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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted October 03, 2014 09:19 PM |
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Kimarous said:
But... Pit Lords, man! Pit Lords! 
I see your Pitlords and I raise Minotaurs.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted October 03, 2014 09:21 PM |
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Galaad said:
You bring here an interesting point. I see it in a complete different manner. You see, for me, Ashan and Enroth/Antagarish are both tied together by the franchise. Meaning I see both lores part of a main one : HoMM. That's my way of seeing it. Bringing the franchise into a new world isn't something I'm against, unless it's so much at the expense of the previous one.
Remember the writer has all the power to make everything connect and can twist all he wants. It is a big responsibility to create a new world for an already existent and successful game, and it should match better than this imo.
This is why I strongly disagree with you here.
ashan is very far from being "so much at the expense of enroth"
the majority of the creatures are the same, most factions are the same, heroes made a crossover, so what are you talking about?
i think you are exaggerating.
Galaad said:
Regarding strategy, need I say more except that after 15 years of playing H3 I still discover new ways to play it.. 
There is, to me, another strong element of the franchise : Atmosphere.
Atmosphere is defined by graphics and lore. The world, the environment you dive into. Maybe it is different for you, but I see a big difference between NWC and Ubi's atmosphere, and I always grieved that. Not that one is better than another, just that there are not expressing the same thing. Factions as you point you, shouldn't change that much. For example, I always associated Sylvan with Nature and Mythology, and I was furious mad when it got replaced by generic elves. That is, effect of new lore affecting old one instead of improving it. I hope you get my going.
Now I start to think the best remaining two factions for H7 would have been Fortress and Sanctuary : have something fresh without altering things from the past for the greater sadness of many.
Then we get proper older towns in expansions. Old fans happy, new fans happy, business working.
the thing is that we changed universe. for better or for worse.
the new universe will have new atmosphere. Its own atmosphere. because it's an entirely different universe. It's not a sequel to enroth story-wise. so the new lore cannot affect the old one. it just can't. yet they busted their @sses to bring us a feel of enroth. and they are doing that without copying enroth and destroying their new universe. they are trying to be consistent.
so this escalates to the question of whether they should change universe or not. that's another thing to debate.
so heroes 3 will always be at your disposal i guess. use it.
this is not enroth anymore. gone... you can't have dungeon(h3) again. but you can have dungeon(h7) with a nostalgic feel(minotaurs,evil eyes,black dragons and manticores) and that's it. if you want the exact same thing as heroes 3, look at your game library.
so yes atmosphere is a core element too. ashan has it own and i kinda like it. that does not mean i dislike th enroth one(god forbid).
but you just can't mash those two together more than they already did. that's it. you just can't expect this to be the heroes 3 part 2. so changes will come. some familiar (hello minotaur) and some not(dark elves).
dark elves seem sh*ty to you? well that's ashan. too bad. you always have a choice tho
so again what are you talking about?
P.S.
new players come to join every now and then, and i can assure you some of them don't like being the "new kids that don't know about the good ol' days" and they certainly want to build their own nostalgia. not to continue yours.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted October 03, 2014 09:30 PM |
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Edited by ChrisD1 at 21:32, 03 Oct 2014.
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War-overlord said:
ChrisD1 said:
lucky you, this campaign will not about the demons!
so how about we see demons as just another race and not in their usual role? maybe see some of their internal affairs and their relations with other factions OUT of the eclipse? that would be fresh and inferno's line up is something to expect!
What?
If Inferno wins, some part will be about Demons.
Also:
Spymaster said:
Make no mistake however: Demons are not sympathetic, misunderstood, secretly heroic or in any other way redeemable. They are embodiments of Chaos, ravening monsters that would burn the world to a cinder just to watch it burn.
so what if some part will be about inferno?it will be about inferno as much as it will be about sylvan,stronghold, academy,haven, necrpolis.
this time everyone will tell the story of their factions. so it will be about everyone. maybe you don't like inferno and that's super cool, but that's has nothing to do with the faction not being cool and fresh like the others.
In the end the highlight is haven and it's haven vs haven.
it was said that if inferno makes it, it won't be about the eclipse.
so i am curious to what these guys do when there is no eclipse.
the fact that they want to watch the world burn is their desire but i am pretty sure they will have to do lots of other stuff before that, and have other goals before that. now that's fresh for inferno standards.
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fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
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posted October 03, 2014 09:38 PM |
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Galaad said:
fuChris, while I appreciate your love for campaigns and agree with you regarding the writing, I believe the bigger argument here is being able to play single scenarios and random maps over and over again without getting bored of it while the campaign is mostly a one-time thing.
I have to quote myself here.
Quote:
And frankly, if they can not come up with a better story then I hope they simply stop trying and spend their time adding the missing factions and polishing the multiplayer. That is all people will remember of it anyway.
And I disagree that the campaign is a one-time thing. It should not be. A well written campaign is like a good book. You put it down, but you know that sooner or later you are going to read it again and it is still going to sit on your shelf 10-20 years from now.
Guess which game I resinstalled for the 5th time when H7 was announced.
Heroes4.(cos H3 is never uninstalled you silly  ). Good stories make you feel part of the world and you will want to revisit them.
This would not be a problem if we had more games like Dark Messiah which carried the plot, but Dark Messiah is not the flagship of the Heroes franchise, M&M:Heroes 7 is. And as a flagship it does not have the luxury to come with half-assed story. It really is the future of the franchise that I am worried about.
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"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 03, 2014 09:42 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 21:43, 03 Oct 2014.
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War-overlord said:
I'd rather not. I agree with Alci that it'd be refreshing not to have them around for once.
Then don't you ever say anything about "overused Eclipse plot" when you've denied such an opportunity to have something else. Think about the last time you've asked such an intriguing question about demons. How will they play if they can't physically exist? That's one mystery you'll forever regret not trying to find out its answer.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted October 03, 2014 09:44 PM |
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I regret nothing.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 03, 2014 09:46 PM |
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War-overlord said:
I regret nothing.
You will.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted October 03, 2014 09:46 PM |
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War-overlord said:
I regret nothing.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted October 03, 2014 09:49 PM |
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Stevie said:
Then don't you ever say anything about "overused Eclipse plot" when you've denied such an opportunity to have something else. Think about the last time you've asked such an intriguing question about demons. How will they play if they can't physically exist? That's one mystery you'll forever regret not trying to find out its answer.
lol man, you spin it as if it's guaranteed to be some epic awesome tale of intrigue to rival Howard or Moorcock
bet you it's like this: the counciler is a random human/elf cultist, their story is set during an eclipse or in Sheogh, and the demons get summoned with some lame handwave in the final campaign if they need to be
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 03, 2014 09:53 PM |
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ChrisD1 said:
even my dead grandma heard marzhin say that if the demons win it won't be about an eclipse.
This cannot be stated often enough.
Also, 55% - 45%. There is hope.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted October 03, 2014 10:05 PM |
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yeah, Sheogh it is then
sorry but we've seen what happens when they're forced to get around the rules of their own universe before, and it sucks more often than not lol, I wouldn't willingly vote for that just to see what happens
dead characters come out of the grave, factions that shouldn't be there start appearing, lore gets retconned or messed, and everyone applauds and hands Ubi the Pullitzer Prize for fiction (not really lol)
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted October 03, 2014 10:13 PM |
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ChrisD1 said:
the thing is that we changed universe.
I'm pretty much aware of that. All my point is about that..
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 03, 2014 10:14 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 22:15, 03 Oct 2014.
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verriker said:
yeah, Sheogh it is then
sorry but we've seen what happens when they're forced to get around the rules of their own universe before, and it sucks more often than not lol, I wouldn't willingly vote for that just to see what happens
dead characters come out of the grave, factions that shouldn't be there start appearing, lore gets retconned or messed, and everyone applauds and hands Ubi the Pullitzer Prize for fiction (not really lol)
Oh. Because keeping the status quo is anything than that. It's hit or miss, but as long as you don't swing, it's a miss for sure.
And I have serious doubts that we'll get an entire campaign focused on demon infighting in Sheogh. You don't actually believe that, do you?
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lokdron
Famous Hero
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posted October 03, 2014 10:15 PM |
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I am just saying people constantly said that people were tired of demon eclipse plots and demons smashing things and not much else. We are given the chance to have something different.
Units are not guaranteed here.
They know the complaints with inferno and looking at this game they want to correct past mistakes look at haven look at the story entries posted on the website and the campaign format change. We know they are correcting the problem with inferno story.
Marzhin pretty much stated it. People said they want something different they are giving that and yet people aren't taking it.
Please guys give inferno a chance here. :<
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted October 03, 2014 10:17 PM |
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Stevie said:
And I have serious doubts that we'll get an entire campaign focused on demon infighting in Sheogh. You don't actually believe that, do you?
With Demons not being able to exist on Ashan for any considerable length of time and it being very very hard to build an INFERNO faction out of just succubi and cultists, what's there to do?
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted October 03, 2014 10:18 PM |
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lokdron said:
Please guys give inferno a chance here. :<
I think Inferno has good chances winning this poll. I'm waiting to see more information about the factions though..
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lokdron
Famous Hero
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posted October 03, 2014 10:19 PM |
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Galaad said:
lokdron said:
Please guys give inferno a chance here. :<
I think Inferno has good chances winning this poll. I'm waiting to see more information about the factions though..
It will take a miracle and a snowball of luck for inferno to win.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted October 03, 2014 10:21 PM |
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lokdron said:
Galaad said:
lokdron said:
Please guys give inferno a chance here. :<
I think Inferno has good chances winning this poll. I'm waiting to see more information about the factions though..
It will take a miracle and a snowball of luck for inferno to win.
Or new forms of cheating.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 03, 2014 10:24 PM |
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War-overlord said:
Stevie said:
And I have serious doubts that we'll get an entire campaign focused on demon infighting in Sheogh. You don't actually believe that, do you?
With Demons not being able to exist on Ashan for any considerable length of time and it being very very hard to build an INFERNO faction out of just succubi and cultists, what's there to do?
I have no clue. But, do you think that the devs would really propose Inferno as a viable option if the limitations would be so dire? No way. That's why it's all that exciting in the first place. From what we know, it's indeed impossible for demons to organize themselves into a faction outside Sheogh for a considerable amount of time. But I'm sure the devs are aware of that, and they're willing to give us Inferno regardless of those circumstances. I personally expect to find out how demons discovered a way to resist outside Sheogh.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted October 03, 2014 10:25 PM |
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Stevie said:
And I have serious doubts that we'll get an entire campaign focused on demon infighting in Sheogh. You don't actually believe that, do you?
them's the breaks man,
either they're stuck with a dull campaign in Sheogh or the elemental planes or something, or they gotta break the rules of their fiction which is the very definition of bad writing
the only other option I can see would be a plot after Dark Messiah if Sareth releases the demons, but good luck telling historical stories set in the distant future lol
I dunno, I would just want to be sure that the plot has a sensible foundation and setup in the world, and not be just one big contrived retcon, before trumpeting that the Inferno campaign will be so great
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