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| Thread: Heroes of War and Craft |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted February 09, 2015 01:01 PM |
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Avirosb said:
1) Of course you realize Arantir is a poor man's Gavin Magnus.
2) Whereas the critter background explanations in Ashan are purely mediocre.
3) Or they could just hire better writers and give them more freedom and cut down on the kewl cutscenes a bit.
1) Why do you say so? I havent played dark messiah so idk how does his story ends (other than he dies) so Id like to know.
2) Thats your opinion. You also dislike hero descriptions being longer.than two lines. Frankly even if they were complete shiza, Heroes 1-4 didnt even have those so i cant even compare.
3) If you are talking about dialogue, yeah i agree.
Quote:
I'm not discussing the creature's looks (although I find most of the new creatures' looks ridiculous). The lore part however is pure nonsense and you are yet to explain why do you even stick to that nonsense so stubbornly.
Quote:
why do think its nosense?
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted February 09, 2015 01:13 PM |
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H3 in-game biography:
Gem was one of the greatest Sorceresses that Enroth had ever seen, serving King Roland Ironfist during the Succession Wars. Shortly after Roland had secured the throne of Enroth, Gem left for Erathia, finding a new home in AvLee.
H4 in-game biography:
Even though Gem was at the center of over eighty years of wars and conflicts, she remained young and beautiful thanks to the waters of a special fountain. With the destruction of the old world, she no longer has access to those magical waters and is beginning to age normally again - something she desperately wants to avoid.
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"The age can be wicked to those who walk alone. When I look into the Mirror, I see myself as I might become..." -Freya
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted February 09, 2015 01:15 PM |
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Edited by Avirosb at 13:16, 09 Feb 2015.
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1) Before I try to explain what I meant I should make sure I understand what you meant by "creatures having the moral scale of colours of a chess board".
2) True. Although in H3 and H4 - and even H5 to some degree - descriptions were certainly more concise.
3) Well that is definitely my biggest gripe, but there's also the extreme amount of superfluous words in text.
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted February 09, 2015 01:18 PM |
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"creatures having the moral scale of colours of a chess board"
Probably having only pure good and pure evil creatures, with no grey ones...
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"The age can be wicked to those who walk alone. When I look into the Mirror, I see myself as I might become..." -Freya
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted February 09, 2015 01:21 PM |
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I don't get it. They're units, not individuals.
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted February 09, 2015 01:23 PM |
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Zombi_Wizzard said:
So, It's totaly accidental. Yea right. Erwan is someone who lives in a cave. He never uses internet, and does not know what google is. Because if he does, he knows what is WoW.
I beg your pardon? Do we have some sort of linguistical barrier here? I too know that WoW exists, my friend plays is, I too have an internet and love fantasy. And guess what? I haven't played it. Knowing about something doesn't make you obligatory to be a lore-hound, for example. I don't know how else should I rephrase myself, help somebody.
P.S.: a little story: in my fanfic I had a demon named Azarot. Guess what? Everybody thought I payed homage to WoW, though I had no idea the world is called Azeroth. Maybe it's because of my "ficwriter past" that I even engaged in this conversation.
Zombi_Wizzard said:
Even tho that end result in both cases looks nothing like the source. Zigurat does not look anything like this. So no. Wait ... zigurat does look like this ... in Warcraft and only Warcraft.
What please? WoW took step pyramids and added to them crowns from LotR, apparently calling that "ziggurats" (though real ziggurats look different). You know, the real similarity between their architecture are those piramids and crowns on top of them and on top of towers. Building shape is natural because of the inspiration sourse (it's not only mesopotamian), and not all crown shapes used in both instances look similar.
Zombi_Wizzard said:
No. It's realy not.
You mean the Dragons and Orc chapters are not far-fetched? Mate, we have different meaning of the word "far-fetched" in this case.
Zombi_Wizzard said:
Meaning - Aside from necro architecture, there are not similarities at all, meaning each of them is unique in it's own right. Maybe you ment something diferent, but this is basicaly what can be understood from this statement.
I suspected you're trying to troll me. Now, I'm certain you just don't understand what I'm talking about, sorry for my suspicion. Do you have my quote on the "each of them is unique?" I guess not. Now, if you haven't noticed, I repeated several times that "following trend and rippig-off are 2 completely different things". Beautiful vampires are a trend now. Picturing every faction in shades of grey is gaining popularity and I'd say it's a good trend. Humanoid, tall and unchanging Elves as well as stocky and nordic Dwarves are a trend also (in a lot of modern games). You see, there's also a difference between similar and identical. Did I make myself clear?
Zombi_Wizzard said:
Yes. I accused you of saying: "every other point made by Lizard is too far-fetched." Which you did say. Or do you deny?
How is it that you accuse me of something which is completely left-out from this phrase: Quote:
Now. If you don't see these things and still think of Ashan as being totaly unique and all that, fine.
First you "accused" me of thinking about Ashan as "totaly unique", then you suddenly switch to accusing me for a different thing?  Some inconsistency here, I think ^^
Zombi_Wizzard said:
No. Maybe I wasn't clear but, here. Let me qoute myself:
"Wheter or not charges of plagiarism would stand on court is not a concern at this point. There are several factors to include here, including the fact that ... is Blizzard even interasted in such procedure? And ofc the fact that strong defensive arguments against it can be made"
Even if they're not, it's never a good thing to provocate such suit. The risks are too high. And they already had an experience with GH. It's like entering the cage with lions again, after you miracuously escaped from them once
Btw, the publisher is Ubi, so Ubi too will share the responsibily, if not take the full responsibility (Limbics/Nival are just developers, they do what they're told). And "asking for approval" ususally means that 1 company pays money to the other for this "approval" 
P.S.: Limbics haven't created Vampire, they re-used the model
Zombi_Wizzard said:
But your general state, that I can understand from your post is: Ashan is very diferent than Azeroth, and any similarities are just coincidence. Whith which I don't agree.
Please, reread our conversation (+ my discussion with Lizard) again (this post included). If you will still stick to this understanding, then we have a communication barrier indeed.
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Dave_Jame said:
Well I like to be the devil's advocate you see. It is fun for me :-) and it is not fun when the oposing side doesn't contribute the same way.
 I'm starting to respect you even more man! High five!
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted February 09, 2015 01:25 PM |
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Avirosb said:
1) Before I try to explain what I meant I should make sure I understand what you meant by "creatures having the moral scale of colours of a chess board".
2) True. Although in H3 and H4 - and even H5 to some degree - descriptions were certainly more concise.
3) Well that is definitely my biggest gripe, but there's also the extreme amount of superfluous words in text.
1) I actually snowed up there too XD. The black and white comment was supposed to go after the lore comment
2) and 3) well personally I like the extra stuff. I dont think think its bad
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted February 09, 2015 01:29 PM |
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Quote:
why do think its nosense?
Because you claim both that Heroes has no lore and that M&M has a separate lore, none of which is even remotely true.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted February 09, 2015 01:50 PM |
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Sandro400 said:
I beg your pardon? Do we have some sort of linguistical barrier here? I too know that WoW exists, my friend plays is, I too have an internet and love fantasy. And guess what? I haven't played it. Knowing about something doesn't make you obligatory to be a lore-hound, for example. I don't know how else should I rephrase myself, help somebody.
P.S.: a little story: in my fanfic I had a demon named Azarot. Guess what? Everybody thought I payed homage to WoW, though I had no idea the world is called Azeroth. Maybe it's because of my "ficwriter past" that I even engaged in this conversation.
I don't think this line of reasoning you're getting at is very flattering no matter which possibility is true,
we have two simple conclusions, either we say Erwan and the design staff willfully drew "inspiration" from Warcraft just as they did Warhammer,
or we say it's all a coincidence, that this "author of a dozen pen & paper RPGs" and his team (which have tried to break into the MMO market on multiple occasions, I might add) are innocent of plagiarism this time, but are impossibly incompetent or retarded enough to be completely unaware of the biggest behemoth of a competitor that ever existed in their own industry and genre
let's get real lol
whether the plagiarism is right or wrong, the other option wouldn't speak very well to their credibility and qualifications as the creative directors of Might and Magic if random players know understand the rival market better than they do, in fact I'd prefer they had plagiarized than for this crap to be true lol
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted February 09, 2015 02:31 PM |
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@Sandro
Ok, I admit I don't know anymore what the hell are you trying to say. One time you accept that HoMM is similar to WoW artwise, and another time you deny it, by saying it's far fetched. So which is it?
If you claim they are not similar, then I have to opose you on that, because to me, and to many other people they look very similar. And in this case, it's end of discussion. You simply don't agree, and if you can't see, you can't see, and there's nothing I can do, to convince you to see.
I played Warcraft 2, Warcraft 3 and WoW, and I can see the similarities. Lizard (I suspect from his posting) also played WoW at least (maybe he didn't but he does know about it very well). And he also sees similarities. You didn't play those games and you don't see similarities. Fine.
If, on the other hand, you agree, that they are similar ... then you agree.  It's as simple as that.
Now ... about riping off part, and Erwan not hearing about WoW:
There are 2 parts and 2 seperate points to this:
1.) Take this example (I'll borow Star Wars). Let's say I am movie creator. And I decide to make sci-fi movie, in which one main character is Drarth Vader, dressed in black robe. Guess what? Lucas will sue me, most likely. Would my defence that I didn't see Star Wars hold any ground? No. I would have to withdraw and change my character. Me watching or not watching Star Wars has no meaning. It is my obligation, as a film director to know that Darth Vader is copy protected. And wouldn't you find it funy if I would claim (as film director no less) I never heard of Star Wars? Yep it would be prety ridiculous. WoW is Star Wars of gaming as far as popularity goes.
From this point you can see: Not knowing that you copy something is not excuse to copy it and get away with it. It is very likely Ubi didn't know, that their models were similar to GW models, prior to H5 release. This is why they made it in first place. Yet GW sued them for it, and they had to withdraw.
Now. Second issue which is seperate:
2.) Is art style of WoW copy protected? ... Most likely no. Arthas is copy protected. But if I make a Vampire that is similar to Arthas in looks, it's OK. Noone can sue me. I didn't take story character. I only took inspiration and used it's looks as guidelines to develop my own caracter. Do I need to know what Arthas is about? No. I only need a picture. Do I do this knowingly? Sure. There's no risk involved. Just like there is no risk of law suit, if I make H4 style Vampire ... that looks like Dracula. Or H3 one ... that looks like Nosferatu. Yes. You can say in laymans terms that "H3 riped off Nosferatu", and it is correct. But as long as you don't call it Dracula, it's legaly OK.
Now contrary to what you may think, I never intended to acuse Ubi of plagiarism. Nor did I claim their actions are legaly or moraly wrong. What I am saying is, that they took heavy inspiration from WoW, when designing their stuff. And their stuff indeed looks similar. People (including me) have been using term: "riped off", and I gree it's harsh and crude way of saying it. It does not mean however that literaly implys copy-protection violation.
Here. Let me put it into soft terms: From LizardWarrior's post it is clear, that Limbic/Ubisoft team, took heavy inspiration from WoW, when designing look and feel of units. Does it sound any better?
Would you think, that even if it's legaly ok for them to do it, it would be sensible move from Erwan to outright admit it to fans who, he knows dislike this style? ... yes not very.
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted February 09, 2015 03:18 PM |
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Zenofex said:
Quote:
why do think its nosense?
Because you claim both that Heroes has no lore and that M&M has a separate lore, none of which is even remotely true.
no, i said that lore about the stuff in old heroes isnt really accesible in the heroes games and that it shouldnt have been like that. I didnt say that they were a separate story.
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted February 09, 2015 05:49 PM |
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verriker said:
let's get real
Let's! Following established trends is not the same as plagiarising. That's the only thing I'm really trying to get to you guys, the rest is not so important. If you haven't noticed, I dislike the usage of words such as "plagiarism" and "rip-off".
Now, "drawing inspiration" and "plagiarize" are 2 different things as well
See, the main problem is the wording used by both sides.
Zombi_Wizzard said:
@Sandro
Ok, I admit I don't know anymore what the hell are you trying to say. One time you accept that HoMM is similar to WoW artwise, and another time you deny it, by saying it's far fetched. So which is it?
Argh.
Ok, I'll ask again. Do you see a difference between following established trends and plagiarising? I'll try to explain it in multiple ways.
Following trend means that you use something that became popular. Tall Elves, undead Ghouls etc. But you're not blindingly copying it, you try to bring some "flavor" to your iteration of the trend so it will feel similar and at the same time different. Let's take Vampires of Ashan for example. Yes, they're beautiful, never-changing, etc. But they're also created by drinking a venom of fat, obese creature, their blood becomes a poison etc. Or let's take Dark Souls, which practically has a spider-woman boss - but that spider-woman is connected with Chaos and spews fire. I can give many other examples. It's like taking 40-50% of smb's elses idea and add to it 50-60% of your own.
Now, ripping-off - plagiarising - is when you copy something nearly 100%. Identical copy.
Now, I agree that architecture looks similar - and I already explained that it should look the same. But similar and identical - do those 2 things have one and the same meaning?
I'll be honest with you, I haven't read the rest of your post. I believe that I made my point clear and if we still don't have a mutual understanding, I'll answer to your post fully.
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Now, guys, I want to hear your opinion.
Here are 4 dragons:
And this guy:
Do they look similar? If yes, did the artists ripped one from another? If yes, who's the "original" dragon out of 4?
P.S.: Oh please forgive me, Lizard, I thought my question was obvious enough 
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted February 09, 2015 05:51 PM |
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mythology
Quote:
Now, ripping-off - plagiarising - is when you copy something nearly 100%. Identical copy.
dictionary.com said:
1.
an act or instance of using or closely imitating the language and thoughts of another author without authorization and the representation of that author's work as one's own, as by not crediting the original author:
It is said that he plagiarized Thoreau's plagiarism of a line written by Montaigne.
Synonyms: appropriation, infringement, piracy, counterfeiting; theft, borrowing, cribbing, passing off.
2.
a piece of writing or other work reflecting such unauthorized use or imitation:
“These two manuscripts are clearly plagiarisms,” the editor said, tossing them angrily on the floor.
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted February 09, 2015 06:05 PM |
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LizardWarrior said:
an act or instance of using or closely imitating the language and thoughts
Sandro400 said:
Now, ripping-off - plagiarising - is when you copy something nearly 100%. Identical copy.
Mmm? It seems you missed it, but a couple of pages ago we already discussed with verriker what plagiarism means. So I'm really curious what you tried to say (or should I say, demonstrate ) by quoting dictionary ^^
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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cleglaw
Famous Hero
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posted February 09, 2015 06:46 PM |
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@Sandro
its really not same thing.. in fact thats a really different thing to talk about. in terms of dragon differences, yes the images you post seems very different from one to another. they are very different dragons.
but on the architecture, to the main topic we are discussing, h7 necro is "exactly same" of the warcraft undead. yes i do know what i am saying. EXACT SAME. small cosmetic differences are for artistic topic, but in architectural view, they are exact same.
personally i hate wow/warcraft. i dont like their continents, i dont like their races, i dont like their art style, dont like how cheese those games are(kill 7 wolf yay quest done) and i really dont like heroes to copy them like a game who has no past.
heroes should have its own style not looking to much like any another game out there. this what originallity is, you get inspired from lots of things and you combine them with a lot more things you.. like your personal life and such... whatever you create it will eventually look like something else that allready done before.
its okay as long as its not easy to say something like this:"yeah this is from this, omg so similiar" and in our case we clearly say this, because well thats not creativity its more then inspiritaion, its nearly copy/paste. very strong similiarities with waarcraft here.
this is really not cool, this game has a rich/old legacy, seeing such thing makes me sad.. and when im sad i want to make bad things to whoever responsible..
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted February 09, 2015 07:00 PM |
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cleglaw said:
@Sandro
its really not same thing.. in fact thats a really different thing to talk about. in terms of dragon differences, yes the images you post seems very different from one to another. they are very different dragons.
but on the architecture, to the main topic we are discussing, h7 necro is "exactly same" of the warcraft undead. yes i do know what i am saying. EXACT SAME. small cosmetic differences are for artistic topic, but in architectural view, they are exact same.
Ahh... as they say: the more the merrier. One more person joins our jo-jo-jolly conversation! Welcome!
Now, I'm amazed. Not surprised, but still amazed. I gave you 4 images of big red winged fire-breathing wyvern-like dragons (you see, the "shape" is one and the same, difference comes from details, as you rightly noticed), and they're different. But 2 step pyramids with "cosmetic differences" (I believe they're called "details", tell me if I'm wrong) are similar. Now, either I was right when I said that similarity is in the eye of the beholder, or there's something wrong here 
I agree with you that Heroes should have their own style, though. But I know there're people who will say that old Heroes too weren't... em... "so original" (I'm not one of them, just saying) ^^
And I hope you were joking when you said "and when im sad i want to make bad things to whoever responsible". After all, it's a videogame, even if it means a lot for us.
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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cleglaw
Famous Hero
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posted February 09, 2015 07:17 PM |
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Edited by cleglaw at 19:22, 09 Feb 2015.
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Sandro400 said:
Ahh... as they say: the more the merrier. One more person joins our jo-jo-jolly conversation! Welcome!
Now, I'm amazed. Not surprised, but still amazed. I gave you 4 images of big red winged fire-breathing wyvern-like dragons (you see, the "shape" is one and the same, difference comes from details, as you rightly noticed), and they're different. But 2 step pyramids with "cosmetic differences" (I believe they're called "details", tell me if I'm wrong) are similar. Now, either I was right when I said that similarity is in the eye of the beholder, or there's something wrong here
I agree with you that Heroes should have their own style, though. But I know there're people who will say that old Heroes too weren't... em... "so original" (I'm not one of them, just saying) ^^
And I hope you were joking when you said "and when im sad i want to make bad things to whoever responsible". After all, it's a videogame, even if it means a lot for us.
i say cosmetics not details because even the top of the buildings, corners of it share exact same elements, spider legs/spikes, floating crystal shaped objectes to crown the top... these are "the detail" parts of architecture. not even mentioning the general form of architecture and such...
and when you make one spike/spider leg slightly longer and curvy, its still the same detail but different cosmetics.
and about my last words, well i thought sometihing like "flaming" not really evil thoughts.
edit: i forgot this dragon thing. i mean dragon is a creature identified with very specific things, wings, snake-like form, breath-weapon, and a tail. all dragons have those... they all look like each other at some point. therefore, comparing architecture-dragons is wrong. for example there are tons of different ways to desing a pyramid...
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted February 09, 2015 07:18 PM |
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Sandro400 said:
Let's! Following established trends is not the same as plagiarising. That's the only thing I'm really trying to get to you guys, the rest is not so important. If you haven't noticed, I dislike the usage of words such as "plagiarism" and "rip-off".
Now, "drawing inspiration" and "plagiarize" are 2 different things as well
See, the main problem is the wording used by both sides.
plagiarism is what this concept is called in English, if you prefer euphemisms like "following established trends" or "drawing inspiration" that's OK, we can respect each other's use of language
but if you would quibble that I can't say they plagiarised/ripped off Games Workshop's Warhammer art because you don't like those words, I'll have to stop you there because that's a nuisance discussion even by my standards lol
plagiarism, in English, does not mean a work has to be exactly identical - here's a simple Wikipedia definition, because I can Google like a real pro
Quote:
Plagiarism is the "wrongful appropriation" and "stealing and publication" of another author's "language, thoughts, ideas, or expressions" and the representation of them as one's own original work. The idea remains problematic with unclear definitions and unclear rules. The modern concept of plagiarism as immoral and originality as an ideal emerged in Europe only in the 18th century, particularly with the Romantic movement. ...
Plagiarism is not a crime per se but in academia and industry, it is a serious ethical offense, and cases of plagiarism can constitute copyright infringement.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 09, 2015 07:25 PM |
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I think this thread is a great contender for "best thread of 2015" award.
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted February 09, 2015 09:10 PM |
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Gee ... I wonder which one of these:
Does NOT belong?
Also take a challange! Show this to someone who does not know HoMM very well ... like your mother or sister or your elderly neighbour, and ask him/her/it - Which one of these is NOT from WoW ?
That should clarify the similarities 
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