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| Thread: Heroes of War and Craft |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted February 07, 2015 06:20 PM |
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Are you really saying all dead spiders, all the green acid, all the undead queens, and all necromancer pyramids are the same because the share the same base? If that's so then i dont have anything else to talk about you, except, what do you pretend to accomplish?
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted February 07, 2015 06:48 PM |
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To be fair, Warcraft Undead are not so much spider based as Ashan, but it is one of their aspects, and Ubi clearly copied that and made it to be Necropolis's main theme.
Everyone who claims Ashan is not based on Azeroth is puting him/her self in undefendable position. I have nothing agains any one, but (B)Lizzard (yeah I came with this on my own  ) is right I'm afraid. Similarities are just to many. Wheater you actualy like that or not however, is a different issue alltogether.
Heroes is by no means only one game which does that btw. Loads of other modern fantasy games copy Warcraft style, some to bigger and some to lesser extent. Even AoW 3 has some elements of it, however it is more subtle. Not only that, I belive one could even argue Warcraft popularized cartoonish (comic book realy) stlye in fantasy games in modern times, because previous the trend was to be as realistic as possible.
Lastly I would point out, that Vampire (while very similar to Arthas) is to me even more similar to Blood Elf Death Knight, that became playable as of Wrath of Lich King expansion of WoW. Like even armor. Arthas has much bulkier armor and closed helmet, but Blood Elf DK ? it IS the Ashan vampire. There's hardly any diference. Now It may confuse you because of the fact, that players can die their hair and change to diferent looking armor set, but you would be surprised how many "Ashan Vampire" players I met, when I played WoW back in the day.
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted February 07, 2015 06:54 PM |
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First of all, I am getting tired of providing arguments while you provide none (I have read your previous answers again). You are just asking questions, nothing else. Where are your arguments that defend your point of view? Questioning will prove nothing. What material can you offer us to prove us wrong?
I'll quote you, and I'll also put some emphasis so that you see what we are trying to do here.
Quote:
Other than the Vampire, which does look too much like the warcraft Death Knight hero, post H6 Ashan aesthetics are completely different
LW and I pointed out that this is not true.
Quote:
it's just that that they're done so differently to the point that calling the Heroes one a ripoff of the WC one because they shared SOME of the inspirations is simply invalid (except when talking about the Vampire knight)
They are not different, they are identical to say the least. LW went one step further than I did and compared many things that I didn't mention. If you analysed carefully what he and I shown you, you would understand.
Quote:
Are you really saying all dead spiders, all the green acid, all the undead queens, and all necromancer pyramids are the same because the share the same base?
Just what I already said. You provide no arguments but questions: Is this really it? Are you sure this? Do you want to tell that? ARGUMENTS!!!
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rodaff
Tavern Dweller
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posted February 07, 2015 07:27 PM |
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 Just by looking at the images you can see how much they copied from WoW. The vampire, the lich, the awful green color, the spider fetish, the town buildings, it's disgusting!
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 07, 2015 07:32 PM |
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You don't need to bother more Sleep, LW constructed the case very well, comparing the games to demonstrate his points.
Here are hard facts:
- toxic green liquid transforms humans into undead in both games;
- heavy spider symbolism is present in both games;
- there's highly similar architecture in both games;
- vampire model looks very much like Arthas;
People can say that those are not true or whatever, but the evidence is still there. Those who are true to themselves and not driven by a sentiment of fanboyism can see it clearly.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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cleglaw
Famous Hero
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posted February 07, 2015 07:47 PM |
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@Sandro400
dude how can you even deny this? its right in here in front of our own eyes.
side note: architect here. its copy/paste without doubt. even the floating crystal got copied, so much lolz.
"lets make it like warcraft maybe we can sell millions!!!!111one"
brilliant idea from ubilimbic.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted February 07, 2015 10:24 PM |
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awesome post LizardWarrior
stubborn naysayers, it should be pretty clear even now to the most diehard fan that Erwin is a big fan of Warcraft, I think that's the series he really wishes he could direct lol
just looking at the scale of copypasting here, normally I'd be angry at the loss of this series' identity and say burn Ashan in flames,
but with the guy who originally coined that phrase going around insisting that Ashan is here to stay, somehow I have trouble bothering to care
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted February 07, 2015 10:30 PM |
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@Lizard
I decided to not answer you via quotes - seems that my point would only be diluted if I stick to that way. And yeah, as I said to you, there's nothing personal in this discussion - it's just my opinion that your theory is not so gorgoeus as some members here tend to think. We can also keep our discussion fun 
Well, first of all, as I tried to tell you with tropes, if something looks similar, it doesn't mean one ripped from another. It's... idk, simple? There were multiple discoveries in real world (if you're worried by timeframe, just read about radio invention). And btw, did you try to write something? I mean, fanfics, short stories etc. There was a time when it was my hobby. While I openly acknowledged that I ripped some ideas and characters from another sources, on multiple occasions readers pointed to me that other events/characters/names/etc looked very similar to other fantasy worlds, but there was no connection, I made them myself and never heard about them. I bet if we have writers here some of them will support me on this. This + my statement (which you think hurts me more than you) "You see common elements because you want to see them" give us some good idea - similarity is in the eye of the beholder. As I told you, I can draw parallels between Heroes and Pokemons too ^^ can't prove that a rip-off was actually done unless Ubi confesses, obviously. And afaik presumption of innocence still works in majority of countries 
As you deduced, I really like tropes - they explain many things happening right here and now. Especially that majority of trops used in this situation were established before WoW's rise. Arthas wasn't a WoW invention (I mean "vampire-knight"). I certainly agree with you that Heroes ripped from other worlds, but WoW? I don't think so.
But ofc WoW popularity could have created some "trends" in fantasy worlds. And there's a huge difference between following trends and ripping directly. And we have no proof that Erwan likes WoW.
Funny things aside, but your post surely was taken by some people seriously. And I don't think that reigniting their hate at the moment when things seem to calm down a little is a right thing to do
P.S.: Ashan Necro is a combination of classic Gothic, Egyptian, Mesoamerican etc, but with the dominance of Eg./Meso. It's seen even in townscreen - sorry, military post screen - (majority of muildings on spider legs, the tower on top of the temple). And mesoamerican + egyptian/sumarian brings spectacular result artistically wise, unlike any other combination. In place of Spider we could have had Snake Cult or Platypus Cult, I'll give you that. But Ubi chose Spider. Case solved I guess
Ashan Dragon-Gods also wage war with each other. Demon blood keyword gives way to experiment keyword. See, those 2 are primary examples of "you see similarities where you want to", because if whole Undead thing does look similar, those two points are far-fetched.
P.P.S.: Regarding DSII I meant Shulva city, filled with toxic green Undead and statues. Not that the city itself is tosic green (though dark green).
And the last thing, but very important one.
Do you really think that after almost getting themselves sued by GW Ubi will repeat the same error, but now cause the ire of Blizzard?
Now to @Stevie.
You never cease to amuse me. DisIII Necrotown is a large spiderish honeycomb (yes, it's not spider bulidings, but the whole town which resembles insect's dwelling) covered in webs and shining with toxic green. Not only support buildings, but also Ghost's which looks like a... spider. Now, I never said that DisIII Necro is as color-coded as H6 Necro, but in terms of units - more greenish than H7 Necro. Mind you, N7 Necro is mostly white, green is only in the eyes of Vampires and Liches. And in townscreen, where it's equal to honeycomb' shimmering.
About Arthas-Nosferatu... you seem like a Dis fan. Let's just presume that you forgot about Hero-Nosferatu and never return to this point. And yeah, Ghosts (not Shadows) do have spider legs behind. Many units have webs on them.
And yeah, dude, if I really wanted to compare Heroes and Dis, I only need to compare H5's and DisIII's storylines.
@Others
I highly urge everyone to remain civil to one another. There's no point in throwing just opinions. Look at me and LW - even if we do not agree on many points, we (at least try to) give real, constructive arguments and don't fall to ad hominem argument, remain (at least I hope so) mutually respective. Buuuut... nevermind, no one's gonna listen to me anyway.
What I like to add is that this situation in chess is called "pat", or stalemate. Unless we have Erwan's word on it the "rip-off fact" can neither be prooved nor disposed.
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted February 07, 2015 10:32 PM |
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I ask because i just cant believe you see the same.
The namtarus and the nerubians are undead spider centaurs, thats where the resemblance ends. Their backstory is different, their role is different, and other than being half spider their appareance is different. You'd make a better point saying the ripped off Lolth.
Same goes for the architecture. They are stepped pyramids but they look different, different colours and ornamentation. I frankly dont know with what can i compare the warcraft necropoli while the ashan one looks like an egyptian/mesopotamiam city made with black stone. Not to mention that while the nerubian influence extends to all buildings, the only buildings that look remotely mesopotamian are the necropolis building and the ziggurat. The spider legs you keep bringing out are supposed to be snowing bones
Green isnt even the main undead colour, its purple. I'll concede the use of green fluid as defense because idk wtf are supposed to be the WC (when used by the scourge) and the green fluid spilling from the Necropolis im H7 but like i said several times, i think the reason is the green = venom/poison/acid/toxic association not Warcraft.
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted February 07, 2015 11:03 PM |
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@Sandro400
Quote:
And btw, did you try to write something? I mean, fanfics, short stories etc. There was a time when it was my hobby. While I openly acknowledged that I ripped some ideas and characters from another sources, on multiple occasions readers pointed to me that other events/characters/names/etc looked very similar to other fantasy worlds, but there was no connection, I made them myself and never heard about them. I bet if we have writers here some of them will support me on this.
I had similar experience years ago.  But then again, it is one thing to develop the same ideas at different parts of the world, when there is no way to know that someone is thinking the same way as you, while it's another thing to develop your own idea while there is a large possibility that to find out that someone has done something like that. If I am not mistaken, WC3 came in 2002 and WOW came in 2004. Heroes 5 came in 2006, while H6 came in 2011. At this point Heroes and WC franchises were already known. And it is impossible that one didn't know about the other, because we are living in the age where information circles the globe in few seconds. Add to that, that there is a span of few years between them and the fact that both franchises belong to the same (gaming) industry although different branches - TBS, RTS, MMO. It would be totally different story if they both came in the same year. Then you can say that they didn't know what other was creating, but there would be doubts, nonetheless.
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted February 07, 2015 11:24 PM |
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Ummm thing is, I would belive atleast, that many people understood that HoMM from 5 onwards copied some elements from Warcraft, way before Lizard made this post
It's not like he's discovering new stuff, that is so out there, that noone considered it LOL. Even I made joke about it on page ... 412 of general thread, just scroll down to my dialoge post. And I was defenitley not the first to point this out. People have been talking about WoW - Ashan similarities for years. Lizard only pointed out similarities in one comprehensive and bloody hilarious post that ... has lots of truth to it.
Also, the radio thing. You know back in the day there was no Internet right? I know it's hard to immagine but belive me, this was the case The inventors of that time didn't know one another, and ofc they sometimes came to similar conclusions on diferent locations of the planet. I find it somewhat hard to immagine that Ubi, who is one of top gaming companies, that has contacts with almost all other big companies and does market reaserch, and is continualy monitoring competition, with, yes, help from internet, would not have heard about World of freaking Warcraft, which is one of the most, if not THE most recognizable and popular games in existence in last ... well 10 years.
Not to mention it was developed by Blizzard ... yes they are not exactly indie company you know. If Erwan is fan of their stuff or not is realy irelevant, what is important is that well ... he most likely knew who they are prior to thinking of Ashan. He also most likely knew what their games are about prior to immagining Ashan. He also most likely knew what is popular curently and what are the trends in modern fantasy games. But let's leave poor Erwan alone. Whole Ubisoft knows this things. They are not some foolish ignorant upstarts who don't know any better (or are they ).
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted February 07, 2015 11:51 PM |
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GenyaArikado said:
The namtarus and the nerubians are undead spider centaurs, thats where the resemblance ends. Their backstory is different, their role is different, and other than being half spider their appareance is different.
They also happen to be closely linked with the undead, but you also don't read the main post, where I state both the facts, among many others. The fact is that spiders are a major motif in the undead structure, even if their background story is different. And you don't got only spiders, but many other common elements too.
GenyaArikado said:
Same goes for the architecture. They are stepped pyramids but they look different, different colours and ornamentation. I frankly dont know with what can i compare the warcraft necropoli while the ashan one looks like an egyptian/mesopotamiam city made with black stone. Not to mention that while the nerubian influence extends to all buildings, the only buildings that look remotely mesopotamian are the necropolis building and the ziggurat. The spider legs you keep bringing out are supposed to be snowing bones
So, you got undead and spiders AND Sumerian/Egyptian architecture on the top. Can't you see that, there isn't only one common element, not two, but THREE. Oh right, if they had even the same color that would be plain ridiculous (not like it isn't already), even if they had, you'd still try to argue how different are they . Also it's not only the ziggurat and necropolis, we also got the tomb of relics, crypt and the graveyard at a certain degree. Yep, they are supposed to be bones, finger bones, but they also look extremely similar to spider legs, because they are segmented, and putting them on top of buildings is totally going to resemble Warcraft structures.
GenyaArikado said:
Green isnt even the main undead colour, its purple. I'll concede the use of green fluid as defense because idk wtf are supposed to be the WC (when used by the scourge) and the green fluid spilling from the Necropolis im H7 but like i said several times, i think the reason is the green = venom/poison/acid/toxic association not Warcraft.
Yep purple, like the purple they just used on the H7 Necropolis creatures or on H5 alternative upgrades? Exactly. Also let's not forget that green is also a major color for the WoW undead, they can have 2 dominant colors, H7 Haven for example has red and golden yellow. Also the green fluid/spider venom is used as a defense because they filled their damn moat with it.
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted February 08, 2015 12:45 AM |
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Their architecture is based in the spider people's, but other than the arachnid wing spider imagery isnt really prominent. Bones and skulls are more their thing
Frankly i believe the reason behind the sumerian heroes necropolis was the implication that these people came from the desert arabian looking mages. Irl the sumerian style obviously came before the arabian mesquites but the pyramidal and square figures of the structures fit perfectly an Order obsessed society with Trascendence ideals. Not to mention the irl obsession of the egyptians with death and afterlife to the point the king of Underworld was a god of agriculture.
As i see them, the crypt and graveyard look pretty gothic to me. The tomb looks a bit egyptian but thats already pushing it. Yeah finger bones can look like spider legs, doesnt change the fact that the spider imagery is because they choose to make an spider obssesed society, not because WC did it.
Had they made dark magic red in H6 we would have had a red and green necropolis, they didnt so we have purple and green necropolis. Or you think they made dark magic purple on purpose to make the H7 necro have the same color? I dont talk about H5 because most of that was a WarHammer ripoff indeed (looking at you dungeon)
I end this post with the same i said before: the use of similar base elements doesnt mean ripoff. I wont reply further since its obvious your mind is set and i'm not one for cyclical debates, but you're wrong nonetheless. And again i question you: What do you intend? Do you wanna go back to the H3 look?.
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted February 08, 2015 03:36 AM |
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@Sleeping_Sun - I, for example, never played neither WoW nor WH. Yes-yes, believe me. Never. And before all that rage on Heroes fansites I only knew that WoW exists, nothing more. I'm almost sure I'm not the only one. So yes, it's completely possible even nowadays to create something on your own that looks similar to the past.
One more thing - we, ficwrtiers, can create whatever we want. Rip-off anything we want. We don't have financial profits from it. But companies do. And I doubt that Ubi doesn't understand that if they just rip-off anything, they might get sued. They already made that mistake. And we all know that Ubi cares much for money.
@Zombie, H5 is (justly) accused for ripping off WH, not WoW. Yes, comparisons were made before Lizard, but he's the only one who whrote a big and informative post about it (yeah, impressive work) and that picked my attention. But, as I already said, unless we have Erwan's word on it the "rip-off fact" can neither be proved nor disposed.
Now, about Internet thingy. I knew someone will tell me this. You know, instead of Internet, there were scientific journals, letters, communities etc. They were indeed slower than modern Internet, but still very functional, just like a huge network of taletellers. Do you know about invention of fingerprinting? I highly recommend you to delve in it, it's quite a drama.
But I'll give you a more proper and familiar example. How many times you came up with a joke, but then find out that it's not new?
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted February 08, 2015 09:04 AM |
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Again.
Warcraft came before H6
World of Warcraf came before H6
Both of these games are insanely popular. They are not some indie titles LOL. We're talking COD, Starcraft, Street Fighter, type of pupular ... even more than that - I would peronaly argue WoW is as popular and as influential as Doom or even Zelda .
Yes, saying Ubi didn't know about WoW is exactley like saying you never heard about Call of Duty. Even more. IT IS UBISOFT'S JOB TO KNOW. They have something called market reaserch sector. They are basicaly obliged to know about WoW and Blizzard. Those are their cometition.
Trend of WoW has now died out. Game still has folowing and lots of players. But it's not anything like in 2005-2010 (?) era. If you played games in those times, it was practicaly impossible to think PC game witouth thinking WoW. It was around every corner. It poped on youtube (which was starting to get popular) constantly. Adds were ever present. Yust going on internet, there was more comercials associated with WoW than almost anything else. Even celebrities had their WoW comercials (one of funny ones was Mr. T). Even music bands made references to it. Even my parents, who never touch a PC game, knew about World of Warcraft. It was on TV, in news. It was everywhere. It dominated gaming charts for several years straight as the most popular and played game. No. Comparing it to CoD does not give it justice.
Saying Ubi or Erwan or anyone who has any say in gaming industry in western world (EU, Russia and USA mostly, but you can argue big companies in Asia aswell), has not known about WoW is beyond ridiculous.
It is like if I would open bycicle burger stall and name my sadwiches Big Mac, and then claim I never heard about McDonalds. Hey ... I'm not in America so it TOTALY posiible right?
And are you seriously making comparison between news, letters, telegraph and INTERNET ? lol. Yes there were lots of law suits back then. A lot had to do with patenting the inventions. And yes it was total feasible that some guy living in Europe invented something, and discovered it was already patented in USA for instance. But this was BECAUSE there were no internet and information was slow. And countries blocked information flow constantly. There was free press, but it was not nearly as free as today.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 08, 2015 12:49 PM |
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Zombi_Wizzard said:
Trend of WoW has now died out. Game still has folowing and lots of players. But it's not anything like in 2005-2010 (?) era.
Exactly, and look at Heroes III: still very well alive.
@Sandro400: I enjoy speaking with you, but here it looks like you argue just for the sake of arguing. As Stevie said, evidence is right in front of you.
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frostymuaddib
Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
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posted February 08, 2015 12:52 PM |
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Zombi_Wizzard said:
Saying Ubi or Erwan or anyone who has any say in gaming industry in western world (EU, Russia and USA mostly, but you can argue big companies in Asia aswell), has not known about WoW is beyond ridiculous.
100% agree. My parents, who are barely using computers at all, know about WoW
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted February 08, 2015 01:29 PM |
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Galaad said:
Exactly, and look at Heroes III: still very well alive.
Ummm ... so is Doom and .. Age of Empires 2 ... and ... any self respecting "classical" game (yes H3 is a classic) ... but realy: http://www.statista.com/statistics/251222/most-played-pc-games/
WoW's far from being dead It's just that it's no longer No.1 thing in existance. It became old stuff.
Still can't beat LOL ... lol
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted February 08, 2015 02:17 PM |
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@Zombi, let me quote myself:
Quote:
And the last thing, but very important one.
Do you really think that after almost getting themselves sued by GW Ubi will repeat the same error, but now cause the ire of Blizzard?
...
What I like to add is that this situation in chess is called "pat", or stalemate. Unless we have Erwan's word on it the "rip-off fact" can neither be prooved nor disposed.
Now, you're perversing my words. I never said "they don't know about WoW". I said "knowing about it doesn't mean they copied from it". Or give my citation where I said it Because I too know that WoW exists. It doesn't mean I ripped from it - I never played it.
And again, I never compared Internet and newsletters in terms of speed - or else the citation is needed. And before saying something like "they were ineffective" (reminder: we're talking about scientific journals) and "countries blocked information", I recommend you to go and read those journals, again, for example, about invention of fingerprinting.
Now, to the question "does Erwan like WoW or not isn't important". You're mistaken. When you try to create something, you take inspiration from what you like. Try for yourself.
@Galaad - how have you deduced that I like arguing? ^^ But on a serious note. The main point here seems to be Spiderpolis. But they both took inpiration from egyptian-mesoamerican-sumerian cultures, of course they will look similar! It's obvious. And it doesn't proof they thay ripped-off from something.
But nobody here seems to pay attention to details. Look at last 4 images Lizard posted. I bet that I'll find more differencies than similarities when paying attention to details.
____________
Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted February 08, 2015 03:00 PM |
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Zombi_Wizzard said:
Trend of WoW has now died out. Game still has folowing and lots of players. But it's not anything like in 2005-2010 (?) era.
Huh? Dead? Still has 8 million people who hand out 15 bucks per month and a few million more people than the 2nd place, WoW is far from dead
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