23, 2014 01:50 PM
Edited by Stevie at 13:54, 23 Aug 2014.

This holiness theme of Haven put the faction in a corner from which it cannot escape. You literally can't have creatures that are not holy or majestic because it feels odd. You can't have a beast near an angel, it's simply insane now that I think about it. Even the wolf, the only thing that enables a wolf to be near an angel is the human between them. They are the only bridge between such creatures. I'm even looking in DoC right now, and the only creatures that compose Haven are either humans or angels.

So Haven lineup is simply doomed because of the theme it has. You cannot have savage Wolf Dutchy creatures within a Holy Empire theme. It's contradictory.

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted August 23, 2014 02:20 PM

Stevie said:
So Haven lineup is simply doomed because of the theme it has. You cannot have savage Wolf Dutchy creatures within a Holy Empire theme. It's contradictory.

Yes, I agree that turning Haven savage while still retaining the angelic theme is something of a contradiction. It would need to be either/or. When that's said, there are a number of creatures that could go into angelic Haven without problems imo. such as:
- Griffins (duh)
- Valkyries (although imo. better in norse Fortress)
- Winged Lions (like this)
- Non-beastly animals, like hounds and horses.

But while any of the three former mentioned here could potentially be champions, that would imo. only worked with a wingless celestial as the alternative.

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RMZ1989
RMZ1989


Supreme Hero
posted August 23, 2014 02:27 PM

Stevie said:
This holiness theme of Haven put the faction in a corner from which it cannot escape. You literally can't have creatures that are not holy or majestic because it feels odd. You can't have a beast near an angel, it's simply insane now that I think about it. Even the wolf, the only thing that enables a wolf to be near an angel is the human between them. They are the only bridge between such creatures. I'm even looking in DoC right now, and the only creatures that compose Haven are either humans or angels.

So Haven lineup is simply doomed because of the theme it has. You cannot have savage Wolf Dutchy creatures within a Holy Empire theme. It's contradictory.

AND GLORIES! TADAAAH!

Now you see what I've meant when you proposed Werewolf as one of their champions.

The only non-human unit that I can think of is some sort of huge War Machine, but since we already have those as warfare units I don't see them doing anything like that in Heroes 7.
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Storm-Giant
Storm-Giant


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
posted August 23, 2014 02:34 PM
Edited by Storm-Giant at 14:35, 23 Aug 2014.

alcibiades said:
Stevie said:
So Haven lineup is simply doomed because of the theme it has. You cannot have savage Wolf Dutchy creatures within a Holy Empire theme. It's contradictory.

Yes, I agree that turning Haven savage while still retaining the angelic theme is something of a contradiction.

I for one would love to see more 'contradictions' like this one in future M&M games

Although I like to see this savage theme as another interpretation of the Haven Empire, instead of the holy theme we've seen so many times. That way it doesn't feel like a contradiction...
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alcibiades
alcibiades


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of Gold Dragons
posted August 23, 2014 02:58 PM

I wouldn't mind a savage Haven ... although I guess I wouldn't call it Haven then, but rather something else (Free Cities?) ... but then it would be without angels.

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Elvin
Elvin


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What if Elvin was female?
posted August 23, 2014 03:02 PM

alcibiades said:
Yes, I agree that turning Haven savage while still retaining the angelic theme is something of a contradiction.

Not particularly, H5 renegade angels stood for retribution. What I don't get is why would anyone want monsters in haven. If you want savage and monstrous you have stronghold..
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Sleeping_Sun
Sleeping_Sun


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posted August 23, 2014 03:23 PM
Edited by Sleeping_Sun at 15:28, 23 Aug 2014.

Elvin said:
alcibiades said:
Yes, I agree that turning Haven savage while still retaining the angelic theme is something of a contradiction.

Not particularly, H5 renegade angels stood for retribution. What I don't get is why would anyone want monsters in haven. If you want savage and monstrous you have stronghold..

People are sick of purely human faction, generic names (pikeman and the rest of the package), and I am a bit tired of Griffins and Angels... And what to add if not a mythical creature/monster? It doesn't have to be something horrible to behold...
EDIT: an artist can change, reshape and adopt unit (creature/monster) into the faction in order to fit it with the rest of the lineup.

People are discussing on this thread: we don't like what we have, we want change, we don't like change, we don't want to change, we can't change, we don't like what we already have... we are going nowhere with this attitude...

Essentially we should just shut up and play the game with whatever units game developers come up...
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alcibiades
alcibiades


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Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted August 23, 2014 04:04 PM

Sleeping_Sun said:
People are discussing on this thread: we don't like what we have, we want change, we don't like change, we don't want to change, we can't change, we don't like what we already have... we are going nowhere with this attitude...

Essentially we should just shut up and play the game with whatever units game developers come up...

I hear what you are saying, but personally I like the discussion, not so much because I think it will have impact on the actual game, but because it's interesting to see what ideas people can bring to the table, and sometimes, in the end what comes out of it is more than what each of us individually brought in.

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Brukernavn
Brukernavn

Hero of Order
posted August 23, 2014 04:48 PM
Edited by Brukernavn at 16:50, 23 Aug 2014.

There are a bunch of holy creatures that could be used in the haven lineup, also as champions.

For instance from Revelation 4:6-8
Quote:
Also in front of the throne there was what looked like a sea of glass, clear as crystal.
In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in back. The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle. Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying:
“‘Holy, holy, holy
is the Lord God Almighty,
who was, and is, and is to come.”

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alcibiades
alcibiades


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of Gold Dragons
posted August 23, 2014 04:51 PM

Funny, I just came across this image earlier today:


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alex_yakub
alex_yakub


Famous Hero
posted August 23, 2014 04:54 PM

Six-winged lion would be interesting

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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Undefeatable Hero
posted August 23, 2014 05:03 PM

Elvin, it's not so much about wanting monsters, but wanting CHAMPIONS (which justifies the question, whether doubling the number of Champion creatures is such a clever move). REAL Champions.

Now if you look at HoMM 2 - no Problem. Best creature Haven: 65 HPs, Titan: 300, Black Dragon: 300, Phoenix: 100, Ghost Dragon: 150, Cyclops: 80. Very different, very differently balanced.

HoMM 3 changed things, making everything a lot more alike, Champions ranging frpm 200 - 300 points, and that has been the system since then. Cavalry has been the best human unit, and Angel was a good one on top of that.

Priest had 80 HPs in HoMM 5, if I'm not wrong, which was the best human foot ever, in terms of HPs.
With that in mind, and knowing that we have Angels and Titans and a Magic BIRD and the Swordbearer as Champions:

What would you say, how many HPs should those 4 have?

Here's my math:

I start with giving Titan 300 HPs. It's a construct, it's big, and there should be maneuvering space for HPs. I would allow 200 HPs for the magic Bird. He could have LESS, but not much, giving him some aura, that would maybe halve physical damage.
Giving an Angel 250 HPs wouldn't sound so bad.
Now for the swordbearer.
Since Angels are the children of Elrath, even the upgraded Swordbearer CANNOT have as many HPs as the basic Angel - that would make no sense whatsoever.
If you factor in a massive armour for good HPs, the guy would crawl over the battlefield
except, of course, they invented power armor and genetic enhancement in the seven cities and the Wolf Duchy stole the blueprints, and the Swordbearers are Ashan Marines, Order of Elrath's Fists, or some such.
But keeping him AGILE, armour can only be light, and 120 HPs was conceivable. Maybe even 130. 150, however, was a stretch already, and 150 HPs would not be great, especially when considering that it must be a VERY mundane unit.
You would also have to consider, that if the flat growth bonus of HoMM 6 was used, even if a production of 1 Angel and 2 Swordbearers looked fine, 3 vs. 4 looked bad. 3 vs. 1 on the other hand cries ELITE all over the place.
Can he make up in other stats? Against ELRATH'S CHILDREN? Nah.
So, there is no other way to balance that EXCEPT via numbers, and that doesn't compute - elite stats with elite growth = ELITE.

Any other take on it?

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