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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Modders Workshop > Thread: [MOD] Might & Magic: Heroes 5.5
Thread: [MOD] Might & Magic: Heroes 5.5 This Popular Thread is 248 pages long: 1 30 60 90 120 150 180 ... 198 199 200 201 202 ... 210 240 248 · «PREV / NEXT»
magnomagus
magnomagus


Promising
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted July 07, 2016 12:57 PM

@ferementrus: you are right about Markal, I copied the desc from resourcefulness effect, but it should have been from the old spoils of war skill.

It is impossible for me to modify the combat AI and Quantomas only worked on the Adv map AI and Ubisoft refused to combine his work with the 3.1 combat Ai so end of story.

I suspect the existance of different role models for heroes can cause sometimes the adventure map Ai to behave strange.

MMH5.5 can be played with the 3.1 AI if desired by using MMH55_utility
giving Ai 8 heroes will make it far too slow.

i can only add 1 entry to the spellbook.

@thelran: do not play campaign with town conversion
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zkc
zkc

Tavern Dweller
posted July 07, 2016 01:34 PM

magnomagus said:
It is impossible for me to modify the combat AI and Quantomas only worked on the Adv map AI and Ubisoft refused to combine his work with the 3.1 combat Ai so end of story.

Can't Quantomas hand over his sourcecode to the "general public"?

magnomagus said:
MMH5.5 can be played with the 3.1 AI if desired by using MMH55_utility

No "neutral heroes"  in "utility". These seem to be the best addition from the point of view of making game more difficult (if only more configurable...).

magnomagus said:
giving Ai 8 heroes will make it far too slow.

Not on 1v1 map.

How do I change what titan is raised into (and converted into in Shrine of Netherworld) by necromancer?
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Promising
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted July 07, 2016 01:48 PM

It's a pity you people were not around years ago when I tried to convince Quantomas Neutral heroes were broken. This case is now closed.

Conversion costs are based on avg town cost, so they cannot be wrong.

the shrine of netherworld cannot be modified.

the old necro tables were also filled with unimmersive conversions, at least with the current setup you know what you get and it is balanced.


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Archmage1
Archmage1

Tavern Dweller
posted July 07, 2016 02:09 PM
Edited by Archmage1 at 14:23, 07 Jul 2016.

dredknight said:

Currently I am playing Heretic (dark proficiency) he is really potent late game but he really lacks the means to fight PvEs early game. No  constitution and damage in the early game. Actually due to the nature of his class (exausting enemy strength/ mind manipulation) he has no damage even at the late game. What helps is that armies are bigger so he creates bigger chaos with dark. I tried him in combination with destruction but all he benefits from it is stuns/reductions from the perks (master of fire/ice/storms). Damage is still somehow low.


From what we've done, the magic heroes are really weak early, and comparable to might late(Although I haven't ran into puppet master/frenzy)(Or if I did, healing tent is amazing).(This does assume that might gets mass haste, or mass slow, to keep init balanced)(Yes, I have played barbarian, but my army ended up being around 3 times the size of my opponents(I got a ring of machine affinity.  600 hp healing out of the first aid tent, plus ballista mastery hero...)).(Summoning is a must for magic, because without it, can't PvE very effectively)(Light and Dark are all well and good, but they tend to not allow for lossless victory without the right high level spells(Regen, Resurrection, Blind and PM).  Destructive... well, the one time I really played with it, skill distributions were not my friend, and I didn't get the mastery perks(Or adv/exp destructive) until far too late.  Without any 50% boost artifacts, it did not work as a solo skill.  
Mana recovery abilities are a must.(Yes, you could go back to a mana well(If one exists), or wait in town, but... consider how far behind that puts you in movement).
I'd honestly be tempted to say that magic is too weak at the moment.  But I'm not certain that is magic's fault, or the result of magic heroes not having attack/defense without mass spells, or my tendency to not build up the mages guild enough because I can't get the resource mines from the archmages/arcane archers/elder druids that always guard them.(Yes.  It is a scientific fact that they always guard your resource mines.  And that it's very hard to not take crippling losses without the higher level spells you can't learn without the resource they guard.)

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dredknight
dredknight


Supreme Hero
posted July 07, 2016 02:38 PM

I agree with your points regarding PvE grinding but magics are anything but inferior to might. There is more tactics now than the eye can see. Just look a bit deeper .
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Ereinion156
Ereinion156


Adventuring Hero
posted July 07, 2016 06:02 PM

I was just playing MMH5.5 RC8 on the map "A survival war" and I saw something strange: After I killed the enemies main hero (he was playing Inferno, I Fortress) and got, among others, the Amulet of Necromancy, my main hero Ingvar was suddenly able to raise the dead. So I suddenly had 185 points of Dark Energy and got offered to use them after each fight. Even after giving the Amulet to another hero. I am totally sure non of my heroes had the Necromancy skill, not only because dwarfes canīt get this skill through levelling up and no Witch huts on this map.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Promising
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted July 07, 2016 07:08 PM

The only way i know of how this would be possible is by using the script function that converts a hero into a necromancer regardless of having the skill.

i never used that script function, so it should be a custom map/mod conflict.
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Ereinion156
Ereinion156


Adventuring Hero
posted July 07, 2016 07:18 PM

I had no other mods but HOMM5.5 installed. I just reinstalled the game some days ago, so I hadnīt even one additional map. Not even ARMG-made ones. And "A survival war" is definitely a standard map. So I donīt know where script-issues could come from.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Promising
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted July 07, 2016 07:24 PM

Ok, then it is probably a buggy script in the map itself.
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Thelran
Thelran

Tavern Dweller
posted July 08, 2016 01:20 AM

magnomagus said:


@thelran: do not play campaign with town conversion

I am not even sure how I turned that on and I have much less an idea of how to turn it off. And a question on the side, why does the haven AI player turn his cities to academys to begin with?

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zkc
zkc

Tavern Dweller
posted July 08, 2016 01:25 AM
Edited by zkc at 10:56, 08 Jul 2016.

So the AI is working quirky. I have found list of issues Quantomas listed as unresolved on his own site:
http://www.bonddisc.com/ref/h5/ai.htm#tasks_topics

My question is - why H5AI_31j version of Quantomas' mod is used by this mod rather than last build H5AI_31n_beta? What AI issues of those linked above and quoted below are still unresolved in MMH 5.5?

Quote:
LIMITATIONS OF THE EXISTING BUILD

Issues to be fixed/implemented as soon as possible:

Strategic balancing by algebraic factorization is not applied
   This feature still needs implementing.
Can't tell
Fog of war is not applied correctly
   The evaluation of objects hidden in the shroud requires masking of the values by estimated averages.
Can't tell
AI doesn't use the Dimension Door and Summon Creatures spells
   Support for these spells still needs implementing.
Can't tell, 3.1 ToE AI used it properly; possible gamebreaker
AI doesn't dig for the Pearl (Tear???) of Asha
   Obelisk search and dig still needs implementing.
Can't tell, 3.1 ToE AI did it properly; obvious gamebreaker
AI doesn't pursue refined mission goals
   Currently this feature is only implemented for the campaign. On scenarios and random maps the AI pursues the defeat all objective only.
Can't tell, 3.1 ToE AI did it properly; obvious gamebreaker
Preprocessing delay at the first turn
   The AI does a lot of once per game preprocessing when it is first invoked, i.e. when the player commits his first turn. Depending on the map size this can take 10 to 60 seconds. Instead this preprocessing needs to be performed in the background before the player commits his first turn, which will eliminate the delay.
I can confirm, but not a biggie, just make yourself a cup of tea and return to computer.
AI path animation glitches
   In rare cases the AI hero walks through impassable obstacles. This is a bug in passing the computed and finally selected path to the animation layer. Additional verification of the selected path needs to be applied. This doesn't affect gameplay because the hero ends his move on the correct tile.
Don't care



EDIT
Most annoying Adventure Map AI shortcomings of Quantomas AI used in this mod (luckily this mod was implemented over 3.1 exe too, thank you magnomagus & co!!)are:
- AI rushes to kill "wandering stacks", but leaves intact all treasures and artifacts these stacks guard AND ignores some guarded buildings after killing guards (e.g. magic shrines)
- AI is unable to predict range of my hero if it uses "Instant travel" spell - I took out a secondary hero and captured AI castle exploiting that

With Town Portal spell at AI disposal it should be very hard to capture AI towns if only AI properly computed range and strength of my heroes. It seems Quantomas released half-baked AI and never had time or will to complete it properly, ending up with product inferior to Ubisofts ToE 3.1 AI. Not completing Adventure Map AI he never even started fixing Combat AI (that in ToE 3.1 is still really bad, despite acceptable Adventure Map AI).

Taking into account Quantomas' lack of time and/or interest in finishing H5 AI reanimation, I think the best solution is to incorporate the only good change he made (neutral heroes - still needing some tuning work) and somehow fallback to default 3.1 AI.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Promising
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted July 08, 2016 10:33 AM

31n is actually 3.1.15 and is older than 31j

I can think of many issues I would consider higher priority than the ones listed above.


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magnomagus
magnomagus


Promising
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted July 08, 2016 11:06 AM

Quote:
- AI rushes to kill "wandering stacks", but leaves intact all treasures and artifacts these stacks guard AND ignores some guarded buildings after killing guards (e.g. magic shrines)


only if it doesn't need it, doesn't affect Ai combat strength

Quote:
- AI is unable to predict range of my hero if it uses "Instant travel" spell - I took out a secondary hero and captured AI castle exploiting that.


The instant travel with TOE Ai was a total dissaster sometimes causing 10 min wait time.

Quote:
With Town Portal spell at AI disposal it should be very hard to capture AI towns if only AI properly computed range and strength of my heroes. It seems Quantomas released half-baked AI and never had time or will to complete it properly, ending up with product inferior to Ubisofts ToE 3.1 AI. Not completing Adventure Map AI he never even started fixing Combat AI (that in ToE 3.1 is still really bad, despite acceptable Adventure Map AI).


Not true, i have seen many cases were the TP spell was properly used.

Quote:
I think the best solution is to incorporate the only good change he made (neutral heroes - still needing some tuning work) and somehow fallback to default 3.1 AI.


Impossible

All in all 31j is far from perfect but still better.
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zkc
zkc

Tavern Dweller
posted July 08, 2016 11:09 AM
Edited by zkc at 11:20, 08 Jul 2016.

Read edit above. Quantomas AI as it is is not worth time playing against. It is incomplete and in no aspect better/more challenging than original ToE 3.1 (I never noticed 10 min time delay and played ToE relatively long a few years ago). In some aspects (read above) it falls gamebreakingly short of its competitor. If you used the best build available, its hopeless, but luckily MMH55_Utility.exe replicates all mod changes over original ToE 3.1 and it seems the only way ahead. It would be great if you managed to replicate "neutral heroes" some day, even if it is not possible now and at current state of art you don't see any way to implement it.

AND:
magnomagus said:
Quote:
- AI rushes to kill "wandering stacks", but leaves intact all treasures and artifacts these stacks guard AND ignores some guarded buildings after killing guards (e.g. magic shrines)


only if it doesn't need it, doesn't affect Ai combat strength

It DOES affect AI strength RELATIVE to mine, cause not gathering treasures and artifacts == not denying them to me <=> non-zero risk of me getting boost (even using very weak hero). Obvious AI programming mistake.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Promising
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted July 08, 2016 11:31 AM
Edited by magnomagus at 11:33, 08 Jul 2016.

I don't care which Ai you play, but in my opinion you make fuzz over nothing, i always play 1 vs 3 or 4 allied Ai players and it is much more fun than TOE.

You wait an hour longer over the course of the game so you cannot exploit IT? I don't care about exploits I just don't use them.

The AI will never be as good as a human player no matter what, the game is too complex for that, that's why you should always take many at the same time. Just give the AI a break and don't exploit it and enjoy the fight. Also it is hardly relevant for the fun factor whether it pursues a special mission goal.
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zkc
zkc

Tavern Dweller
posted July 08, 2016 12:23 PM
Edited by zkc at 12:28, 08 Jul 2016.

magnomagus said:
I don't care which Ai you play, but in my opinion you make fuzz over nothing, i always play 1 vs 3 or 4 allied Ai players and it is much more fun than TOE.

So you think replacing 1 malfunctioning AI with its 4 clones allied vs you (assume all resources 1 AI had got split into 4 and evenly distributed) will change anything, aside from getting cap of 32 AI recruited heroes (technically my Quantomas-AI (Q-AI) opponent never got even 8 recruits it could get)?
I would not call pinning Q-AI shortcomings "making fuzz". Even more - "over nothing", considering AI overhaul was what game really needed and Q-AI failed to deliver so far.

magnomagus said:
You wait an hour longer over the course of the game so you cannot exploit IT? I don't care about exploits I just don't use them.
So the AI that was supposed to "challenge me without cheating" requires me to refrain from some gamewise legal actions ... In times of Heroes III AI it was not necessary ...

magnomagus said:
The AI will never be as good as a human player no matter what, the game is too complex for that, that's why you should always take many at the same time.
Once again - how multiplying malfunctioning AI instances is supposed to change anything? Re-running same flawed algorithm results in yet another set of flawed outcomes.

magnomagus said:
Just give the AI a break and don't exploit it and enjoy the fight. Also it is hardly relevant for the fun factor whether it pursues a special mission goal.
Well, I re-visited Heroes V after several years of "giving the AI a break" in hope the AI overhaul took place, only to see the only effort was put on hold before it fully replaced original AI. I can understand why Quantomas does not allocate any more resources into a project that he cannot benefit from and wish him luck with his planned Heroes-like game. But I cannot call the incomplete work I played against an AI better than original ToE 3.1. That's all.

I wish you luck with your project and please don't take feedback you receive as kind of personal insult. I have a lot of respect to the effort you put into MMH55, it could give excellent PvP experience, even if it cannot challenge in PvC.

Cheers.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Promising
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted July 08, 2016 12:50 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 12:54, 08 Jul 2016.

You keep talking as if the AI is malfunctioning, but that is not true, the AI is not more or less malfunctioning than the H3 or H5TOE AI, but all existing HOMM AI offer very different results depending on the map and settings you are playing. I have played games vs QAI in which there was almost no stuff left behind on the Adventure map and none of the issues you brought up had any impact. I have also had very negative experiences with the other AIs.

Quote:
So you think replacing 1 malfunctioning AI with its 4 clones allied vs you (assume all resources 1 AI had got split into 4 and evenly distributed) will change anything, aside from getting cap of 32 AI recruited heroes (technically my Quantomas-AI (Q-AI) opponent never got even 8 recruits it could get)?


there is no splitting of resources and you look at it the wrong way IMO, you shouldn't try to see the AI as a simulation for 1vs1 Human vs Human games. In such games the challenge is to be smarter than your single opponent (there is no existing homm AI that can offer that). Against the AI you should opt for a very different but equally fun challenge. The challenge vs multiple AI players is to beat the 1st and 2nd AI players with so few losses that you can still beat the 3rd (and optionally 4th) AI player even though they have far bigger armies (thanks to cheating). In my opinion such games are often even more fun than playing against humans because they are played much faster, have more than 1 epic battle and still offer a lot of challenge.

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dredknight
dredknight


Supreme Hero
posted July 08, 2016 01:08 PM

magnomagus said:

there is no splitting of resources and you look at it the wrong way IMO, you shouldn't try to see the AI as a simulation for 1vs1 Human vs Human games. In such games the challenge is to be smarter than your single opponent (there is no existing homm AI that can offer that). Against the AI you should opt for a very different but equally fun challenge. The challenge vs multiple AI players is to beat the 1st and 2nd AI players with so few losses that you can still beat the 3rd (and optionally 4th) AI player even though they have far bigger armies (thanks to cheating). In my opinion such games are often even more fun than playing against humans because they are played much faster, have more than 1 epic battle and still offer a lot of challenge.





That is whats up on heroes 3.
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zkc
zkc

Tavern Dweller
posted July 08, 2016 01:52 PM
Edited by zkc at 14:15, 08 Jul 2016.

Magnomagus, with all due respect, could you please start reading paying more attention?

magnomagus said:
You keep talking as if the AI is malfunctioning, but that is not true*, the AI is not more or less malfunctioning than the H3 or H5TOE AI, but all existing HOMM AI offer very different results depending on the map and settings you are playing. I have played games vs QAI in which there was almost no stuff left behind on the Adventure map and none of the issues you brought up had any impact. I have also had very negative experiences with the other AIs.

*I have pointed to you WHAT is wrong and WHY it is wrong. It is Q.E.D. It does not matter whether in YOUR games the malfunctioning of AI had impact or not. Even less matters what experiences you had with other AIs. And H3 AI was way better if I remember correctly (it's over 10 years now I last played vs it) - not that it matters in any way in disproving my observation.


Now you obviously misunderstand the quote below:
magnomagus said:
Quote:
So you think replacing 1 malfunctioning AI with its 4 clones allied vs you (assume all resources 1 AI had got split into 4 and evenly distributed) will change anything, aside from getting cap of 32 AI recruited heroes (technically my Quantomas-AI (Q-AI) opponent never got even 8 recruits it could get)?


there is no splitting of resources and you look at it the wrong way IMO,


What you don't understand is I was writing that replacing 1 AI that has in its disposition x castles and a vector of resources Y with n allied AI instances each controlling x/n castles and having at its disposal Y/n resources will not produce any more challenge than single instance of AI (save more weak heroes to slay).

magnomagus said:
you shouldn't try to see the AI as a simulation for 1vs1 Human vs Human games. In such games the challenge is to be smarter than your single opponent (there is no existing homm AI that can offer that). Against the AI you should opt for a very different but equally fun challenge. The challenge vs multiple AI players is to beat the 1st and 2nd AI players with so few losses that you can still beat the 3rd (and optionally 4th) AI player even though they have far bigger armies (thanks to cheating). In my opinion such games are often even more fun than playing against humans because they are played much faster, have more than 1 epic battle and still offer a lot of challenge.

This easily degrades to 1 AI controlling all castles and resources the 4  AIs you imagined have (save more weak heroes to slay and assuming map is small enough to be properly/fast enough explored using 8 AI heroes).

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Promising
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted July 08, 2016 02:14 PM

Quote:
*I have pointed to you WHAT is wrong and WHY it is wrong.


I perfectly understand what you wrote, I was only pointing out a similar list of weaknesses could be written for the H3 and TOE AIs and none of all 3 AIs can be considered 'malfunctioning' because of their defects. The results will simply vary based on the maps you play with them.

Quote:
What you don't understand is I was writing about was that replacing 1 AI that has in its disposition x castles and a vector of resources Y with n allied AI instances each controlling x/n castles and having at its disposal Y/n resources will not produce any more challenge than single instance of AI (save more weak heroes to slay).


You cannot make this kind of assumptions if you don't consider the alignments of the towns and the extra scripted bonuses multiple players get in comparison to a single player.


Quote:
This easily degrades to 1 AI controlling all castles and resources the 4  AIs you imagined have (save more weak heroes to slay and considering map is small enough to be properly/fast enough explored using 8 AI heroes).


That's nonsense and only proves you haven't played the type of game I'm talking about, since the AI will not even take over each other's castles if they are allied.
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