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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: Swordbearer
Thread: Swordbearer This thread is 19 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 · «PREV / NEXT»
JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 23, 2014 09:51 PM

Stevie said:
JollyJoker said:
Well, why is it contradictory? In the Wolf Duchy the Holy Church simply hasn't that much power, and it makes sense that the Church and the Angels generally lost a lot of credibility after the events in HoMM 6.


The themes are contradictory! You have a Holy Empire defined by ideals of holiness and bright'n'shiny whereas the Wolf Dutchy is defined by brutality. Hence the inability to fit a real champion other than that swordbearer into the faction. For example you can't see a huge werewolf because that doesn't look good near an angel.

Were-beings are not - yet - defined in Ashan. The question would be what their story was.
The only prerequisite is, they can't have any Dark Magic connection.

But that's not the problem - a Werewolf would be no Champion for the same reason the Swordbearer isn't - or the Vampire. It's simply not good enough.

And at the end of the day, the Swordbearer is a HUMAN. Not a space marine.

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Dwarfurious
Dwarfurious


Adventuring Hero
posted August 23, 2014 10:05 PM

A human with a lifetime of experience and magical armor/sword. But seriously why does he have to be "Good enough" ? He doesnt have to be as strong, he can be cheaper more numerous like Heroes 2. This is DIVERSITY, its good ! Think of it like having an extra slot for more elites instead of a champion. And its still a players choice.

Reminds me a lot of Warlords Battlecry, and how each faction had a Champion unit, and some of these guys were wrecking balls, and others were just... supportive, and for Barbarian their Champion was just a really good infantry they could spam and field en mass while other champions could take several minutes to train.

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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 23, 2014 10:33 PM
Edited by Stevie at 22:34, 23 Aug 2014.

Interesting how you think it's not good enough, even though even you point that they're not established in Ashan - which is obviously a PLUS. It's by FAR the best, if not even the only option as a BEAST that you could have as a champion for a WOLF themed faction. You probably immediately thought of that Harry Potter skinny excuse of a werewolf whereas I think it can even have the size of a Cyclops.

Whatever, your idea of Heroes clearly doesn't intersect with mine. You'd rather have another oversize humanoid as the 6th creature in Haven, even tho you know it'll be the first things fans would bash on.


You know what, snow it, leave the swordbearer. I don't even care anymore.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 23, 2014 11:26 PM

Dude, the Swordbearer will stay, no matter what.
It's not like we could find an alternative or something. Whether you or me or anyone else likes or dislikes the guy - or any other, for that matter - won't change snow, so come down already.
For me the guy doesn't deliver.
On the other hand I never was a Haven/Knight fan.

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Dwarfurious
Dwarfurious


Adventuring Hero
posted August 24, 2014 12:55 AM
Edited by Dwarfurious at 01:05, 24 Aug 2014.

It hurts me that a unit could be completely unique in Role, but will be hated as "boring" by aesthetic. Why HoMM fans so damn vain ?

Maybe its just because im a Dwarf and we value substance more.

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JeremiahEmo
JeremiahEmo


Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
posted August 24, 2014 05:36 AM

Stevie said:
Interesting how you think it's not good enough, even though even you point that they're not established in Ashan - which is obviously a PLUS. It's by FAR the best, if not even the only option as a BEAST that you could have as a champion for a WOLF themed faction. You probably immediately thought of that Harry Potter skinny excuse of a werewolf whereas I think it can even have the size of a Cyclops.

Whatever, your idea of Heroes clearly doesn't intersect with mine. You'd rather have another oversize humanoid as the 6th creature in Haven, even tho you know it'll be the first things fans would bash on.


You know what, snow it, leave the swordbearer. I don't even care anymore.


+1 to this.
Swordbearers are good enough for me. They are big badass brute, sword-slaying men who has enough experience and fighting skill.
They are unique and fresh and should stay where they are in the lineup.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 24, 2014 08:39 AM

Dwarfurious said:
It hurts me that a unit could be completely unique in Role, but will be hated as "boring" by aesthetic. Why HoMM fans so damn vain ?

Maybe its just because im a Dwarf and we value substance more.
How often will I have to repeat, that the unit is fine - as an Elite.

What it lacks is the Champion feel. He's a strong and trained human, SO WHAT? Would that mean, the Dark Elves might get a Ninja as Champion? The Dwarves Gotrek Gurnisson? Since when is Big Human with a Sword a legendary monster - which is STILL, what this game is about.

Keep in mind that HoMM 2 is a radically different game with a radically different kind of balance that works over economics. I wouldn't mind a return to that, and 7 army slots and 8 buildable creatures were fine, with cheaper and more expensive towns, but that won't happen.

I realize, though, that it may work under one condition: simply, if every town gets a not so good and cheaper champion and a really good and expensive Champion.
With Academy, it might also be possible.
That in turn means, to work, it shouldn't be an either/or build, but you should be able to build all 8 dwellings, which in turn would give you a lot of interesting building options. I suppose, the most common way to go, would be to build the weaker Champion before the last Elite, and see whether you can go for the 2nd Champion or whether you should do with the last Elite.

Should they do it that way, fine and ok.

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JeremiahEmo
JeremiahEmo


Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
posted August 24, 2014 08:47 AM

^ that's the debate with swordbearers: Basically, what your personal definition of champion is.

I have an open definition of champion, so I guess that's why I'm not bothered by it. I am all for voting for the Swordbearers to stay where they are. They are unique and fresh compared to your average in-your-face powerful creatures.

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dwarfurious
dwarfurious


Adventuring Hero
posted August 24, 2014 08:48 AM

Would it make you feel better if i said his sword and armor were magical ? Besides, is not fantasy and mythology full of such heroes slaying dragons and demons and such ? This human, filling that Champion role, 'is' that fantasy. He is a Hero ! That would be a better name, Hero.

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JeremiahEmo
JeremiahEmo


Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
posted August 24, 2014 09:18 AM
Edited by JeremiahEmo at 09:19, 24 Aug 2014.

Trying to convince someone who has a preconceived definition of champion? Good luck buddy.

I get the logic behind swordbearers being champions.
See those guys who can beat big bad creatures all by themselves?
Hercules beat a hydra, ladon and so many more
There are a couple more superhumans who can beat dragons all by themselves.
Goliath is not known an elite but a champion.
Achilles..
Samson

and so on..

Plus their look and feel is really spot on with the Wolf Duchy. They are sort of a barbaric haven faction.

That's the logic behind swordbearers. They are badass superhuman fighting machines. What swordbearers need is a better name. Just a better name, that is all.


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Dwarfurious
Dwarfurious


Adventuring Hero
posted August 24, 2014 09:45 AM
Edited by Dwarfurious at 09:45, 24 Aug 2014.

Fenris Knights?

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 24, 2014 10:31 AM

I would agree with you in terms of THE HERO, but that role is filled. I don't believe in hero mass-production.

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Wellplay
Wellplay


Famous Hero
Poland Stronk
posted August 24, 2014 10:34 AM

Wolf Knight/Wolf Champion?

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yasmiel
yasmiel


Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
posted August 24, 2014 12:49 PM

I must admit I'm with JJ on this.
The unit, while great, doesn't fit the champion slot for me.

In comparison with other sword-bearing creatures, this guy will be worth 3-5 elite rakshasas or 10-12 bladedancers (approximation on both ends since we don't know the numbers)- and i simply don't see a brute armored guy being able to do so in battle.

Anyhow, we will wait and see how it plays out. If it has higher pop growth then it will actually be an elite that is merely occupying champion slot as far as buildings go
____________

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JeremiahEmo
JeremiahEmo


Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
posted August 24, 2014 12:54 PM

Hmm.. let me list good possible names I can think of:
1. Paladin
2. Crusader - nah, does not fit. But it's worth mentioning
3. Legionaire - does not fit either. This name is too civilized. Again, worth mentioning.
4. Praetorian
5. Hastati
6. Brute Warrior
7. Immortal - Persian infantry. Would be a cool name though
8. Thug - another cool name in my opinion
9. Giant
10. Goliath - too big for this creature, eh? What do you think?

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flonembourg
flonembourg


Known Hero
posted August 24, 2014 01:23 PM

Wellplay said:
Wolf Knight/Wolf Champion?


Better than swordbearer and cool!

I like also the Fenris Knight or fenrir very good too!

May be this human could metamorphose in wolf like fate spinner in HVI.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 24, 2014 01:46 PM

I have an idea - but that might open a can of worms.

How about

Sword TWINS?

The unit would consist of TWO of those guys, fighting somehat symbiotically, having a special wolf pack link with each other, being together since their birth or somesuch, allowing them to fight like one 4-armed guy with two bodies.
Obviously, this would come with immediate advantages, that could be put to good use, but in any event, since it were TWINS, you could give them souble the stats.

So, say, a 120 HPs DOUBLED, double strike DOUBLED, and wllowing to keep one in reserve - the guy might take two half-turns with full m ovement allowance. Or, should we also get the new "flanking" stuff that is in HO and AoW, that guys couldn't be flanked.

Might spawn more "twins" in the future - but FIRST TIME is always the good thing.

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blob2
blob2


Legendary Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
posted August 24, 2014 01:53 PM
Edited by blob2 at 13:56, 24 Aug 2014.

And I would like a Light Dragon unit champion.

So what? I'm never gonna get one *sob*

@Jolly Joker

You mean, like this guy (guys?)?


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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted August 24, 2014 02:09 PM

That's an awesome idea That would look sweet in action though it's probably a bit too late for that. Also it would probably not be easy to do such a unit justice.
____________
DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 24, 2014 02:16 PM

blob2 said:
And I would like a Light Dragon unit champion.

So what? I'm never gonna get one *sob*

@Jolly Joker

You mean, like this guy (guys?)?




EXACTLY!

@ Elvin

You see, that's why I hate this 3d-model crap with aspirations of "realism".

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