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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted April 04, 2015 09:29 PM |
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For overdesigned stuff you have Olivier Ledroit (?) to blame. The Ashanverse is based is his drawings and well...
https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/35553/olivierledroit3.jpg
his style is very rococo
https://www.google.co.ve/search?q=olivier+ledroit&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=hj0gVYbyHsvXsAXol4CgBg&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1366&bih=634
In a funny twist the overdesigned-ness you complain is an attempt to translate the fantasy of his paintings to the game
verriker said:
GenyaArikado said:
holy shiza the hypocrisy
no hypocrisy from me, I've never asked for anyone to be banned because of their opinion, unlike some lol
i dont want you banned for your opinion, i want you banned for derailing every thread into an Ashan sucks wankfest
Nuriel said:
@GenyaArikado
Isn't it a good thing?  Ripping from MM8 could count as paying homage to the legacy games
yes, im supporting you lol
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Sligneris
Supreme Hero
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posted April 04, 2015 09:36 PM |
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Galaad said:
I already kindly asked you no more than a few pages back not to mention my name in your posts anymore, and if you think my position is invalid, please bring up some proper argumentation.
Besides, personal attacks again?
I didn't mean to make a personal attacks although I do admit it's annoying, when it seems like many points that are brought up are pretty much ignored...  At least, I feel this way.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted April 04, 2015 09:41 PM |
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LizardWarrior said:
Green=Blight/Plague. Blight is a major motif for the forsaken
Do you know who invented the connotattion of green with sickness, disease and poison? It wasn't Blizzard or Erwan. It was the 19th century, since green pigment was often highly toxic. And it was associated with sickness because nautious people get a green tinge. If you want to blame green for being associated with sickness and poison, blame 19th century Europe.
LizardWarrior said:
Plus let's not forget that they used purple quite frequently in the h7 necropolis which you said yourself it was major color for both scourge and forsaken.
Purple is also a major colour for Dungeon. But it's not nearly as present as in Dungeon. Face it, Purple is the colour of Shadow Magic in Ashan, everything associated with darkness will get purple. And again, that is because of cultural connotations. Like shadows, purple is the colour of ambiguity and ambivalence. And of mourning, because in olden times people in mourning eventually replaced black with purple.
If you want a Necropolis dissasociated with death, disease and mourning....
LizardWarrior said:
Also the Scourge has the spiky Babylonian-Sumerian architecture which is nearly identical with the h6-h7 necropolis architecture, the same tiered buildings.
Is your problem that Ashan does it right and actually makes it look halfway Levantine? Because Warcaft realy does not try to make it look all that Levantine.
Or would you rather have Necropolis look Gothic and Frankensteiny? Guess what that looks like? New Forsaken Architecture anyone?
LizardWarrior said:
And weren't the forsaken initially good? Well, until Cataclysm
No, they were only not as Alchemically advanced. Many Vanilla Forsaken quests has you helping Apothecaries research and refine the Blight, slaughter the remaining Humans of Loraderon and fail to raise them as stable undead or reverse-engineer Scourge-tech.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted April 04, 2015 09:48 PM |
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I guess that Warhammer, Guild Wars, Heroes 6 and Might and Magic 8 were ripping off Warcraft since all of those feature necromancers related to green. Association with poison and disease War Overlord? Impossible, it has to be copying WC. Same applies with associating Necromancers with the Death obssesed egyptians.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted April 04, 2015 09:49 PM |
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Edited by verriker at 21:52, 04 Apr 2015.
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JotunLogi said:
Archibald was more like warlock and necromancer is rather named (really, he generally ruled everything what was evil- without info that he is necromancer there was no evidence cause he was not focused on necromancy, eternal life or so- just on pure power), besides he saved the world for his own reasons and selfish aim
well, we do know for a fact he was a necromancer (also a warlock), and respectfully, I'm not going to remind you in which game this is revealed because it's like the first thing we are told and thus you would know if you had played it lol
JotunLogi said:
Gauldoth was some cheap philosopher, that was fed up with everything, saw everything and thought that he knows everything and ultimately did not care about everything nad wanted.. well, hard to say what he wanted, never sounded very touched by anything
looks like a matter of taste, I and many others have expressed we think that campaign has Planescape-tier writing whereas "Asha uses all" is what I really call penny dreadful level philosophy
his ultimate goals are spelled out to you pretty early on, btw lol
Sligneris said:
Isn't that how they're treated in Ashan, too? From the perspective of nearly all living humans, elves, dwarves and nagas, they are exactly what you describe - evil abominations, pariahs, heretics, blasphemers who twist Asha's image.
I guess it may be, but I rarely get that sense of nefariousness in the Ashan games I've played, because any other evils in the world are eclipsed by the real one dimensional villains of Ashan, the demons, so the necromancers never really face justice any more for, you know, killing people and harvesting their bodies lol
with Arantir getting buddy buddy with the Orcs to save the planet, Fiona and Anastasya being pretty much purity incarnate, Sveltana coming and going in the empire, even Sandro himself acting pretty chaste, it's just not as interesting to me the way they portray it - Markal is the exception, because even despite the ridiculous plot of him convincing the Empire to invade their allies with the flimsiest rationale imaginable, I did at least have fun with him unashamedly raising the dead and later giving him his comeuppance with Zehir lol
there was a mission in Heroes 2 people loved back in the day called "Rebellion" where you command a death knight and brutally murder thousands of peasants in service of your king; it was criminal, morally reprehensible, and you were both horrified and thrilled as a player to find you enjoyed accumulating all that power
some of us just kind of regret the lack of scenarios in Ashan portraying necromancy as the horrible practice that it logically is, slavery of the dead, instead of always portraying it as a beneficent, justifiable religion lol
Sligneris said:
(a.k.a. Erwan not going out of his way to reach out to people from across the Atlantic)
and yet it's a very convenient excuse given how Fabrice didn't mind reaching out there at all to hire on Rob and Paul, or how his successors had no problem going even further afield to bring in Virtuous lol
again, since he didn't even try, I'm pretty sure Erwin just wanted to be the dungeon master and seized the opportunity while he could lol
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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 04, 2015 09:55 PM |
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War-overlord said:
LizardWarrior said:
Green=Blight/Plague. Blight is a major motif for the forsaken
Do you know who invented the connotattion of green with sickness, disease and poison? It wasn't Blizzard or Erwan. It was the 19th century, since green pigment was often highly toxic. And it was associated with sickness because nautious people get a green tinge. If you want to blame green for being associated with sickness and poison, blame 19th century Europe.
Just my two cents here, but:
Wikipedia Article on the Four Horsemen said:
The color of Death's horse is written as khloros in the original Koine Greek, which can mean either green/greenish-yellow or pale/pallid. The color is often translated as "pale", though "ashen", "pale green", and "yellowish green" are other possible interpretations (the Greek word is the root of "chlorophyll" and "chlorine"). Based on uses of the word in ancient Greek medical literature, several scholars suggest that the color reflects the sickly pallor of a corpse. In some modern artistic depictions, the horse is distinctly green.
Death himself had a horse that was a pale green. It may not have been vibrant, but greenness has been tied to Death for a very long time.
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted April 04, 2015 09:55 PM |
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It takes quite the level of mental gymnastics to be able to call something cliche and then complain about it not doing cliche stuff.
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted April 04, 2015 10:07 PM |
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War-overlord said:
Do you know who invented the connotattion of green with sickness, disease and poison? It wasn't Blizzard or Erwan. It was the 19th century, since green pigment was often highly toxic. And it was associated with sickness because nautious people get a green tinge. If you want to blame green for being associated with sickness and poison, blame 19th century Europe.
Protolisk said:
Wikipedia Article on the Four Horsemen said:
The color of Death's horse is written as khloros in the original Koine Greek, which can mean either green/greenish-yellow or pale/pallid. The color is often translated as "pale", though "ashen", "pale green", and "yellowish green" are other possible interpretations (the Greek word is the root of "chlorophyll" and "chlorine"). Based on uses of the word in ancient Greek medical literature, several scholars suggest that the color reflects the sickly pallor of a corpse. In some modern artistic depictions, the horse is distinctly green.
You're both wrong. Green comes from Paris Green and I stated it several times 
@Proto: besides yellow(!)-green it also means "pale", you know... the paleness of dead things? Because the blood is no longer circulating?
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Sligneris
Supreme Hero
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posted April 04, 2015 10:08 PM |
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verriker said:
I guess it may be, but I rarely get that sense of nefariousness in the Ashan games I've played, because any other evils in the world are eclipsed by the real one dimensional villains of Ashan, the demons, so the necromancers never really face justice any more for, you know, killing people and harvesting their bodies lol
(...)
some of us just kind of regret the lack of scenarios in Ashan portraying necromancy as the horrible practice that it logically is, slavery of the dead, instead of always portraying it as a beneficent, justifiable religion lol
That is where I agree - there should be more emphasis on that. It's a fact that other factions condemn them in the lore, but Heroes V's expansions and Heroes VI failed to show that. Terribly disappointing, and I only hope that the disappearance of Mother Namtaru and the loss of Belketh will allow things to get more out of hand.
verriker said:
with Arantir getting buddy buddy with the Orcs to save the planet, Fiona and Anastasya being pretty much purity incarnate, Sveltana coming and going in the empire, even Sandro himself acting pretty chaste, it's just not as interesting to me the way they portray it - Markal is the exception, because even despite the ridiculous plot of him convincing the Empire to invade their allies with the flimsiest rationale imaginable, I did at least have fun with him unashamedly raising the dead and later giving him his comeuppance with Zehir lol
Arantir was at his best in Dark Messiah, a mass-murderer, a well-intentioned extremist with "the end justifies the means" approach. He had this cold, charismatic attitude, but he was dedicated to his goals and ideals. ToE did not do him justice at all, just made him say "Asha uses all" a lot, fight demons and reference Dark Messiah. Pathetic, really.
Sveltana was also problematic - don't get me wrong, I understood her, as it's only natural that she'd look out for her own family, but what I didn't understand, is why everyone was fine with it - she's a necromancer, not even alive! How come Church of the Light did not intervene?
I like Fiona though, even if I do find it strange that the future empress of the Holy Empire practices Necromancy - I can only assume that once she returned, she'd secretly raise a skeleton or two, but little besides that. I can actually picture her being strongly opposed to the practices of binding spirits to one's will, like Ghosts and Ghouls.
verriker said:
there was a mission in Heroes 2 5 people loved back in the day called "Rebellion" where you command a death knight and brutally murder thousands of peasants in service of your king; it was criminal, morally reprehensible, and you were both horrified and thrilled as a player to find you enjoyed accumulating all that power
Only two small corrections, and we've got Isabel. 
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted April 04, 2015 10:10 PM |
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Edited by verriker at 22:13, 04 Apr 2015.
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GenyaArikado said:
It takes quite the level of mental gymnastics to be able to call something cliche and then complain about it not doing cliche stuff.
if you're talking about me, I don't think I've ever said the Ashan Necropolis is cliched,
see this post if you want to know my actual opinion instead of handing me a "here's one I made earlier" canned one lol
@Sligneris: at last I think we reach a mutual understanding there, I have nothing to argue with in that post at all lol 
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted April 04, 2015 10:15 PM |
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NWC's Heroes of Might and Magic does not exist anymore. What exists is Ubi's Might and Magic: Heroes.
If noone would buy the games, the franchise would die. No more Erwan. The Ubi games were CLEARLY NOT made for old fans. They are made for 10-15 year old kids (just as WE WERE when H3 was new). It has rating: "T fo Teen" So if 15 year olds like Ashan, and 30 year olds dosent ... that's normal lol. This is made for childeren.
@Galaad: The reason why people are talking back at the old fans who complain may be simple. I know it is for me. And that is - I don't get it. Yes everyone has a right to complain etc. BUT. I know you don't like Ashan, it has been said 1000 times lol. You have also been heard by Erwan himself no less. You have said it, they have heard you. They just don't care. That's right. Erwan. Does. Not. Care. In interview he said: "If you like it, good, if you don't ... deal with it" (more or less).
And that's it. If you don't like this game made for childeren, why play it and waste time? Why not just say ... "Ashan sucks, I'm done." Why give money to Ubisoft? So the next time they will say ... "look, we're not bad, a lot of old fans have bought the game..." or "it has sold xy copies, it was a success..."
I know that if I don't like the game, I don't play it. Why would I? Spend money and time for something that I don't like? Look, I have H3 and can play it anytime I want. It's a better game, so it's time better spent. Borow game from a friend or rent it, if you want to see how it looks.
Or do as I will do, and wait untill it costs like 10$ on Steam in 2 years If you purchase it then, you can be guaranteed more content, less bugs, better balance and for cheaper price. And Ubi won't get much of out of it. I did this with H5. I purchased it with all expansions for ... idk 20? maybe? EUR. I admit I purchased H6 at release, but I regret it, and will not do same mistake. So again. Why bother to say 10 thousad'th time that Ashan sucks? When you know people have heard it from you, and devs aswell, they just don't give a damn. They don't want to make a game for people who were 10 years old, 20 years ago, but for those who are 10 years now.
I personaly don't care about Ashan. I care mostly that gameplay is on par or better than previous titles. I know I won't do campaigns and such, but will only play it ocasionaly with friends via LAN. You don't need to read a single story line for that. Important stuff is which creature deals more damage, not which looks better.
But ok looks are not bad, and are of some importance, hence I do care about looks somewhat. But lore? I just don't care. This is the reason I don't complain. I think Ashan is bad. Lore is absurd and makes no sense, just as you said. This means it dosen't deserve my atention.
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted April 04, 2015 10:15 PM |
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LizardWarrior said:
War-overlord said:
Do you know who invented the connotattion of green with sickness, disease and poison? It wasn't Blizzard or Erwan. It was the 19th century, since green pigment was often highly toxic. And it was associated with sickness because nautious people get a green tinge. If you want to blame green for being associated with sickness and poison, blame 19th century Europe.
Protolisk said:
Wikipedia Article on the Four Horsemen said:
The color of Death's horse is written as khloros in the original Koine Greek, which can mean either green/greenish-yellow or pale/pallid. The color is often translated as "pale", though "ashen", "pale green", and "yellowish green" are other possible interpretations (the Greek word is the root of "chlorophyll" and "chlorine"). Based on uses of the word in ancient Greek medical literature, several scholars suggest that the color reflects the sickly pallor of a corpse. In some modern artistic depictions, the horse is distinctly green.
You're both wrong. Green comes from Paris Green and I stated it several times
@Proto: besides yellow(!)-green it also means "pale", you know... the paleness of dead things? Because the blood is no longer circulating?
You just justified W-O. Just changed the date from 19th century to classic era which gives further credence to his point. Well done
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted April 04, 2015 10:22 PM |
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War-overlord said:
Do you know who invented the connotattion of green with sickness, disease and poison? It wasn't Blizzard or Erwan. It was the 19th century, since green pigment was often highly toxic. And it was associated with sickness because nautious people get a green tinge. If you want to blame green for being associated with sickness and poison, blame 19th century Europe.
As I stated before the green comes from Paris Green
War-overlord said:
Purple is also a major colour for Dungeon. But it's not nearly as present as in Dungeon. Face it, Purple is the colour of Shadow Magic in Ashan, everything associated with darkness will get purple. And again, that is because of cultural connotations. Like shadows, purple is the colour of ambiguity and ambivalence. And of mourning, because in olden times people in mourning eventually replaced black with purple.
If you want a Necropolis dissasociated with death, disease and mourning....
Yeah, so we got both green and purple in the same faction, as rather dominant colors. Except purple any other dark color can be associated with darkness, dark blue for example, it's easy associated with night sky. And in no case the glowing purple, dark red, dark blue can be as easily associated with mourning. For example, the Celts had red as a mourning color, the Chinese had white, Egyptians had yellow. So why not yellow? Since they try to do these Egyptian themes anyway
War-overlord said:
Is your problem that Ashan does it right and actually makes it look halfway Levantine? Because Warcaft realy does not try to make it look all that Levantine.
Or would you rather have Necropolis look Gothic and Frankensteiny? Guess what that looks like? New Forsaken Architecture anyone?
Dude, are you trying to compare these two:
yet say that these aren't the same:
War-overlord said:
No, they were only not as Alchemically advanced. Many Vanilla Forsaken quests has you helping Apothecaries research and refine the Blight, slaughter the remaining Humans of Loraderon and fail to raise them as stable undead or reverse-engineer Scourge-tech.
But that was only after Cataclysm, no? They used the blight before to combat the scourge
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Sligneris
Supreme Hero
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posted April 04, 2015 10:27 PM |
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@Zombi_Wizzard: ...I'm an adult, you know.
That being said, I do agree that you're spot on in regards to making this kind of complaints.
___
Still, I really wish that those who say that lore does not make sense started bringing out some actual contradictions within it... Because I keep hearing 'incoherent', but I see nothing of the sort.
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted April 04, 2015 10:31 PM |
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GenyaArikado said:
You just justified W-O. Just changed the date from 19th century to classic era which gives further credence to his point. Well done
I stated that every-time I talked about the green color And it's an insecticide, you know? It was corrosive only when mixed with lead arsenate.
Also you got a tendency to hide behind W.O's statements. Like everytime. I wonder what would you do if he posted anti-Ashan arguments?
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted April 04, 2015 10:33 PM |
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Zombi_Wizzard said:
I know that if I don't like the game, I don't play it. Why would I? Spend money and time for something that I don't like?
I dislike Ashan, but I love Heroes of Might and Magic.
(It is some kind of Battle in the North, if you get the reference )
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted April 04, 2015 10:35 PM |
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LizardWarrior said:
As I stated before the green comes from Paris Green
It states exactly there that it was a toxic pigment.
Only thing was, it wasn't the first and only.
I'm not saying Paris Green ain't got nothing to do with it, but the connotation was there before the product.
LizardWarrior said:
Yeah, so we got both green and purple in the same faction, as rather dominant colors. Except purple any other dark color can be associated with darkness, dark blue for example, it's easy associated with night sky. And in no case the glowing purple, dark red, dark blue can be as easily associated with mourning. For example, the Celts had red as a mourning color, the Chinese had white, Egyptians had yellow. So why not yellow? Since they try to do these Egyptian themes anyway
First, Purple isn't dominant in H7.
Second, this game isn't made for Celts and Ancient Egyptians, nor are the Chinese a primary demographic. The game is marketed towards a Western audience, made by Western Artists. They are gonna use colours that make sense and speak to Westerners.
You cannot blame for growing up in the culture that they grow up in.
LizardWarrior said:
Dude, are you trying to compare these two:yet say that these aren't the same:
I'm not going to bother repeating the pics.
First, I never claimed that H3 was in any way Gothic.
However I do claim that Blizzard Scourge Architecture is not as actively trying to be Levantine.
LizardWarrior said:
But that was only after Cataclysm, no? They used the blight before to combat the scourge
No, it was before as well. Just not as succesfull. The Forsaken worked in Vanilla WoW and BC to create that Blight and test it and has PC's aid in the process.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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Sligneris
Supreme Hero
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posted April 04, 2015 10:36 PM |
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Galaad said:
I dislike Ashan, but I love Heroes of Might and Magic.
(It is some kind of Battle in the North, if you get the reference )
I feel that what he means is that in this case, you can play Heroes 1-4 instead of constantly complain on the current universe, but I think you had an answer for this kind of suggestion already.
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Alex_Yakub
Famous Hero
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posted April 04, 2015 10:37 PM |
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I'm on the Ashan side of things here. What true is true, Heroes fanbase is plagued by the fans that are never pleased. Some of them are old fans that want abstract "good old times" to come back, even though this times are gone forever. Ashan is good world, with a deep lore, and we have to face it, old worlds, where lore is virtually nonexistant, are not even comparable to it in this regard. And then there are some fans that are just complaining for the sake of complaining. I remember perfectly well when many posters here were saying game needs more mythological beasts and less humanoids in each faction. Then a big chunk of them voted for the Fury lineup of Sylvan, that had five humanoids IN A ROW, and lacked the symbol of the faction, unicorn. In the end we all have to accept Ashan is here to stay, no matter how much we complain on this forum. We also have to accept the fact we represent a very little fraction of fans (many votes on the main site confirm this, although not the Fury one, unfortunately). Also, mind that I was not trying to blame anyone in this post, just wanted to point out some problems this very community has. Peace
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted April 04, 2015 10:46 PM |
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Alex_Yakub said:
Ashan is good world, with a deep lore, and we have to face it, old worlds, where lore is virtually nonexistant, are not even comparable to it in this regard.
seriously, just because a couple of you guys keep saying that, it's not gonna magically make it true lol
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This thread is pages long: 
