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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: Skillwheel Theorycrafting
Thread: Skillwheel Theorycrafting This thread is 10 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 · «PREV / NEXT»
Valen-Teen
Valen-Teen


Famous Hero
UFOlolOgist
posted March 29, 2015 01:29 AM
Edited by Valen-Teen at 01:31, 29 Mar 2015.

Or maybe we get 2 skills which attached to hero class + racial one and others 7 are chosen randomly. I think it would be good looking for fans)

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Protolisk
Protolisk


Promising
Famous Hero
posted March 29, 2015 05:48 PM
Edited by Protolisk at 17:49, 29 Mar 2015.

Maurice said:

The point is that each class has been assigned 10 skills already, seemingly. So when you pick a class, you immediately and automatically pick the 10 skills that are available for development. You won't get access to any of the other skills whatsoever.

In Heroes5, every Hero could potentially get every skill out there - Heroes were just limited to 6 skills total. Here, the total appears to be 10, but you can't get anything else besides the 10 already pre-defined for the Hero Class in question. At least, that's the way it looks like, right now.


Not really. There are 20 total skills in H5, but each class at best could get 6 out of 13 for their chosen class. This situation is very, very similar. Whats worse is that there were only 8 classes in TotE H5, and there are an easy 36 classes in H7. The only difference is 3 skills get excluded per class, when compared to H5. Which is why I said the other 3 skills "went" to the other 5 classes within the faction. And since 3 doesn't cover all the intra-faction differences (there are 5 other classes after all), then it seems very likely that more skills were introduced overall. Some skills probably can't be obtained by some at all (I don't think Necro can get Light magic) but even so, that's analogous to (if I remember correctly) when you play as Necro and attempt to get Light magic, the chance of doing so was so small it didn't matter. Yes, there is a chance, but usually Necro (if I am not mistaken) was already adept at using Dark or Summoning spells, that removing one to get Light, or getting Light added to it, used up so many skill slots that it ended up being counter productive.

True, potential has gone down, seeing as some skills go from an approximate 2% chance per level to, now, 0% chance. So, yes, this system is simplified in that manner. It also lost out on the chained skills. But, looking at H5 vanilla, most of the "chained" skills were so pointless in their prerequisites such as Guardian Angel needing a certain Knight skill in order to be gained. Why is this required? It makes a system more complicated, sure, but complicated isn't necessarily better. Nor is being simplified either. These two systems are just different, I really don't see a strong point for either side of the prerequisite sides. Even still, in TotE proper, there really isn't a "skillwheel" in game per se, instead each skill just kinda listing which abilities were gained, and hover over the skill allowed you to see what was it's prerequisite, and what it is a prerequisite for. However, in this screenshot... no skill is being hovered over. How do we even know there is a prerequisite or not?

In addition, many classes only HAD 3 abilities per skill to begin with, the maybe the possibility of having an advanced or expert one if that class really "needed" it for their prerequisite abilities. If someone could post the old vanilla H5 skill wheel (all I can find is the TotE one) then I can affirm this. Here, it looks as if every skill automatically gets 3 basic, 2 advanced, and 1 expert per skill type. That's far more than H5 had to start with. Now, of course, by TotE, there were more, but that was after 2 expansions making the system better and better. This system doesn't seem as intricate as TotE yet, but, maybe it doesn't need to be. It's already superior (in total skill/ability amount) to vanilla/HoF H5, with signifigant differences to TotE that it is hard to analyze which is truly better just yet.

Though some of it does have merit. What if the three Might classes were all the same class, and the magic classes were all the same class, so that the 10 becomes some combination of of each sub class, probably around 12-15 skills per major class, depending on how different each sub class was. There'd be more skills per class, to be sure. But, seeing some of the problems behind the skill points argument, this just means there'd be more "choosing the best skills every time, so you'd never want to get anything else!" So what would the point be for either a single major class or the sub classes? With one class, you'd have one "best" selection. With three sub classes, you'd have three "best" selections. More diversity. And since there is supposed to be a randomization effect, then getting the "best" is supposed to be very hard, or impossible, due to the luck of the draw. So, again, I'm not seeing a problem just yet with this system, either it being 10 skill per class, and that there are three sub classes per might/magic affiliation, per faction. I suppose if people were looking for a system to knock their socks off, I guess it would be underwhelming. I still see a system that looks very much like H3/4's might and magic heroes per faction, with a skill wheel similar to H5's. Much like the rest of H7 seems to be sizing up to be, this game is a massive amalgamation of all past games. Still, it is sizing up to be this way.

Of course, this is all speculation, based off of one picture. And I am no insider, so I don't have hands on experience with this new skill system, so perhaps everything I am saying is terribly misguided and the system stinks as bad as H6. But, from what I can see, it's not as bad as the H6 system (which was plagued much more by everything being spells and activated abilities instead of intriguing passives and the occasional active) and seems to act similar to the H5 system, somewhat between HoF and TotE, with at least the might and magic differentiation of H3/4 (and I GUESS H6).

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted March 29, 2015 11:27 PM
Edited by Maurice at 23:30, 29 Mar 2015.

Protolisk said:
Not really. There are 20 total skills in H5, but each class at best could get 6 out of 13 for their chosen class.


Are you sure? That's not the way I remember it, so perhaps my memory is failing me. I thought all skills had potential to show up, not 13 out of 20 (which means 7 were excluded). Unless you mean the Warcry skills and Anti-Magic skills?

Edit: Ah, I see what you mean. You exclude the racial skills. There are 12 generic skills and 1 racial skill, one for each faction and with 8 factions that makes for 20 skills total.

But this system is differently. Here, generic skills are unavailable based on Hero class chosen, which is pretty much the first time in the series that such is the case.

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Protolisk
Protolisk


Promising
Famous Hero
posted March 30, 2015 12:39 AM

Maurice said:
Ah, I see what you mean. You exclude the racial skills. There are 12 generic skills and 1 racial skill, one for each faction and with 8 factions that makes for 20 skills total.

But this system is differently. Here, generic skills are unavailable based on Hero class chosen, which is pretty much the first time in the series that such is the case.


Yes, that is what I meant. Though I suppose I could have added an extra 5 or so because technically Barbarians didn't have normal magic skills, but I digress. The point is, due to this system, yes, there may be some helpful skills left out from certain classes. It's hard to tell how big an impact this will have on the game. As far as I can tell though, this specific skill exclusion favors some factions over others, especially Necro. Necro doesn't need Leadership/its equivalent, but nearly all other factions could use it. So, yeah, there are some problems. But, every system has had problems. I do still feel that the skill system is largely similar to H5 vanilla, with additions, but without skill prerequisites and instead of having a selection of 2% skills, it has more 0% chance skills, since they aren't offered at all. We'll see soon enough.

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Storm-Giant
Storm-Giant


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
posted March 30, 2015 04:00 PM

* waiting for Stevie's fifteen pages report *
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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 30, 2015 04:12 PM
Edited by Stevie at 13:24, 31 Mar 2015.

NDA OVER! Now behold the Heroes 6- I mean Heroes 7 Skillwheel, in all its splendor. I'll answer my previous questions I formulated before:

Stevie said:
1. How many skillwheels do we have and according to what (class? faction? universal skillwheel?);
2. How many skills there are in total and what do they do;
3. How many skills a skillwheel should have from the total;
4. How are skills distributed on the skillwheel (Might - Magic - Neutral? another way? or no specific distribution);
5. How many abilities a skill should have (maximum - minimum);
6. How are abilities distributed (according to mastery levels?);
7. Any internal prerequisites and any rules for them;
8. Any external prerequisites and any rules for them;
9. Ultimates, yes or no;
10. What would make good ultimates prerequisites (streamlining? more free pick?)
11. How would the interface look and what are the advantages of your display;
12. Miscellaneous, notes, etc.


1. Each class has its own skillwheel, 6 per faction, 36 in total;

2. There are approximately 30 skills in total;

3. Each skillwheel has 9 skills + 1 Racial skill;

4. Skills are placed mostly randomly on the skillwheel. There are some rules though:
- Racial is always at 12 o clock;
- the 4 skills near the racial, two on the left and 2 on the right, have only 2 mastery levels. That means that since we have Novice, Expert and Master, those 4 skills are expert on any skillwheel;
- the 5 skills on the lower half of the skillwheel have 3 mastery levels, so the maximum;
- the skills in between the focused lines are what the texts on the blog described as "main skills". They are not necessarily starting skills. And by main skills it is understood that they conclude with an Ultimate ability. Since there are 3 focused skills, one being the racial, that means there are 3 Ultimates;

5. Each skills has either 6 or 5 abilities (perks) depending on the max mastery level available to that skill. And an important note, you can pick ALL of them if you want to. So no restrictions of 3 like in Heroes 5;

6. Distribution is 3 Novice, 2 Expert and 1 Master abilities;

7. If I correctly recall, you pick Novice -> then a Novice ability -> then you can pick Expert -> then an Expert ability -> then Master -> Master ability.

8. No external prerequisites at all;

9. There are 3 Ultimates as I explained above;

10. Here's the thing, in the built we played, ultimates could be unlocked by having 1 Novice, 1 Expert and 1 Master perks in that skill. However, after talking with Oakwarrior until he probably grew bored with me, they wanted to make picking all 6 of the perks of that skill mandatory to get the Ultimate. I hope I'm not wrong on this, I asked him like 3 or 4 times;

11. The interface looks like... that...

12. I can only tell you my personal impression. This. Is. A. Disaster. There are minimal differences between this and the Heroes 6 skill system, the major one being the Wheel display. However, there's still hope. I am not sure if this is all set in stone, and from their reaction and feedback collection it probably isn't. So with enough complaints and rageback, it will probably change. I'm not saying this to give you false hope but this is really what I believe.
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Storm-Giant
Storm-Giant


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
posted March 30, 2015 04:27 PM

Is there even any replayability in using the same hero class?

Not liking this at all
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PandaTar
PandaTar


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
posted March 30, 2015 04:33 PM

It's like the potential of making it better is floating around, but no one uses it. It might have the incorporeal ability supposed to have on ghosts and no one can fetch it properly. Can't make up much more from that, actually. You saw, then, only Stronghold hero skill set, I presume? Only for the sake of comparing to another skill set from another faction.
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"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS Ė Portal 2

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Zombi_Wizzard
Zombi_Wizzard


Famous Hero
posted March 30, 2015 04:37 PM
Edited by Zombi_Wizzard at 16:38, 30 Mar 2015.

The fact that Skills don't need prerequisites (internal and exteranl) is great news.

You don't want prerequisites if you have random skills. Remember, there are now random skills, if you choose that option.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted March 30, 2015 05:04 PM
Edited by Maurice at 17:04, 30 Mar 2015.

Stevie said:

- the skills in between the focused lines are what the texts on the blog described as "main skills". They are not necessarily starting skills. And by main skills it is understood that they conclude with an Ultimate ability. Since there are 3 focused skills, one being the racial, that means there are 3 Ultimates;


What do you mean with "not necessarily starting skills"?

Quote:
7. If I correctly recall, you can pick the mastery levels without having perks in them. So you can take Novice, then Expert and Master and skill the Master ability only. Of course, unlocking the abilities requires to unlock the mastery level first;


So you mean that in order to take a Novice ability, we need to have Mastery level of the skill in question first? Or am I misinterpreting what you mean here?

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Protolisk
Protolisk


Promising
Famous Hero
posted March 30, 2015 05:32 PM

I guess the first question is, is the random mode truly in? Because that honestly solves lots of the H6ish problems.

Stevie said:


1. Each class has its own skillwheel, 6 per faction, 36 in total;

2. There are approximately 30 skills in total;

3. Each skillwheel has 9 skills + 1 Racial skill;




Does this mean that the 30 skills in total include the racials? As in, are there 30 skills, 24 not being racials, or 30 skills not being racials?

Stevie said:
4. Skills are placed mostly randomly on the skillwheel. There are some rules though:
- Racial is always at 12 o clock;
- the 4 skills near the racial, two on the left and 2 on the right, have only 2 mastery levels. That means that since we have Novice, Expert and Master, those 4 skills are expert on any skillwheel;
- the 5 skills on the lower half of the skillwheel have 3 mastery levels, so the maximum;
- the skills in between the focused lines are what the texts on the blog described as "main skills". They are not necessarily starting skills. And by main skills it is understood that they conclude with an Ultimate ability. Since there are 3 focused skills, one being the racial, that means there are 3 Ultimates;


The skill locking on the 4 adjacent skills, is probably bad. Why is there only 2 levels? Why can't there be a Master skill level for these? Did they explain?

Stevie said:
5. Each skills has either 6 or 5 abilities (perks) depending on the max mastery level available to that skill. And an important note, you can pick ALL of them if you want to. So no restrictions of 3 like in Heroes 5;

So, you can pick all of them, huh. With less restriction. I guess I can see why this is like H6, since there is less restriction, but, again, there is a random mode, it's not like you have to always choose. Still, that was surprising.

Stevie said:

7. If I correctly recall, you can pick the mastery levels without having perks in them. So you can take Novice, then Expert and Master and skill the Master ability only. Of course, unlocking the abilities requires to unlock the mastery level first;


Okay. So even less restrictions. Makes "choose your own skills" more min-max-ish I suppose. Random seems like it would fix this, but you'd still need to get master (or level 3 or whatever they call it) which could still be problematic with the luck of the draw, so being super choosy might not be so bad.


Stevie said:
10. Here's the thing, in the built we played, ultimates could be unlocked by having 1 Novice, 1 Expert and 1 Master perks in that skill. However, after talking with Oakwarrior until he probably grew bored with me, they wanted to make picking all 6 of the perks of that skill mandatory to get the Ultimate. I hope I'm not wrong on this, I asked him like 3 or 4 times;



So, you'd need master level skill, being 3 levels worth, and three perks, being another three levels worth, and then a final seventh level point for the ultimate? Just ti make sure it is clear.
Stevie said:
11. The interface looks like... that...

12. I can only tell you my personal impression. This. Is. A. Disaster. There are minimal differences between this and the Heroes 6 skill system, the major one being the Wheel display. However, there's still hope. I am not sure if this is all set in stone, and from their reaction and feedback collection it probably isn't. So with enough complaints and rageback, it will probably change. I'm not saying this to give you false hope but this is really what I believe.


Perhaps I am not a connoisseur of graphical interfaces, but it seems fine to me. And I see a lot of differences between what you describe and H6. Firstly, racials being a skill and not something that is just made better every 5 levels or so. Secondly, no spells within the ability. Since not all the skills are open to every class, you won't have the overriding "Might Hero" or "Magic Hero" in each faction, as H6 had the systems being so open and available that beyond some elements not being available, every hero from every class could look identical baring some healing spells, especially the Might heroes. Instead, here, I guess there is a sort of "forced" diversity, but the classes, having only 10 of 30 skills, means that no faction should ever play alike. This alone is far different from H6 that the comparison, to me, is mind boggling.

Unless your comparison is due to skill choosing, which instead I could understand. Yes, you could choose the best of the best every time. or you don't HAVE to. And unless I am mistaken, although you say there is a lot of push for these Ultimate skills, they remind me of easier to reach ultimates of H5. Those seemed wildly powerful and "needed", but unless i am mistaken, it was typically a good idea to not go for them, many other options were more "cost effective". Then again, with the removal of prerequisites, perhaps it is more cost effective now. But now there's three. Per class. So again, within a faction seems pretty diverse (as each hero should only have one of the three "designated" skills in common with it's faction buddies). And since there is no way to ever fill the whole wheel in one character, there should be diversity within a single class, since you have, if I am right, 4 skills worth 2 tiers and 5 perks, meaning 7 levels for those skills, and 3 tiers and 6 perks for the other 6 skills, plus three ultimates, you have 85 different things to spend your skill points on with only 30 points to spend. This, of course, baring the idea that whole skills are Eagle Eye in effectiveness, but I could only see this be the case for some perks, not whole skill branches.  

Of course, you played it, so you clearly have more of a feel for the game. But as far as I can tell, yes, there is H6-choosyness, but if there is a random feature, then, this still looks, to me, like a streamlined H5. Perhaps streamlining is bad, I can't tell. But it doesn't seem like the disaster you make it out to be.

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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 30, 2015 05:58 PM

@Maurice, Main Skill = Skill that leads to an Ultimate. We speculated that it meant starting skills, but it doesn't mean that. And also a Hero's starting skills, as in having points spent in those skills, could coincide with his main skills.

In that Chieftain's skillwheel for example, the Main skills are Bloodrage, Defense and Warfare. But the Hero may not start with mastery levels + abilities in any of those.

"So you mean that in order to take a Novice ability, we need to have Mastery level of the skill in question first? Or am I misinterpreting what you mean here?" - You have to have Novice Defense first to be able to take a Novice Defense ability. Does that answer it?

@Protolisk, "I guess the first question is, is the random mode truly in? Because that honestly solves lots of the H6ish problems." - There was no randomness in the build I played.

"Does this mean that the 30 skills in total include the racials? As in, are there 30 skills, 24 not being racials, or 30 skills not being racials?" - The question I asked was how many skills there are in total and they said about 30. They didn't specified if they considered Racials as skills.

"The skill locking on the 4 adjacent skills, is probably bad. Why is there only 2 levels? Why can't there be a Master skill level for these? Did they explain?" - This is old news really. It was predictable that there would be restrictions. The idea behind it is to have more variation in the skillwheels, so some Heroes are really good at something and some are average.

"So, you'd need master level skill, being 3 levels worth, and three perks, being another three levels worth, and then a final seventh level point for the ultimate? Just ti make sure it is clear." - In the build I played I had to take 3 (mastery levels) + 3 abilities + the ultimate itself = 7. How they want to do it is 3 (mastery levels) + 6 abilities + the ultimate = 10.
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fuChris
fuChris


Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
posted March 30, 2015 06:10 PM

Stevie said:

6. Distribution is 3 Novice, 2 Expert and 1 Master abilities;



Were Master perks that much better then Novice and Expert ones?

Random skills at levelup can only solve the problem of having the same build everytime if perks are mostly of equal power.
If there is one perk that is better then all then it will be always chosen and just make the problem worse.
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"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted March 30, 2015 06:14 PM
Edited by Maurice at 18:15, 30 Mar 2015.

Stevie said:
@Maurice, Main Skill = Skill that leads to an Ultimate. We speculated that it meant starting skills, but it doesn't mean that. And also a Hero's starting skills, as in having points spent in those skills, could coincide with his main skills.


Ah, I understand now. I thought you meant to say that not all skills on the Wheel were set in stone . A pity that they are. I wouldn't mind having them set 3 to 5, including all those with an Ultimate, but other than that it should have been open, player's choice, preferably at random.

Quote:
You have to have Novice Defense first to be able to take a Novice Defense ability. Does that answer it?


Check, it does. I also understand the sparkly lines in the skillwheel a bit better now. I thought that maybe they were random animations between the skills, just to show something moving in that screen. Apparently, it's also functioning as an indicator for an Ultimate.

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Protolisk
Protolisk


Promising
Famous Hero
posted March 30, 2015 07:25 PM
Edited by Protolisk at 19:28, 30 Mar 2015.

Stevie said:

"So, you'd need master level skill, being 3 levels worth, and three perks, being another three levels worth, and then a final seventh level point for the ultimate? Just ti make sure it is clear." - In the build I played I had to take 3 (mastery levels) + 3 abilities + the ultimate itself = 7. How they want to do it is 3 (mastery levels) + 6 abilities + the ultimate = 10.


Well, then, that means in order to get all three ultimates, you'd have to spent literally all your points into those three skills. Which kinda reminds me of how you'd need to devote practically all your level-ups in order to get the ultimate in H5 (which was around around 25 out of your precious 30 oops, that a nigh unattainable 40 in H5. Getting confused with H6. Is the level cap 30 in this game?). Which to me seems fair. You can't ignore your other 7 skills in order to grab your three ultimates; some choices will need to be made.

Unless they really are that powerful. Which would suck.

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castiel_789
castiel_789


Adventuring Hero
posted March 30, 2015 07:39 PM
Edited by castiel_789 at 18:38, 31 May 2015.

@Stevie
So what you saying is there no crossing of skills or ability (like cold steel needing master of ice in H5) ? Basically the wheel is linear with no ability being derived from a combination of perk and skill ?

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fuChris
fuChris


Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
posted March 30, 2015 09:30 PM

What were the different ultimate skills like? Active, passive or racial?
How early could you get an ultimate skill? at level 5? 15? 30?
Were they the obviously best skill choice for a fully levelled hero?

If they managed to give each class 3 different ultimates then this might not be so horribe.

Btw, are warcries unlockable skills like in H6 or can they be learned in town.
How many warcies were there?(counting the activated might abilities) Closer to H5 or H6 levels?
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"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.

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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 30, 2015 11:16 PM

castiel_789 said:
@Stevie
So what you saying is there no crossing of skills or ability (like cold steel needing master of ice in H5) ? Basically the wheel is linear with no ability being derived from a combination of perk and skill ?


Exactly.

Quote:
What were the different ultimate skills like? Active, passive or racial?
How early could you get an ultimate skill? at level 5? 15? 30?
Were they the obviously best skill choice for a fully levelled hero?

If they managed to give each class 3 different ultimates then this might not be so horribe.

Btw, are warcries unlockable skills like in H6 or can they be learned in town.
How many warcies were there?(counting the activated might abilities) Closer to H5 or H6 levels?


More passives, I haven't seen that many actives to be honest, maybe even none.
You could get an ultimate at about level 7-8 in that build. They were really good perks, to give you an idea, one ultimate was on par with the two Expert abilities from that skill.

I didn't play with warcries, I literally have no clue there. Btw, there's not so much you can do in only 4-5 hours of gameplay, unless you really power through it. I talked more with the devs as I was playing, and also had to do the interviews so...
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler

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foxxxer
foxxxer


Promising
Famous Hero
posted March 31, 2015 05:44 AM

So my questions are:

1. As I watched in some video you spend a skill point to pick/advance a skill or ability. So for fully development of a skill you need 9 points for the normal skills (3 for the skill and 6 for the perks) and 10 points for the main skills (3 for the skills + 6 for the perks + 1 for ultimate perk). My questions is how many skill points do you receive per level-up if you remember?

2. Do the skills boost some hero stats or just unlock abilities (perks)? To clarify, lets take Destiny skill, is there something like Novice boost +X heroís Destiny stat, Expert +Y and Master +Z. Or Air Magic, Novice permits your hero to learn 2nd level of Air spells, Expert 3rd level and Master 4th level.


PS. As Stivie said this mechanics is a complete disaster. I donít know, maybe the people are still under the Stronghold effect or in denial but the lack of discussion about this issue it really bothers me. YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND that you have only 3 options of skill combinations for Might and 3 options for Magic heroes per faction. Out of these 6 options you canít experiment on different combinations (tactics) at all. The devs killed the gameplay for me once again. As I said on the previous page, keep those main skills set in stone to define a certain class through the ultimate perks but leave us to decide for rest 7 skills!

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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 31, 2015 01:23 PM
Edited by Stevie at 13:27, 31 Mar 2015.

You get 1 point each level.

Each mastery level comes with a bonus, it's not just for unlocking abilities.


Btw, I've been wrong on one account:

"7. If I correctly recall, you can pick the mastery levels without having perks in them. So you can take Novice, then Expert and Master and skill the Master ability only. Of course, unlocking the abilities requires to unlock the mastery level first;"

In fact it's like this - You pick Novice -> then a Novice ability -> then you can pick Expert -> then an Expert ability -> then Master -> Master ability. I was mistaken that you can pick Mastery levels regardless of having abilities. You must necessarily have 1 ability in order for the next mastery level to unlock. I'll correct that part in my previous post.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler

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