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Avonu
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
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posted October 09, 2014 12:05 PM |
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Edited by Avonu at 12:13, 09 Oct 2014.
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Main Dungeon problem in H6 was: "Too much purple!", not line-up or desing over all. And we have seen Dungeon units after H6 - in MMX, where, yes there were purple elves, evil eyes, faceless or butterfly dragons, but also there were no purple manticores and no purple minotaurs.
See them yourself
EDIT:
Quote:
"which color is better"
pink 
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"When someone desires information, they come to me."
"Details are everything."
Pipiru piru piru pipiru pi!
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DarkLord
Supreme Hero
Fear me..
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posted October 09, 2014 12:08 PM |
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Edited by DarkLord at 12:09, 09 Oct 2014.
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you guys keep pointing out the too much purple,
while its been pretty much confirmed by Marzhin that dungeon WON'T be like that anymore!
meaning you should start focusing on faction itself
rather than discuss "which color is better"
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dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
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posted October 09, 2014 05:43 PM |
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So I read again Inferno blog post.
If I understand correctly only two things can happen that allow demon to stay in "our" plane after eclipse:
1. They consume magical artefacts or Dragonblood crystals in such quantities that it always attracts attention and they are swiftly delt with or
2. Wizard can temporarily summon a Demon to Ashan for power of forbidden knowledge at the cost of his very soul.
So... what we have here is either story of demon warband that managed to find and consume enough crystals and/or artefacts to stay RIGHT AFTER eclipse and then were routed by suspicious people or ONE demon that was temporary summoned to answer some questions or give power to now soulless mage (I guess its only one time deal then).
I fail to see in either case how can they build a single city and even worse recruit new forces from now closed another plane under these constraints. This will get even more ridiculous if there are two or more inferno castles on the map.
All this inferno lore is so skewed, stretched and warped to allow them to stay in our plane to avoid another overused eclipse story but it still doesn't get us very far.
Look how forced things need to be to even make them an option for a race.
Inferno is sole reason why Heroes always had unimaginative repetitive story about eclipses, they bring nothing new or exciting to the table and should be finally left out Heroes like they deserved long time ago.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 09, 2014 05:51 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 17:51, 09 Oct 2014.
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And Void ripples.
In-game, you collect resources for your kingdom (economy) + Demons can open gates to summon allies (recruitment). Reduced that "skewed, stretched and warped" lore to a mere sentence.
Still linking Inferno to Eclipse, when it's confirmed there won't be one.
There is, literally, no problem at all.
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Avonu
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
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posted October 09, 2014 05:51 PM |
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Oh, they can also used cracks in fabrics of reality which were created by use of Void Magic (as in Heroes Online).
I really don't know why Marzhin didn't mention this... just like he didn't know that or maybe Void erased these memories from him.
____________
"When someone desires information, they come to me."
"Details are everything."
Pipiru piru piru pipiru pi!
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dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
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posted October 09, 2014 06:01 PM |
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Stevie said:
And Void ripples.
In-game, you collect resources for your kingdom (economy) + Demons can open gates to summon allies (recruitment). Reduced that "skewed, stretched and warped" lore to a mere sentence.
Still linking Inferno to Eclipse, when it's confirmed there won't be one.
There is, literally, no problem at all.
Oh of course there is one more thing left out.. there need to be void ripples to support weak lore. That seventh dragon that sacrificed himself to make prison for Demons sure left a lot of holes for them to escape. I wonder why there are no inferno towns in our plane all the time if there are so many options to escape and those portals are so easily made.
Even then why would demon leader with limited resources and time bring core creature from another plane? Wouldn't it be smartest to bring most powerfull creatures you can afford?
And I was referring to past Heroes that were trapped by eclipse story just to include inferno.
If you don't see how obviously forced entire thing is there is nothing that I can say so you can acknowledge there is giant problem with inferno.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 09, 2014 06:38 PM |
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Dude, Demons can exist in Ashan because of gathering resources and gating ability. Where's the problem?
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Avonu
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
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posted October 09, 2014 06:43 PM |
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Lore
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"When someone desires information, they come to me."
"Details are everything."
Pipiru piru piru pipiru pi!
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dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
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posted October 09, 2014 06:49 PM |
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Problem is they gather same amount of resources as any other faction that doesn't need to consume large quantities just to stay in this plane.
And if its that simple why they invade only when there is eclipse. When you are at war you bring as many resources as you can the minute you establish foothold. If they can go through on so many occasions why there are no inferno towns all over Ashan all the time if their only need are some resources and gate.
What kind of silly prison let its prisoners leave at that rate? And thats even when its NOT weakened? Same amount of demons leave otherworldly prison every week as any other town has weekly growth.. cmon
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted October 09, 2014 07:00 PM |
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Having Demons in H7 because "they eat Dragonblood Crystals" is more forced than H6 purple minotaurs, lol.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted October 09, 2014 07:02 PM |
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you know, I would almost prefer if it was an eclipse story, sure it would be a rehash but at least it would actually make sense lol
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted October 09, 2014 07:05 PM |
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Don't worry, he got us covered 
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 09, 2014 07:09 PM |
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dark-whisperer said:
Problem is they gather same amount of resources as any other faction that doesn't need to consume large quantities just to stay in this plane.
And if its that simple why they invade only when there is eclipse. When you are at war you bring as many resources as you can the minute you establish foothold. If they can go through on so many occasions why there are no inferno towns all over Ashan all the time if all they need is some resources and gate.
What kind of silly prison let its prisoners leave at that rate when its not weakened? Same amount of demons leave otherworldly prison every week as any other town has weekly growth.. cmon
As I said to JJ, you think in terms of actual gameplay mechanics and not in lore terms.
From a lore point of view, there is no inconsistency with demons being able to sustain their existence in Ashan. Period.
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Neraus
Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
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posted October 09, 2014 07:13 PM |
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Storm-Giant said:
Having Demons in H7 because "they eat Dragonblood Crystals" is more forced than H6 purple minotaurs, lol.
Likewise elves taking mushrooms to not go insane.
I actually like this idea of them being parasites to the world, every faction struggles to obtain these resources and then daemons arrive to consume them.
If not a threat it is a major annoyance for everyone, also that's only if there are only pure daemons, we aren't taking into account succubi and incubi, so we got the agents covered.
Until now I have been satisfied with their ideas, even though I'd like some other details that would really make them true daemons.
As of now, we must wait until the community gives its verdict, of course I hope that Inferno wins.
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted October 09, 2014 07:15 PM |
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I take it Dragonblood crystals aren't as rare as previously mentioned then.
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dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
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posted October 09, 2014 07:18 PM |
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Stevie said:
From a lore point of view, there is no inconsistency with demons being able to sustain their existence in Ashan. Period.
What?
So lore goes something like... If demon that escaped through frequent void ripple can find some crystals it can build a city and bring more demons anytime. Sometimes there are several demon cities in one week radius.
You know that eclipse thing. It's cool, but overrated. Only thing that stopped demons from pouring out from gates is because they like to give fair chance to other races.
Game doesn't exist outside of lore, whatever happens in game must be in lore before. Why would you even make lore when its so obviously broken in the very game that has been built on foundation of that lore?
Dark elves eating mushrooms is flavor text. It just adds a bit of personality to them, but this nonsense is at the core of one faction existence in the game.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted October 09, 2014 07:18 PM |
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I have been blessed with a revelation, all thanks to the wonderfull people of Extra Credits.
I would like to ask you to watch two videos, which explain the basics of Video-game Villain Design. Please do watch the videos, the point I would try to debate relies heavy on you understanding the concepts these videos teach.
This one
And
This other one
Have you watched them, Good! Sorry to take up such time, but this was necesary.
Inferno's Problem is that they are a Mechanics Villain. They have no motivation, they are simply there to throw their army at you because evil.
But, due to them being playable in the campaign, they are inevitably thrust into the role of the Narative Villain. And there they struggle, as opposed to every other faction. Dungeon and Necropolis can very well be evil, but they have a reason for doing so. Every other faction can fill the role of antagonist, even if they are not evil, because their interests conflict with yours. Inferno simply wants to destroy the world just because they are unsympathetic irredeemable evil mosters. There is no misunderstanding or loss of controll.
Don't get me wrong, as Mechanics Villains, they work and they work good. But you never get to play Mechanics Villains. And not giving Inferno a campaign would solve this problem, but I doubt that this will be acceptable. The campaign is and will always be the narative of the game, but the role of Narrative Villian is not what Inferno was constructed to be.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted October 09, 2014 07:23 PM |
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War-overlord said:
Inferno simply wants to destroy the world just because they are unsympathetic irredeemable evil mosters.
...
I am the demons... 
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 09, 2014 08:02 PM |
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I think that Inferno is a combination of Mechanics Villain and Narrative Villain. And It's clearly not the only villain out there.
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted October 09, 2014 08:05 PM |
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War-overlord said:
I have been blessed with a revelation, all thanks to the wonderfull people of Extra Credits.
I would like to ask you to watch two videos, which explain the basics of Video-game Villain Design. Please do watch the videos, the point I would try to debate relies heavy on you understanding the concepts these videos teach.
This one
And
This other one
Have you watched them, Good! Sorry to take up such time, but this was necesary.
Inferno's Problem is that they are a Mechanics Villain. They have no motivation, they are simply there to throw their army at you because evil.
But, due to them being playable in the campaign, they are inevitably thrust into the role of the Narative Villain. And there they struggle, as opposed to every other faction. Dungeon and Necropolis can very well be evil, but they have a reason for doing so. Every other faction can fill the role of antagonist, even if they are not evil, because their interests conflict with yours. Inferno simply wants to destroy the world just because they are unsympathetic irredeemable evil mosters. There is no misunderstanding or loss of controll.
Don't get me wrong, as Mechanics Villains, they work and they work good. But you never get to play Mechanics Villains. And not giving Inferno a campaign would solve this problem, but I doubt that this will be acceptable. The campaign is and will always be the narative of the game, but the role of Narrative Villian is not what Inferno was constructed to be.
That's why story concerning Kha-Beleth would be the best. He is not a guy who just wants to kill everyone on his way but his main goal is to conquer the world. He does not only throw away legions of demons (although that's his main tactic) but he does it through stealth and deception (just like Dungeon, maybe he used to be a Faceless...?). He is a good material for villain, he just needs a little bit more developmemt. No wonder he used to be Tears hero in MM:H6.
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This thread is pages long: 
