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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Modders Workshop > Thread: [MOD] Might & Magic: Heroes 5.5
Thread: [MOD] Might & Magic: Heroes 5.5 This Popular Thread is 248 pages long: 1 30 60 90 ... 98 99 100 101 102 ... 120 150 180 210 240 248 · «PREV / NEXT»
dredknight
dredknight


Supreme Hero
posted December 21, 2015 12:17 PM

What is overkill?
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matod
matod


Adventuring Hero
posted December 21, 2015 12:27 PM

overkill is when 100 dragons attack one peasant and did not loose they turn cause of it , bacuse in reality they will just fly by and nothing will happend but in heroes 1 pasant is counting same as the 100 dragons thats the problem , with overkill if 100 dragons attack 1 peasant , peasant will die but the dragons are still on thier turn because the 1 peasant just does not count as a regular army bacause of big strenght difference.So that basicaly means that you cannot block enemy units anymore with 1 weak unit if the damage of the attacker will enought to bypass overkill settings of damage-total stack health percent lets say it will be 95 %.

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dredknight
dredknight


Supreme Hero
posted December 21, 2015 08:10 PM
Edited by dredknight at 20:33, 21 Dec 2015.

I see.

I think this will ruin one part of the strategy in heroes. Blocking is huge part of the game .

@Magno, I have some feeling that MAster archer upgrade (the double shot one) always executes his special and on both hits. Is this how it should be?

P.S. Happy 100-page-thread and the recent 31k+ posts on the moders forum ^_^.

P.S. 2: Just got an idea. You can make the Magma shrine subscriptable (like the war machine factory) it will give stone one per week.
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Nordos
Nordos


Known Hero
posted December 21, 2015 09:08 PM

Is it just me or is the Titan weaker than the Storm Caller?

The only difference Stat-wise is: Titan has 20 more HP (a bit more then 10%), but the Storm Caller is a shooter.

If you, for example, compare a Stalker with an Assassin (Stalker being Melee while Assassin being a shooter), you can clearly see a difference.

Stalker have 25% more attack, 33% more defense, 33% more damage and around 7% more HP. (and even as far as an additional ability)


Sure, the Titan has 'Call Lightning'. which could somewhat replace the shooter ability, but... it's too weak.
A Lightning deals 40 damage. This damage, while not reduced by defense, it is also not increased by offense.
Meaning, it is always subpar compared to an anctual attack, since Titans are Level 7 creatures.
The only time when it would be somewhat interesting, would be when the defense of the enemy creature is higher (e.g. a T7 creature on an enemy hero with a lot of defense while you have none).

Stormcaller, in comparison, have no Melee Penalty. So, they deal the same amount of damage in melee as Titans do, while they are able to shoot. Their ability, while dealing next to no damage, does debuff shooters, which in turn could be interesting.
The Titan simply seems worse.


So, Suggestion: Raise the damage of the Call Lightning, I would even go to as far as ~100 or at very least around 70.
The roles would be: If you are a mage and have next to no attack, Titans are better to kill High Level creatures (e.g. T7. Remember the HoMM III cinematic where a Titan wrestles with a Dragon?). If you have Attack, or if you fight against weak creatures, you prefer the Storm Callers. (Still, if there would be no debuff to shooters, the Storm would be totally useless as well ^^ Damage is next to non-existant after all).
It would also make Titans a bit more challenging when encountering in the open field, IMO.

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dredknight
dredknight


Supreme Hero
posted December 21, 2015 09:37 PM

@Nordos, try them in big battle then raise your questions again.

Here are a few main points that I said already earlier which make your theory not viable.

1. What you said actually - 40 damage despite enemy defense. This means you can hit very tough units to penetrate their armor.2
2. You mentioned offense and defense dont (same as point one but different view) but this is actually good for academy as their heroes are the weakest when it comes to might. Their might hero gets only 50% between attack and defense on level up which is the lowest in the whole game for hero of that class. So basically that lighting will make more damage against lower tier units because they will have much favourable stats that the titan.
3. Titan Lighting does not make less damage than Storm caller shooting because he has 50% distance penalty which lowers his damage from 40-70 to merely 20-35. This means that even if he has higher stats than the enemy creature he may not achieve the 40-per titan per shoot.
4. Titan magic attack may lack offense boost, archery boost (and so on) BUT its damage can be increased as high as 60 damage points per titan which is quite impressive. Figure this out on your own.
5. Titan is immune to retaliation. He can cast the spell even when blocked which is quite nasty.

I have tested him in a PvP battle and they are really awesome, not better or worse. Just different.


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Nordos
Nordos


Known Hero
posted December 21, 2015 10:03 PM
Edited by Nordos at 22:06, 21 Dec 2015.

PvP it may hold true somewhat, but it still isn't as strong as the Storm Caller, IMO.

Towards you points:
- it happens rarely, that the difference in attack to defense is more than 20 (since Titans start out with 30, and most lower tier have around 10 defense or less). So, it only is useful against Higher Tiers, and only in PvP. Against Creep? Far less useful than Storm
Also Don't forget that you can influence Creature Stats (Mini Artifacts to increase Attack, Spells like Rightous Might ...).

- Yeah, you can raise the damage of the Titans by wearing 2 pieces of the Sar Set, but you can also eliminate the shooting penalty by using an artifact (Golden Bow), so yeah, I am not taking it into account. Especially since you don't have that at disposal in all situations.

- The only point I concede: He can do it while blocked. But IMO that is not a high enough Bonus. Most of the times, you will need to draw retaliation, or have already done so in a large fight. Having only the Titans, or fighting only against Unlimited Retaliation (mostly lower tier) happens rather rarely.



While they *may* be advantageous when facing against an enemy Hero, in most cases they are weaker than their counterpart.




EDIT: I still think that Destro is missing somesthing :S Dunno how to fix it, though.
Implosion with Expert Destro dealt only a bit more damage than Wasp Swarm (Hero had Wasp Swarm special, I know, but still ....), making Wasp Swarm always superior (afterall, though a bit less damage, it costed less mana AND stuns enemies).
Is there no way to boost Destro in the lategame? :S

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Promising
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted December 21, 2015 11:46 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 23:49, 21 Dec 2015.

@Nordos: In your previous post you undervalue dredknights most important point: 3

Wasp swarm and implosion are ok (multiplier = 10x vs 50x), but there maybe something wrong with wasp swarm special.

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Belisarius
Belisarius


Known Hero
posted December 22, 2015 04:36 AM
Edited by Belisarius at 04:56, 22 Dec 2015.

Are Academy 7th lvl upgrades the best damage dealers from distance in the game? Second thing, how about comparing them to other races lvl 7 creatures. Are they fine?

Barbarians, I believe recently "received a buff", by fixing shatters. Now shatters reduce corresponding magic school by two skill levels all the way up to lvl 5 spells. So until proved otherwise by testing/playing, I think they would be fine. About Town Gate and Town Portal, maybe I missed something, by I believe they can use both spells.

Back to my game, (warlock with necromancy) I will give full report when finished. Also will try to make some interesting videos and screenshots. Although, I must say, it is d4 w4 m5, I own 9 towns, one AI is gone, the other two have two towns each. There are 24 towns overall on map. So even while AI looks like is very much proactive playing, I do not see how it is possible at this point for AI to manage to win the map. On the other hand AI heroes are having with them armies comparable to my heroes armies. A little better, must say. Still they do not have town numbers, and I am using Town Gate to defend mine, and also to bring army to the "frontier" and expand to new towns...
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matod
matod


Adventuring Hero
posted December 22, 2015 07:22 AM

Nordos i agree ,
titans are useless fighting neutrals comapared with strom callers even if you use gargoiles to reduce elemn resistance.. i think damage should be bosted to around 60. Yes they can be better in pvp but this is too litlle since game is about blocking a making unreturned dmg to the neutrals (speaking about pvp ,imposible dificulty with strong or very strong monsters ,random maps from ARMG)

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matod
matod


Adventuring Hero
posted December 22, 2015 08:39 AM

oh yes and you forget about luck , with ranged attack is possible to get and also archery aply can be aplied..

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dredknight
dredknight


Supreme Hero
posted December 22, 2015 09:43 AM

I dont see issue with titans. Actually if you see such issue with them you need to tell the same for a share of other faction creatures because some of their upgrades are really not living up to the game expectation.

For example - Fortress tier 1 unit upgrade alternatives (the %  damage reduction is so much better than the stand guard perk after week 1-2).

Inferno demons - fireball demon upgrade suck big, big, time. You need 2 moves to use it - one to go next to a creature and one to execute the fireball. On the other hand you can only cast that spell once and it is useless after that. Basically this upgrade is worthless after week 1. (IMO the +2 HP bonus and +1 defense do not compensate for the great damage and mobility the grunt offers. Also grunts can hop as many times as they want).

Necropolis - ghost upgrade. Basically both upgrades give snow perks as both of them require for the ghost to be in melee range. 99% of the time the creature has exhausted all its mana and/or half of its shots or the enemy has ammo cart so nothing happens. What saves them is some nice variation in the stats which actually makes difference when picking up.

Sylvan treants - Savage treants is the 100% pick. The stat (attack/def/HP) difference is not such game changer unlike the immune to slow (in PvP is great!) and Rage of the forest which makes the tree pure killing machine by giving it big Attack and initiative boost at the same time.



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magnomagus
magnomagus


Promising
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted December 22, 2015 11:09 AM

It was never the intention to have the titans do an equal amount of shooting damage. They are supposed to be tactically different. So storm lords are shooters and titans are melee tanks that can also do a little shooting. If titans are too weak then I would not boost call lightning but their HP or primary skills.
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Nordos
Nordos


Known Hero
posted December 22, 2015 12:02 PM

dredknight said:
Inferno demons - fireball demon upgrade suck big, big, time. You need 2 moves to use it - one to go next to a creature and one to execute the fireball. On the other hand you can only cast that spell once and it is useless after that. Basically this upgrade is worthless after week 1. (IMO the +2 HP bonus and +1 defense do not compensate for the great damage and mobility the grunt offers. Also grunts can hop as many times as they want).

Well, partly true. But if you want Blocker (Ballista Hero), the +2 HP can make a difference.
Still, I would agree that they need a further Buff

dredknight said:

Necropolis - ghost upgrade. Basically both upgrades give snow perks as both of them require for the ghost to be in melee range. 99% of the time the creature has exhausted all its mana and/or half of its shots or the enemy has ammo cart so nothing happens. What saves them is some nice variation in the stats which actually makes difference when picking up.

As you said, the Stats are different. And IIRC, the range for the Poltergeists was their movement range, was it not?
Though I do prefer Spectres - against some creatures, it is actually more useful (some creature use low mana buff spells. The Shadow Mistress, for example, can cast up to 3 times)

dredknight said:

Sylvan treants - Savage treants is the 100% pick. The stat (attack/def/HP) difference is not such game changer unlike the immune to slow (in PvP is great!) and Rage of the forest which makes the tree pure killing machine by giving it big Attack and initiative boost at the same time.

I prefer the Ancient Treants. Maybe not in an endfight, but while creeping.
The difference in Defense, when taking Roots, can be huge.
Though maybe slightly buffing their defensiv stats to compensate for 'Immune to Slow' could be done.
I like seeing different views on those creatures, though. Any other problems?


Haven might be the T1.
Miliz' Bash ability is IMO slightly inferior to the Brute's Brutality. Their only other difference is switched attack and defense, which doesn't make that much of a difference.

Clergyman, the stats of Cerlics and Zealots are the same, but Zealots have an (often rather powerful) additional ability.
Spells, IMO, are also superior. Slow and Haste are rather counterbalanced, same with Disrupting Ray and Stoneskin.
While the Clerics Dispel could be useful, IMO, Confuse is far more powerful.
Only slight advantage is Bless instead of Righteous Might - as long as your Hero does not have Bless on expert
(And no, the additional amount of shoots does not make a huge difference)



Well, I haven't played enough with different factions to jugde the creatures.

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dredknight
dredknight


Supreme Hero
posted December 22, 2015 12:53 PM

You are right. I forgot about take roots so yes this equals the things a bit.
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Skeggy
Skeggy


Known Hero
posted December 22, 2015 01:26 PM

Since seer/wizard has the ability to use artificer skill no matter where it is positioned, wouldn't be nice that knight/paladin has the same possibility? What is the special benefit of light magic for a paladin? So, why not put the combat as the first skill in both knight and paladin class, or, if that is too much of a heresy, perhaps paladins could have some special effectivity with certain light magic spells, besides their specialization, or something like a pariah-like for paladins that boost spell power for light magic. +5?, or gives positive moral effect. +2?

Same thing with ranger and warden. I can speculate hypothetical druid trade-off avenger -> occultism, but, I cannot see the possible reason for Warden not to have avenger skill. Avenger instead of combat in the first position. Does it work if not in first position?

Perhaps leadership should also have couterspell perk, or in some manner boost magic resistance?

Also, titans do 60 damage only with Elemental Gargoyles near target, Sar-Issus Regalia has zero effect. It is somewhat low damage. If titans should be considered melee, perhaps speed of 8? Let's see those giants walking. And, still I have the same problem with Armor of Dwarven Kings. Hill fort just isn't trading anything for anything. Perhaps Armor of Dwarven Kings trade-off should happen somewhere else? Hill fort isn't some particularly special building? Perhaps

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matod
matod


Adventuring Hero
posted December 22, 2015 01:28 PM

Only way to decide this discusion is tournament !  who is with me ? i suggest medium map standart template very strong monsters imposibble difficulty , comunications thru skype or on forum and tungle , bracket is no problem also

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Promising
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted December 22, 2015 03:20 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 15:24, 22 Dec 2015.

A good method for comparing alternate upgrade is to translate only the differences between them in to % and then list the abilities against each other:

Quote:
For example - Fortress tier 1 unit upgrade alternatives (the %  damage reduction is so much better than the stand guard perk after week 1-2).


Let's take those guys as example:

mountain guard = +1A,+1D = +3.33% damage +3.33% durability

shield wall vs hold ground + defensive stance = not easy to compare but I think we all have a feeling shieldwall is a bit better, so the +1A,+1D is a good compensation for that.

but wait mountain guards also have -1 ini? and there is nothing left for that to compensate. Conclusion: -1 ini is unjustified, mountain guard is underpowered.

Now for Inferno T2 I don't see an issue:

+2D = +6.66%, +2HP is actually +15% = +21.66% durability total!

on top of that +1 speed and they can be gated. No issue here.
The fact that explosion is pathetic is not even relevant.

Quote:
And, still I have the same problem with Armor of Dwarven Kings. Hill fort just isn't trading anything for anything. Perhaps Armor of Dwarven Kings trade-off should happen somewhere else? Hill fort isn't some particularly special building? Perhaps


Can you tell me on which map this bug occured?
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Skeggy
Skeggy


Known Hero
posted December 22, 2015 03:53 PM

magnomagus said:

Can you tell me on which map this bug occured?


Well, I haven't yet tried those new generated maps if that's what you are asking. I like to play old maps with this new mod.
What is interesting is that every other artifact set is acting as it should.
I even try to create new maps using MMH55 Editor, tried both types of Hill forts, same result, Hill fort isn't doing any kind of exchange.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Promising
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted December 22, 2015 04:17 PM

Well for me it works so I have to dig deeper.

If it happened on an included map, please tell me which one.

Could you upload a save file from a default map on which the bug occurred?
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Skeggy
Skeggy


Known Hero
posted December 22, 2015 04:57 PM

magnomagus said:

Could you upload a save file from a default map on which the bug occurred?


map file
http://s000.tinyupload.com/?file_id=97131812712403775560


save file
http://s000.tinyupload.com/?file_id=86202598484122566258



It's a slightly modified map, just to illustrate bluntness of the problem. No other saves, no other maps, no other nothing.

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