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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: Heroes of War and Craft
Thread: Heroes of War and Craft This thread is 9 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 · «PREV / NEXT»
Kimarous
Kimarous


Supreme Hero
posted February 09, 2015 09:02 AM

I just edited in my point. Please reread my previous post.

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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted February 09, 2015 09:07 AM

What's to answer? You bring another nonsensical point along and you ask me to deal with it again. Star Wars has many "unexplained" things in its original trilogy and even in its "new" trilogy but nobody gives a damn about them because they are not important for the lore or you can do scary things like use your imagination to fill the gaps. So does Heroes and Might & Magic. However, for some unfathomable reason you consider the latter case to be a problem and you are yet to provide a single argument why.

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Kimarous
Kimarous


Supreme Hero
posted February 09, 2015 09:16 AM
Edited by Kimarous at 09:28, 09 Feb 2015.

Zenofex said:
What's to answer? You bring another nonsensical point along and you ask me to deal with it again. Star Wars has many "unexplained" things in its original trilogy and even in its "new" trilogy but nobody gives a damn about them because they are not important for the lore or you can do scary things like use your imagination to fill the gaps. So does Heroes and Might & Magic. However, for some unfathomable reason you consider the latter case to be a problem and you are yet to provide a single argument why.

You clearly haven't read my posts properly. My "nonsensical" point was that I wholeheartedly disagree that some of the factors you claim are "unexplained" - that many of those matters, like Jedi and Sith, ARE explained, or at least given enough hints as to what they actually are. Sure, maybe the Sith aren't "explained" in detail... heck, I don't even think they're NAMED, but from the known details of "Vader was a Jedi, then he turned evil" is enough implication of "Sith are evil Jedi." Who are the Jedi? "For over a thousand generations, the Jedi were guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic." That IS an explanation!

Breakdown:
1) Star Wars has more lore than you believe through straight-up explanations and strong implications.
2) Stop making bad comparisons with Star Wars, because you are wrong.
3) YOU not giving a damn about the prequel trilogy doesn't mean they are irrelevant.
4) Heroes 3 is lacking in straight-up explanations and strong implications.

EDIT: And if you're going to plug your fingers in your ears and say that I'm making no sense, don't even bother responding. I've said my piece, and I have no intention to get into a back and forth with someone obstinately ignorant.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted February 09, 2015 09:36 AM

What he means is not every detail has some crucial relevance to the main story (which is simply a filler for campaigns in a computer game) and things can be, in fact they will be left out. Now, you say:
Quote:
Nagas, meanwhile, feel a bit out of place with H3's Academy and we have no idea how they are linked to the faction. Are they summoned beings? A client race? Artificial? Natural? Equal standing? Lower standing? We garner NOTHING about them besides "they exist and are with Academy."

You have Hebrew Golems, Gothic French Gargoyles, Arabian Genies, British Gremlins, Greek Titans living together in a snowy castle and you think Naga's feel out of place? Why? According to what?
____________
i challenge ANYONE to prove me wrong. you CANNOT. -fred

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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted February 09, 2015 09:37 AM

I don't know why you don't see how flawed is all that (or your just refuse to admit it). I pick something which is pretty much the most important element in the Star Wars trilogy and say that there is next to no background for it in the movies, except from a few lines which say nothing more than "Jedi are the good guys, Sith are the bad guys". You pick something completely irrelevant to the M&M lore and make it sound like it actually matters, then ask why nobody acknowledged that it matters? That's a very poor strawman.

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Kimarous
Kimarous


Supreme Hero
posted February 09, 2015 09:40 AM

artu said:
You have Hebrew Golems, Gothic French Gargoyles, Arabian Genies, British Gremlins, Greek Titans living together in a snowy castle and you think Naga's feel out of place? Why? According to what?

The Gremlins at least dress wizard-y, gargoyles and golems are magically animated constructs, genies are magical, and the titans are ambiguously either magical or constructed. Nagas, at least to my eyes, just look like organic lifeforms with no specific ties to magic.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted February 09, 2015 09:42 AM

Someone should tell the Nagas to at least dress properly for the Academy then.
____________
i challenge ANYONE to prove me wrong. you CANNOT. -fred

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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
posted February 09, 2015 09:42 AM

uh I should probably stay out of this, but to liken the explanation for the Jedi and the Sith to the (non-)explanation of the Heroes 3 Naga doesn't make any sense, because the Jedi and the Sith are actually meaningful to the plot

like the dude pointed out on the previous page, an analogy that actually works is to compare the Naga with Admiral Ackbar or whatever other random weird looking extra in Star Wars with mere moments of screentime,
or say compare the explanation for the Jedi/Sith with the explanation for the Knights and the Necromancers

the story of Heroes 3 is not about the Naga, and the story of Star Wars is not about Admiral Ackbar (even if I think it should've been lol)

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Kimarous
Kimarous


Supreme Hero
posted February 09, 2015 09:44 AM

Zenofex said:
I don't know why you don't see how flawed is all that (or your just refuse to admit it). I pick something which is pretty much the most important element in the Star Wars trilogy and say that there is next to no background for it in the movies, except from a few lines which say nothing more than "Jedi are the good guys, Sith are the bad guys". You pick something completely irrelevant to the M&M lore and make it sound like it actually matters, then ask why nobody acknowledged that it matters? That's a very poor strawman.

Look, just drop it. I'm not going to argue with you, because we're clearly not seeing eye to eye and both of us think the other is a complete idiot.

I'm not talking to you anymore and I don't care what you have to say, so don't even bother replying.

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Zombi_Wizzard
Zombi_Wizzard


Famous Hero
posted February 09, 2015 09:47 AM

But do we need explanation for things like Naga ... or Vampire? they are mithological creatures. that's it. Look: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C4%81ga - this is Naga.

Sure it's represented a bit diferent in game, but who cares, it's still Naga. Just like Vampire is Vampire ... drinks blood, dies from stake, fears light etc.

One of the main reasons for H7 Vampire, not being "proper" Vampire, is also over explanation of things. Why was H2, and H3 Vampire/Nosferatu a proper one? Because they did not bother with explanation and just included it into game ... because ... it's a Vampire. Everyone knows what it is. It has nothing to do with Heroes lore.

If you want for Vampire (or indeed Naga) to fit into premade universe (Ashan), you have to rewrite it's story and make some lore, that would be in line with that universe.

This is why in Ashan, you become Vampire by eating poisonous spiders (or so I heard). And when you are a mage, and decide to become immortal you first age untill you're like a mumy and then reverse age untill you're like 20 again ... do you reverse age to baby state? And if not, why do you stop when you're in early 20's or 30's? who knows?

Should they just slap Vampire in (who is public domain monster), and include it in game with no explanation, it would be much easier, and Necropolis would be "proper" undead, like a lot of people want. Imo it was lore who ruined it.

Same goes with Naga. They are half-lady-half-snake creatures that you can recruit. Why? How? What's their role in Ashan? How come they are in same town as Golem, Gremlin, and Titan? Who knows. They are in there coz they're cool. Nothing else should matter. If you would start asking yourself how do they reproduce you would get into lots of trouble

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Dave_Jame
Dave_Jame


Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
posted February 09, 2015 09:48 AM
Edited by Dave_Jame at 09:52, 09 Feb 2015.

Quote:
3) YOU not giving a damn about the prequel trilogy doesn't mean they are irrelevant.


This actually a valid point Zeno. In our duscussion you insisted on the fact, that one should judge the world as a whole, regardless of gener or importance of its parts. Bbut at the same time, you yourself seperate one huge part of a works lore, story and background. So how is this diffeerent? How does your "I don't care about the prequels" differe from people who don't  care about RPGs and therefor never played the those games that tied the heroes games together. The result is prety much the same, you miss one huge part and many connections.


Quote:
Same goes with Naga. They are half-lady-half-snake creatures that you can recruit. Why? How? What's their role in Ashan? How come they are in same town as Golem, Gremlin, and Titan? Who knows. They are in there coz they're cool. Nothing else should matter. If you would start asking yourself how do they reproduce you would get into lots of trouble



Oh man oh man Zombi_Wizzard RUN.. They got pointy sticks and tourches and are off to get you.

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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted February 09, 2015 10:02 AM

Quote:
This actually a valid point Zeno. In our duscussion you insisted on the fact, that one should judge the world as a whole, regardless of gener or importance of its parts. Bbut at the same time, you yourself seperate one huge part of a works lore, story and background. So how is this diffeerent? How does your "I don't care about the prequels" differe from people who don't  care about RPGs and therefor never played the those games that tied the heroes games together. The result is prety much the same, you miss one huge part and many connections.

I'm getting the impression that some of you people read my posts like the Devil reads the Gospel. Where did I say that the prequel trilogy is irrelevant?

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Dave_Jame
Dave_Jame


Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
posted February 09, 2015 10:13 AM
Edited by Dave_Jame at 10:13, 09 Feb 2015.

I confess that I don't never read that discussion, it's rather pointless imho, but this was a point that interested me. If it was made up by Kimarous i'm sorry.

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Kimarous
Kimarous


Supreme Hero
posted February 09, 2015 10:13 AM

Zenofex said:
Quote:
This actually a valid point Zeno. In our duscussion you insisted on the fact, that one should judge the world as a whole, regardless of gener or importance of its parts. Bbut at the same time, you yourself seperate one huge part of a works lore, story and background. So how is this diffeerent? How does your "I don't care about the prequels" differe from people who don't  care about RPGs and therefor never played the those games that tied the heroes games together. The result is prety much the same, you miss one huge part and many connections.

I'm getting the impression that some of you people read my posts like the Devil reads the Gospel. Where did I say that the prequel trilogy is irrelevant?
Okay, I know I said that I was done talking to you, but since you asked and I was the one who brought it up...
Zenofex said:
What's to answer? You bring another nonsensical point along and you ask me to deal with it again. Star Wars has many "unexplained" things in its original trilogy and even in its "new" trilogy but nobody gives a damn about them because they are not important for the lore or you can do scary things like use your imagination to fill the gaps. So does Heroes and Might & Magic. However, for some unfathomable reason you consider the latter case to be a problem and you are yet to provide a single argument why.
And by "nobody gives a damn", you clearly meant "I personally don't give a damn, and I want to sound like I talk for more than just myself."

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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted February 09, 2015 10:15 AM

Nobody gives a damn about the unexplained things, Captain Reading Comprehension.

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Kimarous
Kimarous


Supreme Hero
posted February 09, 2015 10:18 AM

Zenofex said:
Nobody gives a damn about the unexplained things, Captain Reading Comprehension.

Okay, error on my part. My apologies. Point stands, though.

And back to "not responding to this topic anymore."

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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
posted February 09, 2015 10:23 AM

Zenofex said:
I'm getting the impression that some of you people read my posts like the Devil reads the Gospel.



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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted February 09, 2015 10:45 AM

That's an alien.

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Avirosb
Avirosb


Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
posted February 09, 2015 10:45 AM
Edited by Avirosb at 10:46, 09 Feb 2015.

GenyaArikado said:
1) What do you want? Go to the old Heroes games* where lore was practicaly non existing,
creatures looked literally out of their respective movie/tabletop game and had the moral scale of colours of a chess board?

2) Because i'm not talking about the whole story.
I'm saying that stuff like the background of the units should be in their respective game,
not in a footnote of the manual of one of games of RPG branch of the franchise and how old HEROES GAMES
(not the universe, the HEROES GAMES) were mediocre in that aspect

3) So you want to drop ashan story because its bland and ripped off from other games and want to go back to the bland and ripped off from media different of videogames story of Axeoth.
Not trying to make any argument here, just making sure i understood you well.
1) Of course you realize Arantir is a poor man's Gavin Magnus.

2) Whereas the critter background explanations in Ashan are purely mediocre.

3) Or they could just hire better writers and give them more freedom and cut down on the kewl cutscenes a bit.

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Sleeping_Sun
Sleeping_Sun


Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
posted February 09, 2015 11:47 AM
Edited by Sleeping_Sun at 12:07, 09 Feb 2015.

@Genya
Quote:
Quote:
Not to mention the ridiculous amount of retcons they have to do almost after every single game...
thats what i dont want. And the explanation they gave for rebootin the universe is for that same reason
And yet they already started with retcons: elements of H5 being non-canonical is just one of them. You maybe do not want them (I do not want them as well), but they still do that. (There is also some retcon concerning Ashan moons, Blade of binging, etc.)

Quote:
Because i'm not talking about the whole story. I'm saying that stuff like the background of the units should be in their respective game, not in a footnote of the manual of one of games of RPG branch of the franchise and how old HEROES GAMES (not the universe, the HEROES GAMES) were mediocre in that aspect
Well, is that information really important to be provided in game? The game is called HEROES of M&M, not UNITS/CREATURES of M&M. I agree that Ashan has provided more info about its units in game, in descriptions of the units. (I am not sure if H4 provided some info about units in their biographies, but some things were provided in the campaigns) But NWC and UBI universe is the same in providing additional lore in the rest of their games, not just in Heroes games. And I do not mean just the main story.

Quote:
Quote:
Ashan Compedium, or some info on their blog to know what is happening in their lore?
Because you dont have to go read the ashan compendium to read "X thing in game" lore, in units case they have theirs incorporated in the unit screen.
Ok, that is about the units. Fine, you've got the point there, but what about the rest of the information and interesting tidbits? Should I search the entire internet for that? Again I'll mention their blog, newsletter, etc. Why don't they provide it in game?

Quote:
Quote:
Who ignored what? Quote it. As for the game. Yeah, it was already made and that is H5. And yes the bland story is Ashan story. (And you said you defend/like Ashan lore - how ironic and ridiculous) They didn't want the same universe, but they wanted the same campaign of H3:RoE. I am amazed that they couldn't come up with a new (and potentially better) campaign (and story/plot) with their now lore.

So you want to drop ashan story because its bland and ripped off from other games and want to go back to the bland and ripped off from media different of videogames story of Axeoth. Not trying to make any argument here, just making sure i understood you well.
Stop putting your words into my mouth!!! I did not say DROP the story. Let's go all over the quotes again, because you are beginning to assume things even though I did not mention them.

You said: "I find it lovely how you choose the ignore the first part of my post because you know its true.
I asked: "Who ignored what? Quote it." I wrote this because I do not know what I had ignored, if you post it again, I'll happily provide you an answer.

Your next part is: "Make H3 today and not only it will be generic and bland story wise, it'll have at least two assured lost sues via the beholder and the gorgon creatures"
I replied this: "As for the game. Yeah, it was already made and that is H5. And yes the bland story is Ashan story. (And you said you defend/like Ashan lore - how ironic and ridiculous) They didn't want the same universe, but they wanted the same campaign of H3:RoE. I am amazed that they couldn't come up with a new (and potentially better) campaign (and story/plot) with their now lore."

You wrote: "So you want to drop ashan story because its bland and ripped off from other games and want to go back to the bland and ripped off from media different of videogames story of Axeoth. Not trying to make any argument here, just making sure i understood you well."
My reply:
1) Since Ashan is here to stay, I just want it improved, nothing more. I never said drop it in our conversation. I love the old universe, and I can live with Ashan, bit I hope it's going to improve.
2) Are you now admitting that NWC world = Ashan world = bland and rip off?
3) How is the world of Axeoth rip off? Can you provide me something here? Or it is just your word/opinion.
4) You obviously did not understand me well because you make assumptions, or jump to conclusions.

Quote:
Now can you please stop adressing me everywhere i post? I respond out of cortesy, not out of desire to argue with a rock.
It is nice of you that you reply to me out of courtesy. I thank you for that. However, you must realize something. I stopped addressing you on the 2nd page of this thread. There, my first post was addressed to you, while my second post was addressed to Sandro400. Then, you discussed with other people. I did not get involved with your communication with them.
BUT!!! On the 4th page of this thread you posted: "Hahaha were are your arguments boy? Will you call them out sleeping sun or lizard?" So you see, it is you who provoked me to start replying to you again. Why are you complaining then? Also, you can call me a rock, but you'll always be a mountain...

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