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| Thread: Heroes of War and Craft |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 08, 2015 03:02 PM |
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LizardWarrior said:
WoW is far from dead 
He probably meant the hype is not as high as it was ten years ago. I then stressed Heroes III didn't loose it at all.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted February 08, 2015 03:07 PM |
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Sandro400 said:
But, as I already said, unless we have Erwan's word on it the "rip-off fact" can neither be proved nor disposed.
oh man lol... I really don't think you understand how the concept of plagiarism works
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted February 08, 2015 03:51 PM |
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yes I can totaly expect someone who has riped something off to say .... "yes I riped something off" It's like admiting to a crime.
You can argue about usfulness of newsletters and telegraph all you want, but fact remains, the information is MUCH easyer, faster, and in MUCH larger quantaties available because of the internet. To be missinformed about something in this day and age is simply inexcusable. Hence some refer to modern times, Age of Information (catchy game title no?) or information age.
If you do know someone made something before you, and you decide to to the same thing, and take credits as it being your work, this is called plagiarism. Simple as that. Or in common terms, to rip something off.
And newsflash - companies provide goods that people would buy, and because they expect to sell them, and not because their director is particulary fond of the product. Even tho it helps. When the Ubi produced Ashan, it wasn't just Erwan's fetish with green glowing spiders that counted, it was the direction of art design that was most likely accepted during a company meeting (or several).
Things go more or less like:
Leader: Ok, people which style would we want our game to be?
Person 1: Realistic style, like for example in early D&D and movies.
Person 2: That style dosen't work well with curent player's demographic. Comic style is what it sells now.
Leader: Ok let's try comic style - Artists present me some rough art.
This is how games are made. This is patern for ANY company, not just gaming, but everything. The market dictates the trend. Ubi chose WoW style because, IT SELLS.
More than anything I would say Erwan has been probably insipred by H3, since it is the game he's refering to ... every interview. To be inspired by something and to copy something, because you calculate it will bring more profit, are 2 diferent things.
And @Lizard - I wasn't implying WoW is dead, but that the (over)hype is not present anymore. Like Galaad said. I also said this in my response to Galaad on page 2 of this thread. It's still one of the most popular games out there, but it's not anything like it was 5-10 years ago.
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted February 08, 2015 04:04 PM |
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Yeah thinking WoW is dead or unknown to heroes producers its a silly thing. The game is in decay though, it had a surge in the last xpack because of the player models but thats it.
One of the reasons im so defensive of Ashan's lore is i dont want it to end up like WCs lore, sparkling and broken. Rule of Cool is what caused WC's lore decay
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted February 08, 2015 04:07 PM |
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Eh? You defend Ashan's lore because it's stupid?
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted February 08, 2015 04:21 PM |
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verriker said:
oh man lol... I really don't think you understand how the concept of plagiarism works
But you ofc understand! The next time I'll need an expert in plagiarism I'll call for you mate
My friend, what I was talking about is prooving or disposing accusations in "plagiarism". No one except the man on your avatar (why is he there btw? you look like Rakshasa who had Ashan Vampire avatar while hating them) or someone from Ubi can prove or dispose them. But as far as I know, presumption of innocence still works.
Btw, he (or was it Marzhin?) admitted that H5 ripped off from WH. Sooo... do I know how the concept of plagiarism works? Ask me again 
@Zombi - they don't need to say "we ripped" - "we took inspiration from" is sufficient. But hey, they confessed about WH and H5! They confessed in crime! They confessed that H6's story was inspired by SoIaF! They confessed in crime!
Do I really need to become sarcastic in order to drive my point home?
Now, you don't need to explain to me how game undustry works. I understand it better than most. You're just dilluting our argument. If anything, H7 Necro doesn't look "trendish", except Vampires (it is a trend for them now to be beautiful etc). Just look at those oh-so-welcomed Liches  As I once told you (or not you, but somebody here), followinf trend and ripping-off are not similar things. I'm amazed how people fail to notice that.
And again, I'll quote myself, you seem to ignore this valuable piece of information
Sandro400 said:
And the last thing, but very important one.
Do you really think that after almost getting themselves sued by GW Ubi will repeat the same error, but now cause the ire of Blizzard?
Believe me, they need to make gigantic profits from Heroes to not be afraid of any sues. And we all know that Heroes are not like Assassin's Creed. And we all know how Ubi loves money (and making money).
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted February 08, 2015 04:33 PM |
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Zenofex said:
Eh? You defend Ashan's lore bei cause it's stupid?
No, i defend it because i find it good and not messy (H5 non withstanding) and i dont want it to get messy because of "Rule of Cool" like WoW
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted February 08, 2015 04:42 PM |
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GenyaArikado said:
Zenofex said:
Eh? You defend Ashan's lore bei cause it's stupid?
No, i defend it because i find it good and not messy (H5 non withstanding) and i dont want it to get messy because of "Rule of Cool" like WoW
You sound like a victim of the industry's (and particularly Ubisoft's) mediocrity. "Oh no, don't try harder, you risk messing up. We're fine with our... well, not so smart... and not very good-looking but docile and PREDICTABLE child. Stay away from it, fiends of quality!". That's the attitude which makes the Earth spin. 
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted February 08, 2015 04:52 PM |
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Sandro400 said:
But you ofc understand! The next time I'll need an expert in plagiarism I'll call for you mate
My friend, what I was talking about is prooving or disposing accusations in "plagiarism". No one except the man on your avatar (why is he there btw? you look like Rakshasa who had Ashan Vampire avatar while hating them) or someone from Ubi can prove or dispose them. But as far as I know, presumption of innocence still works.
Btw, he (or was it Marzhin?) admitted that H5 ripped off from WH. Sooo... do I know how the concept of plagiarism works? Ask me again
this may be a language barrier issue because of your somewhat poor English (no offense), but you have to realize how flawed that is,
in a formal legal case of plagiarism where proof is required (which this is not, it's a forum thread lol), it is not up to the accused individual to decide whether they are guilty, just like the Zombie Wizard said, you might as well expect a criminal to conduct investigations into their own crime
what you're talking about is a piece of evidence, not a piece of proof
if Ubisoft states they haven't ripped off Games Workshop and Blizzard, it would be treated as a strong piece of evidence, not outright proof to end an argument one way or the other, because they're inherently biased as the accused party
actual proof could come out of something more or less undeniable like an internal Ubisoft email from the time where an artist states Blizzard work is a reference, but not some contemporary comment from Erwin saying "Hello Heroes, no, Warcraft did not inspire the world of Ashan"
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted February 08, 2015 05:14 PM |
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@verriker - no offence taken I never claimed to be an English linguist ^^
I sincerely hope that I didn't understand you and you didn't imply (marginnaly) that if we have a forum thread about plagiarism, then we don't require proofs/evidence/etc. It is my humble opinion that such conversations require strong arguments, or else, what's the point in throwing accusations at one another? And yeah, accused individual should not decide whether he's guilty or not (on which I agree), but in such cases he has a word to say. Mind you, proving plagiarism is very difficult unless you have a patent (and even then it's not so trivial). On the other hand, such things as ideas cannot be plagiarized by anyone (because ideas cannot be patented) by the definition of the word. That's one of the reasons we don't have hundreds of suits on "beautiful Vampires" nd many other things. And plagiarizm is always a deliberate act.
Oh, actually, I draw a line between "following trend" and "ripping-off" (plagiarism). I think you won't ask me again do I know how the concept of plagiarism works 
Though I'll agree with you on that:
Quote:
actual proof could come out of something more or less undeniable like an internal Ubisoft email from the time where an artist states Blizzard work is a reference, but not some contemporary comment from Erwin saying "Hello Heroes, no, Warcraft did not inspire the world of Ashan"
I did a mistake thinking that Ubi-Erwan's words would be enough to close a case once and for all.
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted February 08, 2015 05:17 PM |
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Hi everybody.
Please, do not take this post as a criticism of the OP or the topic. I read the OP, and I must say some of the points are valid, as well as some look a bit far fetched, as is the nature of such comparisons.
But this topic, together with the Dark Messiah topic in the general discussion made me think of one thing.
Didn't we, as the community, brought this on ourselves back in the days? Didn't we, with some of our actions, gave the world the message that we want this generic, uninspired approach?
The reason why I ask this question is a mode I remembered thanks to the Dark Messiah topic. One of the first, if not the only, mode for the game changed the orange skin of the orcs to green. Why? Because people thought, and often loudly called out, that TRUE orcs should be green, and not this orange color. This is not an orc, they said. An image fed tu us by our culture, that wasn't actually true for the game. And I can't not see somewhat of a parallel of this and the Necropolis topic that is around us now.
This misinformation we gave could have been seen even in the early days of H5, when one of the first modes replaced the treants and priests "new" design with the old "WH" inspired ones from the Demo. Similar another mode replaced the new Wrights with at the time neutral death knights, just so, that the lineup would be the same as it was in H3.
Somehow, I think we, as a community are to blame. We want innovation but without the destruction of tradition. We want the game to follow the trends and be original at the same time. We often send mixed messages, and our opinions change in time. Each of us has his ideal vision and personal opinion, and as such, the community as a whole can never be satisfied.
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted February 08, 2015 05:25 PM |
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@Dave_Jame - you can count on my support and respect mate. Well said. Though you'll possibly face some degree of hate.
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted February 08, 2015 05:38 PM |
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Sandro400 said:
I sincerely hope that I didn't understand you and you didn't imply (marginnaly) that if we have a forum thread about plagiarism, then we don't require proofs/evidence/etc.
no, I don't think they're required,
I think they're obligatory and that they elevate the discussion, and LizardWarrior has supplied more than enough evidence to back himself up, but nobody here is going to be criminalized or forced at gunpoint to back up their arguments lol
ultimately, although it would be nice to again know for sure that they are ripping off someone else's art,
you don't even need to prove that Erwin and friends are copying Blizzard just to suspect that they probably are, or to hold the opinion that the current art direction is insipid and lacks an identity of its own - which is certainly not pointless in itself, even though you're fully entitled to think it is
Sandro400 said:
I think you won't ask me again do I know how the concept of plagiarism works
I think we have an understanding, but I might well do that if it feels necessary lol
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted February 08, 2015 05:45 PM |
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@verriker - I'm all for suspecting, I love this kind of things, it's just that I like a conversation with arguments as you might have guessed  Anyway, I'm glad we've found a consensus.
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 08, 2015 05:47 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 17:52, 08 Feb 2015.
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Dave_Jame said:
Somehow, I think we, as a community are to blame. We want innovation but without the destruction of tradition. We want the game to follow the trends and be original at the same time. We often send mixed messages, and our opinions change in time. Each of us has his ideal vision and personal opinion, and as such, the community as a whole can never be satisfied.
I wasn’t registered in any Heroes forum at the time Heroes V went out, so I don’t know about all this.
However, I believe it goes without saying that the art provided by NWC and rejected by Ubisoft for Heroes V would have fulfilled much more the expectations of the fan base, at least at that time. Of course, after a decade of Ubi games, and with people who discovered the franchise after 2006, aesthetical debates must have became more and more hard to follow. I’ve recently learned that for some of the people for whom Heroes V was the game that made them discover the franchise, they loved the whole package, universe included, and therefore they have the same hard time receiving the critics of Ashan than some of the long standing fan base has regarding former titles. However, I don’t agree that the community is to be blamed for the decisions made by the company. Is in my firm conviction than when someone helms the franchise, it is his responsibility to, not only learn about it and fill his gaps on the matter, but also to be truly passionate about it. I cannot stomach that Erwan le Breton still never played Heroes II ten years after he took the torch. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that he doesn’t enjoy that much the creation of JVC, the original creator of Heroes of Might and Magic, heck, he even renamed it Might and Magic Heroes. And it does not take a genius to understand that is not so bright to insist on keeping what has been heavily criticized by the players/customers, especially regarding the direction taken for Necropolis ever since Heroes VI.
So even if the community may send mixed messages, I believe is the responsibility of Ubisoft to be able to make sense of things and know by themselves which is the better way, and for this, I don’t see any other options than giving the creative direction to someone who actually knows the franchise better than the fan base itself.
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted February 08, 2015 05:52 PM |
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Zenofex said:
GenyaArikado said:
Zenofex said:
Eh? You defend Ashan's lore bei cause it's stupid?
No, i defend it because i find it good and not messy (H5 non withstanding) and i dont want it to get messy because of "Rule of Cool" like WoW
You sound like a victim of the industry's (and particularly Ubisoft's) mediocrity. "Oh no, don't try harder, you risk messing up. We're fine with our... well, not so smart... and not very good-looking but docile and PREDICTABLE child. Stay away from it, fiends of quality!". That's the attitude which makes the Earth spin.
What do you want? Go to the old heroes where lore was practicaly non existing, creatures looked literally out of their respective movie/tabletop game and had the moral scale of colours of a chess board? Wow thats not mediocre at all /sarcasm
Nostalgia blinds you. H3 is an amazing game for is age but if it was made today it would be called a "generic fantasy game with designs dtraights from D&D, predictable plot and one dimensional characters" because it is one.
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frostymuaddib
Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
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posted February 08, 2015 05:58 PM |
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GenyaArikado said:
Go to the old universe where lore was practicaly non existing
ROFL! You sure know how to make someone laugh
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted February 08, 2015 06:02 PM |
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Yeah, that's so ignorant that it deserves no answer.
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted February 08, 2015 06:06 PM |
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Galaad said:
However, I believe it goes without saying that the art provided by NWC and rejected by Ubisoft for Heroes V would have fulfilled much more the expectations of the fan base, at least at that time.
Agreed
Galaad said:
So even if the community may send mixed messages, I believe is the responsibility of Ubisoft to be able to make sense of things and know by themselves which is the better way
But they can't satisfy everyone! There will be dissapointed fans exactly because of mixed messages. And sometimes they come from long-time fans as well.
Galaad said:
Is in my firm conviction than when someone helms the franchise, it is his responsibility to, not only learn about it and fill his gaps on the matter, but also to be truly passionate about it.
Agreed +
Galaad said:
I cannot stomach that Erwan le Breton still never played Heroes II ten years after he took the torch.
Wait, what?!  I remember he said that he started from H3, but did he said that he never played H2? I'm asking because I myself started from H2 but only after that played H1.
Galaad said:
he even renamed it Might and Magic Heroes.
It was a rebrending. They did it because M&M became more than RPG+TBS, there's CoH, DoC, HO etc. It's just business.
Galaad said:
And it does not take a genius to understand that is not so bright to insist on keeping what has been heavily criticized by the players/customers, especially regarding the direction taken for Necropolis after Heroes VI.
Partially agreed. I'm not with you completely about the Liches, but Spiders in the roster is too much.
Galaad said:
I don’t see any other options than giving the creative direction to someone who actually knows the franchise better than the fan base itself.
Funny thing is - does fanbase itself knows what it wants?  It's very hard question actually, I just narrowed another, more global question.
I'm sorry for answering before/instead of Dave, but I said I'll support him and I'm a man of my word.
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted February 08, 2015 06:08 PM |
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Zenofex said:
Yeah, that's so ignorant that it deserves no answer.
pretty much,
whenever someone stoops to the nostalgia argument it's tantamount to saying "I have nothing of substance to contribute, please stop reading here", lol
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