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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: Sylvan Line-up
Thread: Sylvan Line-up This thread is 79 pages long: 1 10 20 30 ... 38 39 40 41 42 ... 50 60 70 79 · «PREV / NEXT»
Alex_Yakub
Alex_Yakub


Famous Hero
posted September 18, 2014 09:23 AM
Edited by Alex_Yakub at 09:23, 18 Sep 2014.

alcibiades said:
Alex_Yakub said:
It's 22/40/38 now! Go, Balance! Beat that nonsensical Fury lineup!

Meh ... You are entitled to have your opinion and prefer balance, but please, explain to me why Fure is "nonsensical"?

Too many humanoids? Check. No unicorn? Check. Uninteresting blade dancers? Check. Two walking tank champions in the lineup that is supposedly the most aggressive? Check. The most aggressive lineup shares 5 of 8 units with the most defensive one? Check. Should I continue?
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted September 18, 2014 09:47 AM

Alex_Yakub said:
alcibiades said:
Alex_Yakub said:
It's 22/40/38 now! Go, Balance! Beat that nonsensical Fury lineup!

Meh ... You are entitled to have your opinion and prefer balance, but please, explain to me why Fure is "nonsensical"?

Too many humanoids? Check. No unicorn? Check. Uninteresting blade dancers? Check. Two walking tank champions in the lineup that is supposedly the most aggressive? Check. The most aggressive lineup shares 5 of 8 units with the most defensive one? Check. Should I continue?

All of these are valid reasons to dislike the line-up, but I don't really see them making it nonsensical, except perhaps for the last one.

I think the idea that the idea that this line-up should be more humanoid is just a figment, and personally, I find the Blade Dancer just as good, and just as bad, as the Emerald Knight artwork we've seen so far. Same but with a different name. All line-ups share 4-5 units with the other line-ups, and while I do agree that Dragon/Treant seems like an odd combo for an offense line-up, that doesn't change the fact that the Strength line-up, with the same champions, will still be more turtelish.

I'm not saying that Fury is perfect line-up, because it is far from, but don't try to sell Balance like it is, because hey, Balance ALSO has no Unicorn, and Balance ALSO has an uninteresting elf walker, and Balance also has the odd choice of not giving the Treant/Dryad synergy in the only line-up that forces the Treant on you, plus from a personal perspective, Balance has the Snake which I think is completely out of place in Sylvan.

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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 18, 2014 09:53 AM

alcibiades said:

All of these are valid reasons to dislike the line-up, but I don't really see them making it nonsensical, except perhaps for the last one.

I think the idea that the idea that this line-up should be more humanoid is just a figment, and personally, I find the Blade Dancer just as good, and just as bad, as the Emerald Knight artwork we've seen so far. Same but with a different name. All line-ups share 4-5 units with the other line-ups, and while I do agree that Dragon/Treant seems like an odd combo for an offense line-up, that doesn't change the fact that the Strength line-up, with the same champions, will still be more turtelish.

I'm not saying that Fury is perfect line-up, because it is far from, but don't try to sell Balance like it is, because hey, Balance ALSO has no Unicorn, and Balance ALSO has an uninteresting elf walker, and Balance also has the odd choice of not giving the Treant/Dryad synergy in the only line-up that forces the Treant on you, plus from a personal perspective, Balance has the Snake which I think is completely out of place in Sylvan.



This exactly.

And no matter how you look at it, Fury is still the aggressive line-up by definition. And that's prone to get votes from people who prefer that instead of the defensive one.

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jhb
jhb


Famous Hero
posted September 18, 2014 10:00 AM

Hmm, about the line-up...
Phoenix in Sylvan? Wouldn't this assassinate the lore a little?
Also, I'm a bit unsure about the root snake.

@Alex_Yakub Where are the unicorns in Balance line-up? I saw only strength of the forest with them.

Just looking at the units and forgetting about offence/defence, I'm tending to go with Fury.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted September 18, 2014 10:14 AM
Edited by MattII at 10:15, 18 Sep 2014.

jhb said:
Phoenix in Sylvan? Wouldn't this assassinate the lore a little?
Compared to previous retcons that would be minor.

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adriancat
adriancat


Famous Hero
Protector Of The Peace
posted September 18, 2014 10:14 AM

jhb said:
Hmm, about the line-up...
Phoenix in Sylvan? Wouldn't this assassinate the lore a little?
Also, I'm a bit unsure about the root snake.

@Alex_Yakub Where are the unicorns in Balance line-up? I saw only strength of the forest with them.

Just looking at the units and forgetting about offence/defence, I'm tending to go with Fury.


I think Sylanna's Fury is the best option for Sylvan, because :

1- More unique gameplay - a rushing Sylvan who also has defending posibilities (Dryad-Treant combo + Hunters and Druids shooting from behind) ;
2- Totally new offensive unit - the Sun Deer ;
3- No Snakes and no Birds (these don't belong to Sylvan) ;
4- More chances for Sylvan to be one of the top factions in this game (because we all know that almost always the defending races are among the weakest side in every game).
5- Treant as a champion, with a more important role (like it should always be for Sylvan).

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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 18, 2014 10:53 AM

adriancat said:
jhb said:
Hmm, about the line-up...
Phoenix in Sylvan? Wouldn't this assassinate the lore a little?
Also, I'm a bit unsure about the root snake.

@Alex_Yakub Where are the unicorns in Balance line-up? I saw only strength of the forest with them.

Just looking at the units and forgetting about offence/defence, I'm tending to go with Fury.


I think Sylanna's Fury is the best option for Sylvan, because :

1- More unique gameplay - a rushing Sylvan who also has defending posibilities (Dryad-Treant combo + Hunters and Druids shooting from behind) ;
2- Totally new offensive unit - the Sun Deer ;
3- No Snakes and no Birds (these don't belong to Sylvan) ;
4- More chances for Sylvan to be one of the top factions in this game (because we all know that almost always the defending races are among the weakest side in every game).
5- Treant as a champion, with a more important role (like it should always be for Sylvan).



This.

Nice pointing of Synergy between Treant-Dryad. Something you don't get with Balance.

My little message there

Quote:
Fury vs Balance

1. Hunter-Pixie-Dryad has a better synergy than Hunter-Pixie-Snake; Snake is faster than Pixie which renders Pixie negate retaliation ability useless;
2. Fury has 3 dedicated damage dealers as Elites, Balance has 2. Treant has no Dryad healing support, and he's the tank!
3. Phoenix description says "hard-to-kill and self-resurrection". In English that means Tank.

So Fury has better damage output and even better synergy.
Balance focuses on creatures individually.

I chose Fury!



Ofc I was limited by the space restrictions so I couldn't go any further in but my last words pretty much summed up what I wanted to say. Fury has higher damage output given all 3 Elites are dedicated damagers. With Pixie paving the way with her ability the rest of the army can inflict a devastating amount of damage that literally means the enemy is crippled for the rest of the battle. More damage you - more kills - less troops enemy has less damage they inflict! And if that's not enough, Dryad and Treant synergy provides efficient Tanking potential with no losses.

Root Enemies in place -> Pixie removes retaliation -> elites hit everything -> Heal tank with Dryad. It's what Sylvan truly is. Damage and Synergy.

Balance on the other hand.. If there was no Pixie it wouldn't had any Synergy. The Treant is Elite and has no healing support. Count the Phoenix (which imo doesn't even fit Sylvan) and the Dragon tanks too and you have 3 Tanks! Another creature, the Root Snake (which is probably the most ridiculous one in the whole line-up) is practically a weak mini-treant because of the entangle ability. And the one thing you wouldn't want to do with a core, is tank the creature you entangled with 0 heal. You might argue that the Pixie can remove the enemy's retaliation, so at least some defense mechanism. But think that the Snake is "super fast" and Pixie is not, you'll begin the combat with the creature that needs to pave the way for Snake coming second from behind! That's not rightly done.

Strength has one thing that I absolutely dislike - defensive play. And one thing that I absolutely love and think it's very iconic - the Unicorn. Since play come first for me I chose Fury above that, and got myself the next best thing, the Twilight Stags. New creature which I hope will play nicely on the battlefield. Synergy in Strength is present, unfortunately no Pixie and we get the Snake..


So there you have it. My thoughts on this. Hope I've been of help.

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jhb
jhb


Famous Hero
posted September 18, 2014 11:01 AM
Edited by Elvin at 16:08, 18 Sep 2014.

Voted for Fury. :S
"perfect balance" might be a good slogan for a nature faction, but phoenixes and snakes fighting together looks a bit weird for me. Snake would fit a warlock or lizard faction better (dark elves or h3 fortress). Same goes for snakes and unicorns together...
I also liked the stags, but i think they could get better horns, lotr style maybe:

http://lightsinthedarknessdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/snow-white-and-the-huntsman.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-tWci1bsEto0/T8uzsT-7tBI/AAAAAAAAAWQ/Y4F88AyaBds/s1600/snow+white+stag.jpg

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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 18, 2014 01:53 PM

Thanks for voting Fury

Btw, really nice pictures there.

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Raelag84
Raelag84


Famous Hero
posted September 18, 2014 02:00 PM

MattII said:
Raelag84 said:
We of the Ubisoft generation hear a lot of the negative from older fans, but little of the positive, so we newer fans just get the impression you guys are upset about loosing the old universe.
Actually have a look at what our complaints are maybe? They're generally not to do with feeling, but with function, things like working straight out of the box (both H5 and H6 were really buggy), plots (Isabel was a hero? Really?), map navigation, etc. That H5 improved some of the mechanics from H3 is not enough to gain out overwhelming support, not when it took 2 expansions to get it right.


I am only suggesting that when people don't want something they occasionally suggest what they want instead. For example, there's been a lot of complaints about Emerald knights. That's cool, but what would be preferable?

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Storm-Giant
Storm-Giant


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
posted September 18, 2014 02:18 PM
Edited by Storm-Giant at 14:41, 18 Sep 2014.

Resize that pic please!

Quote:
In Balance you get :

- An interesting change between strong walking Dragon and fast flyer, the Phoenix.
- Balanced elite level combination - shooter, damager and defender.

In Fury you get :

- Change between two walking Champions.
- Shooter and two damagers on Elite level ? And no defender.

As a result Balance looks more versatile and interesting. It can adjust to any situation.
While Fury is very unidirectional, it will be uninteresting playing it.

Vote for Balance. Vote for interesting gameplay.

Very good points

And people saying that Phoenix are full tanks are so delusional
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Hanzan
Hanzan


Hired Hero
May Sandro rule forever
posted September 18, 2014 02:25 PM

Never liked the phoenix to be honest. But thats a personal matter.

I voted for Fury. It has something appealing and treants as champions? Now thats loveable.
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Well, I guess you'll have to
kill me. Go on, send me to the
afterlife....

- Markal, Infiltrator of the
Holy Court.

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Sleeping_Sun
Sleeping_Sun


Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
posted September 18, 2014 02:35 PM
Edited by Sleeping_Sun at 14:43, 18 Sep 2014.

To me, this Dryad + Treant synergy of Fury comes too late. It is a Core + Champion creature, which means it is only possible in late game. By the time you get it, you might have already lost a good number of your creatures. However, in Balance, yes, you probably cannot heal Treant, but he comes as an elite, which means you will have your tank much earlier, than in Fury build.
In addition, I am not fond of Dryad + Treant and Dragon. What use is this synergy if it comes too late. But than, what use is the Dragon attacker with average movement speed among all those (quick and fast) attacking units. The Dragon must be something really special to choose it instead of Treant for its synergy with Dryad. Thus in Fury, you have an option for additional attacker, who is slower, or a tank who has come too late. However, in Balance you chose between two things. Manoeuvrable Phoenix as a tank whose position you can adjust more easily than Treant's, and Dragon which can augment the attacking power of Balance line-up.
(NB: I do not want to discuss which creatures belong to faction, since it is personal preference and useless to argue about that, because we will never agree...)

Balance vs. Fury - CORE:
Both options have Hunter as a range attacker and a Pixie. However, Snake (Balance) is much more useful in early game because it can serve as a mini tank, with its entangling ability, thus it is perfect "synergy" with Hunter. We do not know the abilities of a Dryad, but at the beginning of the game will she be able to support just Treant or other units as well? It she can only support Treant than at the beginning, she might be useless, as there is no way to stop the advance of melee creatures. There is no one to tank.
Thus, I believe that Balance is better in core creatures.

Balance vs. Fury - ELITE:
Both options have Druid as a range attacker, who can also entangle opponents, thus the advance of melee units can be stopped. However, Balance option can use the entangling power to its maximum because it has 3 units which have this ability: Snake, Druid and Treant. In addition, Emerald warrior can be considered an archer because of its strike and return ability. Thus Balance has 2 tanks, so to say, Treant and Snake. while the damage dealers are Hunter, Druid, Emerald W. and Pixie (and possibly snake?). On the other hand, Fury option has only Druid who can entangle. Blade Dancer, who has great attacking ability, but since he will be accompanied by Deer, he will also have to tank, although he is not meant for that role. It is difficult to say anything about Deer, again because we do not know about its supporting abilities, but it is still a charger unit like Blade Dancer, who will charge at the enemy, but I am not sure how fragile they will be. But of course, if Deer and Dancer can take care of units in the first charge, than the defence or tanking ability doesn't matter much. Right? In addition what is the worth of Dancer's multi-strike ability if the field is something like this. His ability will largely depend on the type of battlefield (how much it is crowded)...
While Balance option relies on keeping the enemy units in place and killing them from afar, Fury relies on pure damage to destroy their enemy before they can do anything. Here, I think that both options have good units, but it is just personal taste if you like it all offensive (Fury) or a bit more tactical/defensive/careful planning play style (Balance).
NB:Also I must add that Fury option reminds me of Blood Fury unit from H5 Dungeon. She has great attacking power, but the unit is lost very quickly, especially if targeted by damaging spells. I know I cannot compare unit with a line-up, but I do not want to have many strong attacking units, which are too fragile.

Balance vs. Fury - Champion:
Both options have Green Dragon, which is a good AoE attacking unit. Thus, Balance can choose this unit if it needs to be more attack oriented, or choose Phoenix if a player wants more defence. In Fury build, Treat comes too late as a tank I believe, even though the synergy with dryad is great. In addition, in Fury line-up Treant is the ONLY unit who can tank.
I would like to know Phoenix's supporting abilities, and which is better Phoenix + its ability to rise from its ashes, or Treant and Dryad synergy. I am curious which of the two will provide better defence?

But, now I notice a problem. Look at the battlefield 1 and battlefield 2.
Because Fury has a lot of walkers, I am scared if they could achieve their fullest attacking potential, because of these maze combat maps. There are no space for manoeuvrability. Will you be able to attack with all your walkers in such crowded maps? Personally, I believe they will not be able. That is why I favour Balance, because it has more fliers, entanglers, and tanking units to manipulate the battlefield. It will be much easier for Phoenix to fly over the obstacles than Treant or Dragon to bypass them.

Hope I gave some food for thought...

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War-overlord
War-overlord


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
posted September 18, 2014 02:44 PM
Edited by War-overlord at 14:44, 18 Sep 2014.

Sleeping_Sun said:
Hope I gave some food for thought...
Such as: The question why Strenght isn't included into your deliberations?
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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 18, 2014 03:00 PM

Storm-Giant said:

And people saying that Phoenix are full tanks are so delusional


"Full" Tanks?

I said they're Tanks and I bring their description as an argument: flying and hard-to-kill creature with self-resurrection ability and supporting abilities

Hard-to-kill, no matter how you look at it, is resilience. That doesn't necessary mean that it has great defense or lots of HP. But in essence, being hard to kill is a DEFENSIVE attribute.

Self-resurrection is nothing more and nothing less that Extra Life. That basically translates into another round of HP for the enemy to kill again. It's DEFENSIVE because it works for maintaining the creature alive AND it activates by being killed.

Furthermore, if it has a Fire Shield, or Moonfire Aura, that's another DEFENSIVE skill. Because it activates when being hit.



So how am I delusional again? Even the format supports my theory.


_________________________________________
|__________|___Tank___|___Damage Dealer___|
|_Strength_|__Treant__|______Dragon_______|
|_Balance__|_Phoenix__|______Dragon_______|
|_Fury_____|__Treant__|______Dragon_______|

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Sleeping_Sun
Sleeping_Sun


Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
posted September 18, 2014 03:06 PM
Edited by Sleeping_Sun at 15:11, 18 Sep 2014.

War-overlord said:
Sleeping_Sun said:
Hope I gave some food for thought...
Such as: The question why Strenght isn't included into your deliberations?
Low votes... thus, less possibility to be chosen, at the moment.
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"The age can be wicked to those who walk alone. When I look into the Mirror, I see myself as I might become..." -Freya

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War-overlord
War-overlord


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
posted September 18, 2014 03:11 PM

Sleeping_Sun said:
Low votes...

So? Fury pulled the same trick and the polls are still open for a week.
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Sleeping_Sun
Sleeping_Sun


Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
posted September 18, 2014 03:16 PM
Edited by Sleeping_Sun at 15:18, 18 Sep 2014.

War-overlord said:
Sleeping_Sun said:
Low votes...

So? Fury pulled the same trick and the polls are still open for a week.
My post was a bit motivated by Phoenix hate, that is why I chose to include Balance and Fury only (Phoenix and one non-Phoenix option). If you are so eager to read what I have to say about the third option, I'll gladly post it.
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"The age can be wicked to those who walk alone. When I look into the Mirror, I see myself as I might become..." -Freya

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VOKIALBG
VOKIALBG


Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
posted September 18, 2014 03:21 PM

I just hope that all who voted ST. will switch to Balance in the last day, so we can kick out this Fury!
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War-overlord
War-overlord


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
posted September 18, 2014 03:22 PM

Sleeping_Sun said:
If you are so eager to read what I have to say about the third option, I'll gladly post it.

It's not like Strength can be hurt much more.
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