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| Thread: Heroes of War and Craft |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Kimarous
Supreme Hero
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posted February 08, 2015 08:43 PM |
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Zenofex said:
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Seems like a poor comparison on your part. Jedi and Sith at least have SOME background details - "For over a thousand generations, the Jedi were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic." "Impossible! The Sith have been extinct for a millennium!" At the very least, they HINT at some background details that could be explored in full.
Nagas, though? Do they even ACKNOWLEDGE that Nagas exist? Are they ever mentioned anywhere besides the unit recruitment?
What is your point? Why should every creature have a dedicated piece of text explaining its existence? How are the Nagas important to the M&M/Heroes lore to deserve that? Ewoks are also not explained but managed to beat the bloody, goddamn Galactic Empire! Oh ****, Star Wars has no lore again!
You were the one who compared the absence of Naga lore with the "absence" of Jedi/Sith lore. Besides, there's a difference between details one can easily assume and those we have no clue about.
Ewoks are a poor example. "Where do the Ewoks come from?" They're friggin' indigenous life forms! How hard is that to understand? Also, how they beat the Imperial forces in the immediate area (read: NOT the ENTIRE Empire)? Surprise attack and exploiting flaws.
Anyways, back to my original point. Admiral Ackbar was never really "explained" but one can assume that his race, or at least he, is somehow aligned with the Alliance. Nagas, meanwhile, feel a bit out of place with H3's Academy and we have no idea how they are linked to the faction. Are they summoned beings? A client race? Artificial? Natural? Equal standing? Lower standing? We garner NOTHING about them besides "they exist and are with Academy."
In other words, implied lore > no implications.
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted February 08, 2015 08:43 PM |
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GenyaArikado said:
Hahaha were are your arguments boy? Will you call them out sleeping sun or lizard?
You want arguments for what? WoW = Spiderpolis? Or is it something else? I need more info if you want me to answer. I really do not follow you on this one.
GenyaArikado said:
Anyway lore in the old HEROES of Might and Magic? You got a lot of lore im the M&M but in Heroes?
Yes, there is lore in M&M and Heroes the same way there is Lore in WC and WoW. What is your point? Have you not played the campaigns of those games? If you had you wouldn't ask such a silly question. There is a thing call campaign in H2, H3, H4 (I didn't play H1). Play it, know it.
GenyaArikado said:
Practically means "in practical means". If you have to play other 9 games (of a different genre to top it off) just to know whats the (ie) Naga origin thats not practical at all. To make things worse it had the cohesion of snot.
So what if it is a different genre? WC and WoW are games of different genres and no one is complaining. Not to mention the ridiculous amount of retcons they have to do almost after every single game... And so what if you have to play 9 games? If you want a story, play them, what is wrong with that?
Now, let's use your own argument against you. Why should I play other games in Ashan-universe in order to know Heroes story?
1) Dark Messiah
2) Clash of heroes
3) Duel of Champions
4) Heroes Online
5) Heroes Kingdoms
6) M&MX Legacy
The genre of these games is not TBS which is the genre of Heroes games. To play these games in order to know the story of what happens in a prequel, in prequel of a prequel, in sequel of a prequel, in a sequel that was never continued, in Agyn peninsula... it is NOT PRACTICAL AT ALL. To make things worse it had the cohesion of snot (all your words!!!).
EDIT: In addition, why should I even read their newsletter, Ashan Compedium, or some info on their blog to know what is happening in their lore? I want lore in game, not scattered bits throughout the internet.
GenyaArikado said:
I find it lovely how you choose the ignore the first part of my post because you know its true. Make H3 today and not only it will be generic and bland story wise, it'll have at least two assured lost sues via the beholder and the gorgon creatures
Who ignored what? Quote it. As for the game. Yeah, it was already made and that is H5. And yes the bland story is Ashan story. (And you said you defend/like Ashan lore - how ironic and ridiculous) They didn't want the same universe, but they wanted the same campaign of H3:RoE. I am amazed that they couldn't come up with a new (and potentially better) campaign (and story/plot) with their now lore.
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Because if to access the lore of the Naga you have to play another game then it means the lore in HEROES is PRACTICALly non existant.
... is wrong on all levels but the most obvious is - you have a game universe which consists of all products which are considered canon. No single part of that universe lives its own life if it contains elements related to the other parts. If you are too lazy to find how and where M&M is related to Heroes, that's certainly not a problem of the lore and doesn't make it "non-existent". You can just as successfully call Star Wars I-VI's lore non-existent because it doesn't explain the origins of the Jedi and the Sith, they just pop up in there. Heh.
@Zenofex 
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted February 08, 2015 08:52 PM |
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@Verriker: It would be nice if you could make a point rather then just retort what I say. If you noticed I'm not on any side here. I could do the same as you, but seriosly that would be under us both.
@Sleeping_Sun
Heroes games (1-3) almost never addressed the world they were in. Never spoke about elementals, ancients, guardians etc. This was always prat of MaM, 1-3 had campaigns but those told stories. And rarely more than one long one. There is a difference between Lore (Information about the games setting) and the story.
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted February 08, 2015 08:58 PM |
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Kimarous said:
Anyways, back to my original point. Admiral Ackbar was never really "explained" but one can assume that his race, or at least he, is somehow aligned with the Alliance. Nagas, meanwhile, feel a bit out of place with H3's Academy and we have no idea how they are linked to the faction. Are they summoned beings? A client race? Artificial? Natural? Equal standing? Lower standing? We garner NOTHING about them besides "they exist and are with Academy."
In other words, implied lore > no implications.
There is a lot we can figure out about the nagas from h3: we now they are allied to the wizards of Bracada. We know they have royalty and are as such probably not directly a part of Bracada. They have queens so there must be a large number of royal families also hinting at a somewhat divided or maybe even tribal structure of government. clans maybe? We know they are respected in Bracada as they have higher rank than any human or even genies in the army. they are fast, live in cold climates and appears to live in a matriarchal society. Bondage seems to be popular.
Ackbar looks like a fish and is the not very bright commander of the rebels.
yeah, i think i know what franchise does the "implied lore" better 
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Kimarous
Supreme Hero
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posted February 08, 2015 09:10 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
Ackbar looks like a fish and is the not very bright commander of the rebels.
yeah, i think i know what franchise does the "implied lore" better
Right, because "falling into an ambush that EVERYONE fell into" and "leading a successful attack against the lead capital ship" equals "not very bright commander".
Look, can you guys just leave Star Wars alone? It's an unequal comparison anyway. You want to talk lore? Two words: "expanded universe." Yeah, most of it has RECENTLY been relegated to an alternate universe continuity, but as far as THAT continuity goes, LOTS of explanation and lore.
My main issue wasn't even saying that nagas had terrible lore. It's more "Stop snowing on Star Wars!  "
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted February 08, 2015 09:10 PM |
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Edited by verriker at 21:12, 08 Feb 2015.
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Dave_Jame said:
@Verriker: It would be nice if you could make a point rather then just retort what I say. If you noticed I'm not on any side here. I could do the same as you, but seriosly that would be under us both.
well I am only countering your points because I don't think they hold any water lol,
if you're making them just to be the devil's advocate then I don't see the purpose
if you want me to declare a position then it's that the old universe could have been improved, but never promised anything and achieved some real moments of greatness, while the current one made lofty promises but has failed to live up to every single one of them and is very much inferior,
basically it just has no redeeming qualities for me
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted February 08, 2015 09:15 PM |
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The holiday special is canon.
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted February 08, 2015 09:24 PM |
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Kimarous said:
Right, because "falling into an ambush that EVERYONE fell into" and "leading a successful attack against the lead capital ship" equals "not very bright commander".
Look, can you guys just leave Star Wars alone? It's an unequal comparison anyway. You want to talk lore? Two words: "expanded universe." Yeah, most of it has RECENTLY been relegated to an alternate universe continuity, but as far as THAT continuity goes, LOTS of explanation and lore.
My main issue wasn't even saying that nagas had terrible lore. It's more "Stop snowing on Star Wars! "
hey man, i'm just taking all the info we got from one of the movies. Just like the nagas were only given the info i got from their design, name and position in the line-up. i don't wanna snow on star wars (I find the movies mediocre at best that doesn't belong to the discussion) but there are similarities in that neither are important when you get right down to it (star Wars needed a commander, h4 needed a tier 6 creature. they were supplied). Ackbars backstory and why he is there is not important just as nagas reason to be there is not important. still, implying lore through design, naming and attributes is exactly what h3 did and something you implied they didn't.
My main issue was that you appeared to hack on h3 lack of lore for nagas even though there is a lot to puzzle out so i'd be happy to just lay this to rest. 
i'm kinda impressed with my naga analysis since i know nothing about them
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted February 08, 2015 09:25 PM |
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verriker said:
well I am only countering your points because I don't think they hold any water lol,
if you're making them just to be the devil's advocate then I don't see the purpose
if you want me to declare a position then it's that the old universe could have been improved, but never promised anything and achieved some real moments of greatness, while the current one made lofty promises but has failed to live up to every single one of them and is very much inferior,
basically it just has no redeeming qualities for me
Well I like to be the devil's advocate you see. It is fun for me :-), and it is not fun when the oposing side doesn't contribute the same way.
Well I played most M&M games, of all geners, and as you wrote, the old univers achieved some great moments, but in my eyes they were never caused by lore, they were caused by the gameplay. It is like comparing cars. You may say that a red one is better then the blue one. But it doesn't come down to the colore when yuo want to know which is better, if that makes sence.
To say it short. Niether 4+ worlds was ever well made, coherent or had good writing. Ubi set it mind on make atleast one part OK-ish, lets say they do it for their sake rather then for ours.
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Kimarous
Supreme Hero
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posted February 08, 2015 09:26 PM |
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Avirosb said:
The holiday special is canon.
Well, at least SOME good came out of the new canon's omissions. >_>
Alas, poor Thrawn and KOTOR. At least you still exist in your own timeline, retaining your awesomeness. 
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted February 08, 2015 09:27 PM |
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@Dave
"Because if to access the lore of the Naga you have to play another game then it means the lore in HEROES is PRACTICALly non existant."
"Heroes games (1-3) almost never addressed the world they were in. Never spoke about elementals, ancients, guardians etc."
It might be the case that the lore is at some points weaker than it is in some other games (though I do not agree with this, but then again I'm not a lore expert. I'm sure Cepheus could say much more on this topic than I can), but to claim that it doesn't exist is lack of knowledge. Letters of Lord Ironfist in H1 manual, H3 trailer, I'm not sure if Gem provided some insight about Enroth... (I have to check it) such tidbits count as lore, right? Oh yeah, do not exclude H4 it's still part of that world. Lore is after all... No?
____________
"The age can be wicked to those who walk alone. When I look into the Mirror, I see myself as I might become..." -Freya
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted February 08, 2015 09:30 PM |
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Dave_Jame said:
It is like comparing cars. You may say that a red one is better then the blue one. But it doesn't come down to the colore when yuo want to know which is better, if that makes sence.
Red ones go faster. Everyone knows that.
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Avonu
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
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posted February 08, 2015 09:30 PM |
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Edited by Avonu at 21:32, 08 Feb 2015.
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Kimarous said:
Nagas, meanwhile, feel a bit out of place with H3's Academy and we have no idea how they are linked to the faction. Are they summoned beings? A client race? Artificial? Natural? Equal standing? Lower standing? We garner NOTHING about them besides "they exist and are with Academy."
In other words, implied lore > no implications.
Tower in HoMM3 said:
Tower populations are comprised of creatures bound into service by powerful magic, made on the spot, or allied with the town through ancient pacts.
Naga said:
Wizards often summon magical beasts to protect treasures and sacred sites. Only the most powerful are capable of calling and controlling guardians as powerful as the Naga. Possessed of great strength, skill and patience, Nagas make perfect protectors.
Maybe you don't know what were Naga in NWC worlds but this didn't mean there is "nothing" about them.
Avirosb said:
The holiday special is canon.
Conserding that Lucas himself want(ed) to burn all copies of this... thing, I really don't think it is canon.
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Kimarous
Supreme Hero
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posted February 08, 2015 09:33 PM |
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Can we at least all agree that Destiny's system of "leave the game, go to our website, and read the fluff text on cards you've collected" is a terrible way to go about lore?
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted February 08, 2015 09:34 PM |
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Avonu
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
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posted February 08, 2015 09:36 PM |
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Edited by Avonu at 21:37, 08 Feb 2015.
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted February 09, 2015 06:16 AM |
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Zenofex said:
What is your question?
What do you want? Go to the old Heroes games* where lore was practicaly non existing, creatures looked literally out of their respective movie/tabletop game and had the moral scale of colours of a chess board?
Quote:
That part...
... is wrong on all levels but the most obvious is - you have a game universe which consists of all products which are considered canon. No single part of that universe lives its own life if it contains elements related to the other parts. If you are too lazy to find how and where M&M is related to Heroes, that's certainly not a problem of the lore and doesn't make it "non-existent". You can just as successfully call Star Wars I-VI's lore non-existent because it doesn't explain the origins of the Jedi and the Sith, they just pop up in there. Heh.
I wrote universe instead heroes the first time, im sorry. But the meaning remains the same. The old universe had a lot of lore of course, but in the Heroes games it was nearly non existant, non cohesive and things just happened because they did, no explanation. I just fail to see how Ashan is mediocre compared to that.
Quote:
In the first post you will see that I acknowledge that the old games copied too, but compare what they copied first. Movies, board games and books, at least they had the decency to don't steal from other companies in their own industry, while Ubisoft uses a xerox on whatever the mainstream video games franchises do. Also this thread has nothing to do with the old universe, but with the art direction which is very similar to warcraft's
As i said, if you think they are the same, thats cool. I disagree. A ripoff is a ripoff and (at least in D&D case) they have a videogame now.
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Not to mention the ridiculous amount of retcons they have to do almost after every single game...
thats what i dont want. And the explanation they gave for rebootin the universe is for that same reason
Quote:
And so what if you have to play 9 games? If you want a story, play them, what is wrong with that?
Because i'm not talking about the whole story. I'm saying that stuff like the background of the units should be in their respective game, not in a footnote of the manual of one of games of RPG branch of the franchise and how old HEROES GAMES (not the universe, the HEROES GAMES) were mediocre in that aspect
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Ashan Compedium, or some info on their blog to know what is happening in their lore?
Because you dont have to go read the ashan compendium to read "X thing in game" lore, in units case they have theirs incorporated in the unit screen.
Quote:
Who ignored what? Quote it. As for the game. Yeah, it was already made and that is H5. And yes the bland story is Ashan story. (And you said you defend/like Ashan lore - how ironic and ridiculous) They didn't want the same universe, but they wanted the same campaign of H3:RoE. I am amazed that they couldn't come up with a new (and potentially better) campaign (and story/plot) with their now lore.
So you want to drop ashan story because its bland and ripped off from other games and want to go back to the bland and ripped off from media different of videogames story of Axeoth. Not trying to make any argument here, just making sure i understood you well.
Now can you please stop adressing me everywhere i post? I respond out of cortesy, not out of desire to argue with a rock.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted February 09, 2015 08:06 AM |
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Kimarous said:
You were the one who compared the absence of Naga lore with the "absence" of Jedi/Sith lore. Besides, there's a difference between details one can easily assume and those we have no clue about.
Ewoks are a poor example. "Where do the Ewoks come from?" They're friggin' indigenous life forms! How hard is that to understand? Also, how they beat the Imperial forces in the immediate area (read: NOT the ENTIRE Empire)? Surprise attack and exploiting flaws.
Anyways, back to my original point. Admiral Ackbar was never really "explained" but one can assume that his race, or at least he, is somehow aligned with the Alliance. Nagas, meanwhile, feel a bit out of place with H3's Academy and we have no idea how they are linked to the faction. Are they summoned beings? A client race? Artificial? Natural? Equal standing? Lower standing? We garner NOTHING about them besides "they exist and are with Academy."
In other words, implied lore > no implications.
Man, nobody cares where the Naga come from because they have no relevance to the lore. How hard is this to understand? You created that issue and now you ask me to solve it. Get out of here! Kindly.
Quote:
What do you want? Go to the old Heroes games* where lore was practicaly non existing, creatures looked literally out of their respective movie/tabletop game and had the moral scale of colours of a chess board?
I'm not discussing the creature's looks (although I find most of the new creatures' looks ridiculous). The lore part however is pure nonsense and you are yet to explain why do you even stick to that nonsense so stubbornly.
Quote:
I wrote universe instead heroes the first time, im sorry. But the meaning remains the same. The old universe had a lot of lore of course, but in the Heroes games it was nearly non existant, non cohesive and things just happened because they did, no explanation. I just fail to see how Ashan is mediocre compared to that.
Because the Heroes lore was never supposed to be isolated from the M&M lore? Just because some people chose to perceive it as such or were ignorant to the M&M events doesn't change anything. Armageddon's Blade is a perfect example - NWC wanted to glue M&M and Heroes together once and for all or if you prefer - to reveal the full lore behind Heroes, but that attempt failed. As a result the Heroes "section" of the Might and Magic world remained "uncorrupted" by sci-fi and went down the road of regular fantasy (with inconvenient background). The lore behind it all never changed but some people chose to pretend that it's not there. Amusingly enough, these are usually the same people who complain that Heroes' lore is generic.
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Kimarous
Supreme Hero
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posted February 09, 2015 08:55 AM |
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Edited by Kimarous at 09:07, 09 Feb 2015.
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Zenofex said:
Man, nobody cares where the Naga come from because they have no relevance to the lore. How hard is this to understand? You created that issue and now you ask me to solve it. Get out of here! Kindly.
I responded to you responding to another user on a matter that he brought up. How hard is THAT to understand? I'm not leaving just because you decided to e-scream falsehoods.
Besides, I wasn't "creating an issue and asking you to solve it." I was opposing your use of Star Wars as a poorly thought out metaphor and figured I might as well extrapolate on the existing argument about nagas... an argument you lost when you effectively said "I don't have a proper retort, so shut up."
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted February 09, 2015 09:00 AM |
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Why did you respond then? Your point made no sense several posts ago and still doesn't.
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