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Steyn
Supreme Hero
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posted September 22, 2014 11:34 AM |
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Stevie said:
War-overlord said:
Therefor, I conclude, that it is not impossible for a Root Snake to be a plant. And untill I get confirmation that it is not, I choose to believe it is a plant.
That comes flying in the face of several other factors.
First, in the context of art, the Snake has an organic head. It has teeth, it has eyes, it has nostrils, can bite and constrict its prey which I suspect is not a random habbit but for survival which means he eats and has a metabolism. So it's a Snake.
Secondly, I have not claimed that motor functions prove or disprove biological composition, so your Treant example is irrelevant.
Thirdly, I beg to differ that the name is only based on behavior. It has clear biological basis.
1st: Eyes, nosetrils? So do treants. Teeth? So does the venus flytrap, which you could say bites its pray. All carnivorous plants eat their pray and all living things have a metabolism, but that doesn't make them animals.
3rd: Whale in dutch is called walvis, with vis meaning fish. Does this make a whale a fish? NO, the name reflects its behaviour and resemblance to fish. And there are more examples. Take the seahorse. A horse is a mammal, but the seahorse is a fish.
My conclusion: the rootsnake can very well be a plant that looks and/or behaves like a snake, hence the name.
Of course there is also the possibility of mimicry, but I find War-Overlord's argument stronger (and more satisfying).
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 22, 2014 11:53 AM |
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War-overlord said:
Stevie said:
Unless you somehow prove permanent divine guidance there is no reason for us to believe that. It does not follow as a necessary conclusion from being sacred to a God, which is not even an active action taken by the Unicorn. It can well be interpreted as the God considering it sacred, in which case the whole argument falls apart.
Then still, by it's, even supposed, divine nature, it is above base animals.
And as further proof of the Divine Nature, or at the very least, proof of the Unicorn being more then simply a base animal, I give you this excerpt from the compendium, page 119.
Quote:
...Unicorns from scared groves, all join the Elves willingly in their battles. Tied to the Elves and beholden to Sylanna, they instinctively appear when and where they are needed.
This shows that, Unicorns, as wel as the other creatures spoken of, join the Elves in war by free will. Which in turn, leads us to believe that they have the intellectual capacities to make such decisions. Further more, by being at the very least beholden to the God Sylanna, shows that they are, like the sentient races, capable of having such interaction with the gods. And as a further, yet lesser, argument. The instinctive appearing where and when needed, could be very well due to divine guidance.
Congratulations.
You disproved your "non-sentient" argument yourself. Free will means accountability, therefore Snakes are accountable for their own malice.
That does not fit Sylvan.
I won't further debate direct evidence for Snakes being snakes.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted September 22, 2014 11:59 AM |
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come on guys enough with the snakes! i think it falls into the area of "personal preference" nothing to debate there!
i want us to behave like normal people and start on ubi-conspiracies! ! they are watching us!
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Steyn
Supreme Hero
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posted September 22, 2014 12:07 PM |
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Stevie said:
You disproved your "non-sentient" argument yourself. Free will means accountability, therefore Snakes are accountable for their own malice.
mmh7.com said:
Elves have long learnt to charm Root Snakes, keeping them as pets and using them as sentries to guard the secret paths leading into the heart of Irollan.
Being charmed means no free will, so not accountable for their deeds.
BTW, doesn't it make more sense to charm dangerous creatures to fight for you? By your logic the elves should use bunnies for war because they are peaceful, or squirrels because they plant trees.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted September 22, 2014 12:07 PM |
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Stevie said:
Congratulations.
You disproved your "non-sentient" argument yourself. Free will means accountability, therefore Snakes are accountable for their own malice.
That does not fit Sylvan.
No. Unicorns are. Unicorns have some form of sentience.
If I intended to prove that Root Snakes were sentient, I wouldn't be speaking about Unicorns.
You were the one who put them on the same level, which I disproved.
It states specifically that Root Snakes need to be charmed first. Therefor, I did not, disprove my own point.
____________
Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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AcidDragon
Promising
Famous Hero
who lost his body somehow...
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posted September 22, 2014 12:28 PM |
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3 Days left.
Sylanna's Fury is winning by 3 percent.
Earth's Perfect Balance is still in the game but its chances decrease with every hour.
Strength of the Forest - despite regaining a few percent - unfortunately at this point is practically out of the race.
If anybody still didn't vote or wants to change their vote, then this would be the right time.
Personally, I advise voting for Earth's Perfect Balance.
Why? My one-sided propaganda will answer that question  .
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted September 22, 2014 12:33 PM |
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AcidDragon said:
If anybody still didn't vote or wants to change their vote, then this would be the right time.
like Acidragon said now it's the time to vote for fury! thank you mate! teeheeheehee
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted September 22, 2014 12:33 PM |
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AcidDragon said:
If anybody still didn't vote or wants to change their vote, then this would be the right time.
Personally, I advise voting for Earth's Perfect Balance.
Why? My one-sided propaganda will answer that question .
Your value of tradition should favor Strength. For the tradition of the Unicorn is far greater then that of the Phoenix.
____________
Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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adriancat
Famous Hero
Protector Of The Peace
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posted September 22, 2014 12:34 PM |
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AcidDragon said:
3 Days left.
Sylanna's Fury is winning by 3 percent.
Earth's Perfect Balance is still in the game but its chances decrease with every hour.
Strength of the Forest - despite regaining a few percent - unfortunately at this point is practically out of the race.
If anybody still didn't vote or wants to change their vote, then this would be the right time.
Personally, I advise voting for Earth's Perfect Balance.
Why? My one-sided propaganda will answer that question .
How could that chicken be worth voting ? 
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted September 22, 2014 12:53 PM |
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Balance > Fury though because Fury is defunct and I'd rather NOT have H7 Sylvan turn into H5 Inferno, y'know.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted September 22, 2014 01:00 PM |
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ChrisD1 said:
it's funny how we are all sober now and in those three days we will be out for blood! can you imagine all of us in a big room discussing the line ups?
Not whitout a keg o Beer, Some good food, music and general fun
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted September 22, 2014 01:05 PM |
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Dave_Jame said:
ChrisD1 said:
it's funny how we are all sober now and in those three days we will be out for blood! can you imagine all of us in a big room discussing the line ups?
Not whitout a keg o Beer, Some good food, music and general fun
i'm a wine-er
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AcidDragon
Promising
Famous Hero
who lost his body somehow...
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posted September 22, 2014 01:23 PM |
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War-overlord said:
AcidDragon said:
If anybody still didn't vote or wants to change their vote, then this would be the right time.
Personally, I advise voting for Earth's Perfect Balance.
Why? My one-sided propaganda will answer that question .
Your value of tradition should favor Strength. For the tradition of the Unicorn is far greater then that of the Phoenix.
Actually Strength would be my second choice if Balance was last right now.
It doesn't have the Phoenix and Sprite (both iconic units), but yes - it has the Unicorn and it still retains Emerald Knights - a very interesting new creature for me. Plus - like I mentioned in the propaganda - it still has the same creature diversity as Balance.
While Sylanna's Fury doesn't convince me at all with Blade Dancers and Deer and generally more humanoid-based creatures. It's the least traditional Sylvan/Nature feel to me.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 22, 2014 01:27 PM |
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War-overlord said:
Stevie said:
Congratulations.
You disproved your "non-sentient" argument yourself. Free will means accountability, therefore Snakes are accountable for their own malice.
That does not fit Sylvan.
No. Unicorns are. Unicorns have some form of sentience.
If I intended to prove that Root Snakes were sentient, I wouldn't be speaking about Unicorns.
You were the one who put them on the same level, which I disproved.
It states specifically that Root Snakes need to be charmed first. Therefor, I did not, disprove my own point.
I did not put the Unicorn on the same level as the Snake. That was the implication of your "non-sentient" argument. Which you have now disproved with your Unicorn example. So I don't see why Unicorns would be sentient and the other fauna not. In fact, there is an entire species of snakes called the Naga that have such a higher level of sentience that they are an entire civilization.
It states specifically that snakes make visitors trip out of malice. That concludes intention, which in turn concludes at least some amount of sentience. I cannot find a reason for snakes to have such a behavior outside of vileness.
Let's just drop this. You'll believe what you want anyway.
Maybe it's better to ask Marzhin.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted September 22, 2014 01:28 PM |
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AcidDragon said:
Actually Strength would be my second choice if Balance was last right now.
It doesn't have the Phoenix and Sprite (both iconic units), but yes - it has the Unicorn and it still retains Emerald Knights - a very interesting new creature for me. Plus - like I mentioned in the propaganda - it still has the same creature diversity as Balance.
Many things can happen in 3 days.
Also, in my opinion, due to the ever-presence of the Unicorn, in terms of iconicity, trumps the combination of Phoenix & Sprite.
Edit:
Stevie said:
I did not put the Unicorn on the same level as the Snake. That was the implication of your "non-sentient" argument. Which you have now disproved with your Unicorn example. So I don't see why Unicorns would be sentient and the other fauna not.
I beg to differ.
Stevie said:
"So a snake is no more vile or malicious then a wolf or a lion, or an Unicorn". Continue the argument fully, not only where it suits your case.So if by any reason Snake's maliciousness is discarded because not being sentient then also the Unicorn follows suit, losing any attributes which we may perceive as qualities because of any prejudice for that matter, not only biblical.
It was you, who here put the Unicorn on the same level as other base animals of it not being sentient. By proving that Unicorns are sentient, I render your argument moot that if Root Snakes are not in controll of their actions, then Unicorns aren't either, by them both being animals. Thus rendering your previous argument moot, that Unicorns are debasing themselves by allying with Root Snakes, since Root Snakes are not to be blamed for their action as opposed to Unicorns.
The reason why Unicorns, despite being fauna, should be considered sentient, as opposed to any other fauna lies directly in the classification of fauna. Fauna = Animals and animals are per rule not sentient and should be assumed non-sentient unless otherwise proven. Unicorns have been proven sentient.
Stevie said:
In fact, there is an entire species of snakes called the Naga that have such a higher level of sentience that they are an entire civilization.
Naga are an Elder Race, created to serve and worship their god. They can therefor not be classified as fauna.
Stevie said:
It states specifically that snakes make visitors trip out of malice. That concludes intention, which in turn concludes at least some amount of sentience. I cannot find a reason for snakes to have such a behavior outside of vileness.
No, it states that it appears to do so. Apparently is the key word there. As it indicates that this is not a satisfactory explaination.
The argument here goes as follows: Root Snakes make people trip. Root Snakes are not sentient beings. However Root Snakes have no clear reason to make people trip, due to people not being prey for Root Snakes, which would have been a satisfactory explaination. Malice would appear an explaination, but that would contradict the Root Snakes sentience and we have no reason to assume this contradiction to be the truth on account of the Root Snakes further behavior.
Stevie said:
Maybe it's better to ask Marzhin.
If he would be so kind and able to arbitrate in this debate, I would be gratefull.
____________
Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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AcidDragon
Promising
Famous Hero
who lost his body somehow...
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posted September 22, 2014 01:44 PM |
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Well, the chances for a Unicorn are not lost if Balance wins. We know from Marzhin that the Emerald Knights can have a mount. And let me remind the Ashan Compendium excerpt:
"Elven Cavalry is mostly light cavalry, again designed for speed and maneuverability over shock power. Only the elite Unicorn Riders - the closest the Elves come to the knights of the Holy Empire - will use large shields and lances to drive their point home."
Is it a concidence that Emerald Knights have large shields, lances and are called Knights by the Holy Empire? And that they can have a mount?
Of course, their mount is surely dependant on which option wins, as I am quite sure nobody planned to have two Unicorn creatures is Strength won, but still it's a possibility.
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jhb
Famous Hero
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posted September 22, 2014 01:45 PM |
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AcidDragon said:
3 Days left.
Sylanna's Fury is winning by 3 percent.
Earth's Perfect Balance is still in the game but its chances decrease with every hour.
Strength of the Forest - despite regaining a few percent - unfortunately at this point is practically out of the race.
If anybody still didn't vote or wants to change their vote, then this would be the right time.
Personally, I advise voting for Earth's Perfect Balance.
Why? My one-sided propaganda will answer that question .
I bet if Strength was winning, the balance propaganda would be: Come Fury, we are "best friends"! Abandon your cause and join mine... yeah, right... hehehe
I bet Strength lose a reasonable sum of votes for believing they couldn't do it.
For me, Balance don't have neither Unicorns nor Deers, who would be the guardians of the grove?
And Fury won't hurt the lore with Phoenix.
But anyway, my advice is: vote for whatever you like most. And don't fall too much in propaganda. Keep your faith in the line up you love most. And then, in the last hour, you can change your vote, if you really feel like you need it.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted September 22, 2014 01:53 PM |
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AcidDragon said:
Well, the chances for a Unicorn are not lost if Balance wins. We know from Marzhin that the Emerald Knights can have a mount. And let me remind the Ashan Compendium excerpt:
"Elven Cavalry is mostly light cavalry, again designed for speed and maneuverability over shock power. Only the elite Unicorn Riders - the closest the Elves come to the knights of the Holy Empire - will use large shields and lances to drive their point home."
Is it a concidence that Emerald Knights have large shields, lances and are called Knights by the Holy Empire? And that they can have a mount?
Of course, their mount is surely dependant on which option wins, as I am quite sure nobody planned to have two Unicorn creatures is Strength won, but still it's a possibility.
I know this. Which is why I would consider Balance if Strength proves to be a lost cause.
But it is not the case that Emerald Knight can have a mount. They might be rewritten to have one. That was never originally planned, but Marzhin appears to have liked the suggestion and has said to look into the possibility.
____________
Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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AcidDragon
Promising
Famous Hero
who lost his body somehow...
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posted September 22, 2014 02:07 PM |
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jhb said:
I bet if Strength was winning, the balance propaganda would be: Come Fury, we are "best friends"! Abandon your cause and join mine... yeah, right... hehehe
I bet Strength lose a reasonable sum of votes for believing they couldn't do it.
Believe whatever you like.
But yes, Strength did lose a lot of votes. In fact both at Heroes Community and in Acid Cave till this day Strength is in FIRST place (and Fury is LAST) in the polls. It also was in first place in the official vote for some time. It would have won if not for the possibility of changing votes (or cheating but this is yet to be proven).
It's just that I don't believe Strength is able to recover in 3 days, seeing it's in third place for well over a week now.
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jhb
Famous Hero
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posted September 22, 2014 02:33 PM |
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Edited by jhb at 14:36, 22 Sep 2014.
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AcidDragon said:
jhb said:
I bet if Strength was winning, the balance propaganda would be: Come Fury, we are "best friends"! Abandon your cause and join mine... yeah, right... hehehe
I bet Strength lose a reasonable sum of votes for believing they couldn't do it.
Believe whatever you like.
But yes, Strength did lose a lot of votes. In fact both at Heroes Community and in Acid Cave till this day Strength is in FIRST place (and Fury is LAST) in the polls. It also was in first place in the official vote for some time. It would have won if not for the possibility of changing votes (or cheating but this is yet to be proven).
It's just that I don't believe Strength is able to recover in 3 days, seeing it's in third place for well over a week now.
People can change their minds, right? It wasn't an easy decision for me, I bet it wasn't easy for a lot more ppl too. I was between Strength and Fury since I first saw the lines few days ago, and btw I discovered about H7 being made thursday (18/09/2014).
If people weren't allowed to change the votes, probably the majority would have waited more to think twice about the vote.
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