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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted April 08, 2015 02:14 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
i believe Sligneris deserves a QP for defending Ashan without being a total tool about it.
seriously, it's nice having someone enjoying and defending Ashan in a friendly manner. keep it up 
unlike someone else i could mention...
Hear, Hear!
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted April 08, 2015 02:17 PM |
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Edited by verriker at 14:18, 08 Apr 2015.
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Sligneris said:
Frankly, considering that, I don't exactly see why Verrkier got a quality point for that post earlier - it's hardly any real contribution to actual discussion, it's just some preaching that a moderator simply agreed with.
War-overlord said:
But this kind of posts, which are not very contributive at best and plain trolling at worst, does nothing to the discussion but disrupt it. It isn't lighthearted mockery designed bring some levity to the discussion. And if it is, it greatly fails and it comes across to me as just another piece of Fan Dumb that has been allowed to run so rampant of late.
GenyaArikado said:
So, basically im screwed to like 3 minutes of the flood protect but he gets qps despite derailing every thread into his "lolashansuks"? He claims that he doesnt believe in the superiority of any kind of fan but you are a brainwashed spider erwan fan if you DARE to believe that the post Ubi games arent pure snow in every sense.. Thats bullying and the reason i insult him and the others.
lol come on, I didn't get a QP for my views, but rather because someone found my expression of them to be creative and funny
of course you guys who think it's a game of two sides are going to say "we are not amused" and call the moderators biased, that's your own bias manifesting in full force lol, but rather than trying to attack the forum staff, why not come up with a witty retort to me instead so we can all have a laugh?
I don't think complaining about complaining is likely to entertain anyone lol
it's possible to take things far too seriously you know, as if anyone even has a real stake in this kind of argument lol
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted April 08, 2015 02:20 PM |
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GenyaArikado said:
1- He does more than one, given the latest H7 thread derail about Erwan
2 and 3- You arent on the recieving end. What do you know?
4- I'm not claiming it has. Im claiming that given the decline of interest, the qp system affecting posting abilities is unneeded
1) He's allowed to voice his opinion - within limits - on things concerning H7 as much as anyone else.
Keep in mind, Erwan is not you.
2-3) For instance I know that it's better to roll with the punches, report people when necessary and not be concerned about perceived insults.
Personal insults are frowned upon hardly beneficial, so if you experience it, report it.
4) Bots and ill-intended people still exist, I believe it was put in place mainly to keep those in check.
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LizardWarrior 
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted April 08, 2015 02:37 PM |
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If someone manages to bring Erwan on HC I will recommend not one, but 2 QPs and I will message the mods 3 times everyday until he receives them! 
Avirosb said:
Keep in mind, Erwan is not you.
How can you know? 
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted April 08, 2015 03:49 PM |
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War-overlord said:
Elvin said:
Sligneris said:
Frankly, considering that, I don't exactly see why Verrkier got a quality point for that post earlier - it's hardly any real contribution to actual discussion, it's just some preaching that a moderator simply agreed with....
It gave me a laugh, that has to count for something 
Does it, though? It is things like this that make this entire forum come across as greatly biased and has prompted people to leave and contemplate leaving.
I am very well aware that the mods here have a difficult job to do and often not a lot of time to do it in. And I sympathise with the mods greatly, but your lack of active presence is sorely missed.
But this kind of posts, which are not very contributive at best and plain trolling at worst, does nothing to the discussion but disrupt it. It isn't lighthearted mockery designed bring some levity to the discussion. And if it is, it greatly fails and it comes across to me as just another piece of Fan Dumb that has been allowed to run so rampant of late.
This rewarding makes it seem that Anti-Ashan Trolling is actively encouraged. On the other hand, people standing up to this kind of behaviour, not all of them saints themselves, are often the targets of ad-hominem attacks or even penalized. The recent treatment of Kimarous is a good example. I do not condone his outbursts, but he struck a cord with several people. If all members are treated equal, then some people are treated more equal than others.
I concur with this sentiment. Giving Verriker 3 QPs in under 4 weeks for essentially the same reason downplays the value of them.
Frankly, the forum has lost it appeal over the last few months. Almost every single thread gets derailed by this idiotic 'bash-Ashan vs pro-Ashan' bickering...I wish mods would put an end to it
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted April 08, 2015 03:54 PM |
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Does QP stand for QualityPoint? Just wondering
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted April 08, 2015 03:54 PM |
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The point I was trying to make in my subtle little way is that the qp wasn't about promoting certain views. But of course a sense of humour cannot be objectively evaluated so it remains up the the individual moderator's discretion.
I don't get the battle of universes to be honest, everyone has his own opinion on the matter. Ashan has its good points, it has its ridiculously bad points as well So what if some are vocal about it? If anything, verriker has proven a polite and friendly individual and to my knowledge, he has not condemned anyone about their views regardless of how he personally feels about them.
@Kiryu
I get why you feel that way but I do not agree. Your penalties were given simply because you did not respect the code of conduct and I have personally edited out posts of yours that should have otherwise been penalized. Not because I was doing you a favour but because I did not believe that a penalty there would have helped in any way.
But you are right about the qp system not quite working. When I work 13-14 hours a day and my life as I know it is hanging from a very thin thread, I cannot afford the time to read and evaluate people's posts. Other moderators are similarly busy and that is unfair to many posters who should have been given more attention, whether that requires a friendly warning, some feedback or a well-deserved reward. I can only speak for myself when I say that I am sorry I cannot be here to make this forum a better place. All I see is a small portion of the forum posts and this is unlikely to change anytime soon.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted April 08, 2015 03:59 PM |
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Edited by kiryu133 at 16:00, 08 Apr 2015.
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Elvin said:
@Kiryu
I get why you feel that way but I do not agree. Your penalties were given simply because you did not respect the code of conduct and I have personally edited out posts of yours that should have otherwise been penalized. Not because I was doing you a favour but because I did not believe that a penalty there would have helped in any way.
wat?
when did i get a penalty?
@LW: ssh, this is fun.
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted April 08, 2015 03:59 PM |
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I think he wanted to say Genya
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted April 08, 2015 04:01 PM |
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Oops my bad. I meant genya.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted April 08, 2015 04:03 PM |
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted April 08, 2015 04:04 PM |
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I seem to recall someone calling them peanuts at one point but I have no idea
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Dies_Irae
Supreme Hero
with the perfect plan
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posted April 08, 2015 04:07 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
i believe Sligneris deserves a QP for defending Ashan without being a total tool about it.
seriously, it's nice having someone enjoying and defending Ashan in a friendly manner. keep it up
unlike someone else i could mention...
Hey, I wrote something in favor of Ashan too, you know  .
http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=40567&PID=1291409#focus
Honestly, I don't care about QP's or red stars. If a moderator thinks a post of mine is worth a bonus point (or not), that is his/her decision. I will make sure that I don't collect any penalties, which is not a difficult mission. The pro thing to keep in mind on fora like these is to always be polite towards another member, even if that member is not polite towards you. You don't fight anger with anger!
I openly declare my appreciation for H6 (here) and I defend Ashan even though both are not the most popular opinions on this very website. What can I do about that? I just happen to like this the way it is now (in general, there are some points of attention to be taken into account, though). You can't expect me to bow to popular demand ...
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted April 08, 2015 04:07 PM |
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I couldnt care less about my penalties. I'm just calling you and your system out. It's not working, in fact, it's terrible.
Avirosb said:
1) He's allowed to voice his opinion - within limits - on things concerning H7 as much as anyone else.
Keep in mind, Erwan is not you.
2-3) For instance I know that it's better to roll with the punches, report people when necessary and not be concerned about perceived insults.
Personal insults are frowned upon hardly beneficial, so if you experience it, report it.
4) Bots and ill-intended people still exist, I believe it was put in place mainly to keep those in check.
No. But Erwan doesnt have to deal with the 10+ pages of what constitutes the position of creative director or essays on whether a lich should have a skull face or not. I do, regardless it's on topic or not and on several threads with mods awarding QPs since #funny and ignoring the snowfest.
"Roll with the punches" omg bye
And the other forums deal with them without this style of flood protect.
verriker said:
lol come on, I didn't get a QP for my views, but rather because someone found my expression of them to be creative and funny
imo if it was someone like war overlord or kiryu it would come off funny since those people are aware of the good and the bad. You just come off as a bitter man trying to throw shiza at the post Ubi franchise everytime you can.
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted April 08, 2015 04:09 PM |
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Quote:
I do, regardless it's on topic or not
Who forces you? You don't seem to read them anyway
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted April 08, 2015 04:18 PM |
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Edited by kiryu133 at 16:19, 08 Apr 2015.
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@Dies_Irae
Sligneris is the one i see defend Ashan frequently without being a dick so yeah. your posts seems pretty nice too, there just doesn't seem to be that many of them (or at least prevalent) so sorry if i ruffled your feathers
EDIT:
GenyaArikado said:
imo if it was someone like war overlord or kiryu it would come off funny since those people are aware of the good and the bad.
why thank you
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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Dies_Irae
Supreme Hero
with the perfect plan
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posted April 08, 2015 04:21 PM |
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LizardWarrior said:
Isn't it funny how the whole universe is biased against Ashan? I mean, not only the HC forum, but the writers of the very universe you defend. I mean, me, Verriker, Galaad and Stevie got invited to the fan event, the biggest critics and loud mouths that mock the existence of such a fantasy universe got invited to Paris, on developer's expense to go and meet the writer of this universe. So God, Allah, Zeus, Ra, Flying Spaghetti Monster, Nuclear Strong Force or whatever deity patrons over this universe which shelters our mortal coils has made such a twist of fate, an irony of destiny, then emerges the question: is it worth defending Ashan?
The very fact that you are so loud and outspoken got you invited to their HQ in Paris . I think they made a very commendable choice by bringing in some of the major criticizers of their franchise/universe etc, so they could give you the opportunity to speak to them face-to-face, to ask you about your experiences, and show you personally the direction in which the new game is headed.
What if they had invited only some asskissers, pardon the language, who would do nothing but say 'yes and amen' and praise their work into the seven Heavens? That may very well have given a wrong image and feedback. With you, however, they showed that they care for even the loudest people and are not afraid to invite them over for a personal chat .
I think it's worth defending Ashan. Everyone has the right to do this, just as much as people have the right to hate it. The important thing is the way it is defended or hated upon. Shouting, caps lock abuse and threats? No. Constructive, argumented opinions which take both the good and bad sides into consideration? Yes.
--
@kiryu133:
I'm not as active as Sligneris, that's true. Maybe I'm just a bit careful, even though I shouldn't be. I'm more present on the MMH7 blog than here, though.
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted April 08, 2015 04:24 PM |
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Well, that post was an answer to Genya, it's kinda out of context this way 
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted April 08, 2015 04:29 PM |
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Storm-Giant said:
Frankly, the forum has lost it appeal over the last few months. Almost every single thread gets derailed by this idiotic 'bash-Ashan vs pro-Ashan' bickering...I wish mods would put an end to it
I fully agree. I finally managed to catch up to the end of this torrent of posts, but I find the sway across the last 15 pages to be quite ... absurd.
At one point, there's mud slinging and almost name calling and then a few pages later there's actual internal and deeply analysing discussions going on.
The thing with the QP's has me confused as well. I thought they were intended to mark valuable posts, worthy of reading and preserving for prosperity. Not to blow my own trumpet, but I've made some posts in the past that fell under that category in the past, which were skipped while other, non-sensical posts received QP's. No, I am not angling for QP's, because I don't truly care about them, but it sure does feel weird when those posts are skipped for them.
Also, I think it's somewhat weird to use the QP status as a penalizing system as well. Even if members get devaluated because they made negative posts, does it devaluate the posts that were worthy of the QP they received for it? But anyway, that's just the way the forum is setup.
As for the specific topic at hand: in my opinion the major problems of Ashan are three-fold.
First of all, as Alcibiadis already wrote, the Lore is omnipresent and the Holy Bible of Ashan. In my opinion, the Lore should be a lot more vague and take a backseat, only being referenced here and there. A new player at first shouldn't have to know much about the Lore but as he progresses through the games and campaigns, a somewhat clear image should start to appear of the deeper background of the world of Ashan. Some things that are shady at first should end up being cast in a new light as that image forms.
At the same time, the Lore shouldn't be "complete"; there should be gaps and missing parts, which leaves room for people (both behind the keyboard as well as in the world of Ashan) to assume how those gaps are actually filled. Later info may fill part of those gaps, perhaps even in ways to put some nuances on the parts already known, or downright twist them into something else while still being true.
Lore in its essence is a distillation of events and occurences of ancient times, even if some of them have become completely twisted and deformed with respect to their truth. Our own ancient history is riddled with it, too, so why no Ashan? As such, events of older stories (like those from Heroes6) should also be distilled to a component here and there which finds their way into the Lore of what makes the world of Heroes7 (and Heroes5, although that's hard because it's ahead in time of the events in the games that followed it) for the people that live in it.
The second aspect is how strong the religious component is for the lives of everyday people. All of the deities being followed are aspects of one of the same major god, Ashan. They're shades of grey but ultimately on more or less the same level. Take the ancient Roman or Greek religion, with its multiple Gods all having their own agenda and not being shy of battling eachother or their parents. Even if religion is a part of the Lore, this too should take more of a backseat. Take away the direct influence in the world and let the various signs and aspects live a life of their own for the people in the world to interpret. Just like in reallife, where various streams within one and the same religion follow such a different way of expressing it, that it comes to punches (and guns, and missiles and bombs and whatever ...).
It's all because there is room for interpretation - room that is sorely lacking in Ashan, even if for instance Shalassa and Elrath are at odds. But the point is that this is set in stone: they're always at odds with one another because they represent different iconic aspects of the same overall deity. They don't form opportunistic relationships, with backstabbing when it suits them, like the old Roman and Greek Gods did.
Following this, despite them enlarging ("epic and enchanting") all sorts of features of factions and creating large contrast, they made actual faction standings various shades of grey instead of black and white. In the classic HoMM games, Haven and Rampart were "good" factions, Inferno and Necropolis were "evil" factions and Fortress and Stronghold swayed whichever way the wind was blowing. Because they dropped that (except Inferno) and brought factions all closer together, it all becomes a grey blur. Nothing really good or evil. Conceptual differences between conviction and morality become that much harder to escalate and explode - while escalations and explosions between factions are the very soil of all sorts of stories. Of Heroes and Villains - and true examples of either kind are sorely missing in Ashan.
One final note with respect to the current Arachnopolis: it wasn't until I saw the interview with Erwan in which he explained his philosophy with respect to the current implementation that I understood it. And I also understood why people were put off with how the faction was implemented since Heroes5 (but especially in Heroes6). UbiSoft calls it a "Necropolis", but it really isn't and that's mostly because it isn't considered a faction that's a threat to all life. It's just a faction that happens to deal with (un)death, but as a side dish; the Arachnomancers are really only interested in their own selfish desires for eternal life. Unlike the classical Necropolis which is on a self-imposed crusade to extinguish all life, the Arachnopolis in Ashan couldn't care less if life exists in the world or not - the only thing that matters is whatever suits their own personal goals of eternal life and preservation and undeath is just a natural shape for them to consider this in. If the form of pink butterflies would be the way to eternal life instead of being undeath, Arachnopolis would be all pink and butterfly-y with flowers everywhere to attract them. So, in short, the neutral Arachnopolis in Ashan =/= classical evil Necropolis. It's abusing its name, however, which leads to confusion as to their intent and goals.
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted April 08, 2015 04:29 PM |
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War-overlord said:
kiryu133 said:
i believe Sligneris deserves a QP for defending Ashan without being a total tool about it.
seriously, it's nice having someone enjoying and defending Ashan in a friendly manner. keep it up
unlike someone else i could mention...
Hear, Hear!
I agree. I'm starting the think the only way to get a QP is to bash on Ashan/Erwan enough. Which is why I was wondering what it stood for.
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This thread is pages long: 
