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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Modders Workshop > Thread: [MOD] Might & Magic: Heroes 5.5
Thread: [MOD] Might & Magic: Heroes 5.5 This Popular Thread is 323 pages long: 1 40 80 120 160 200 240 280 ... 298 299 300 301 302 ... 320 323 · «PREV / NEXT»
magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted October 08, 2017 05:24 PM

Quote:
You theoretically support by settings but practically doesn't play at these settings, doesnt' check how balance changes are works at these settings.


No you did not understand, since I practically play at these settings and also check how balance changes work at these settings.
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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted October 08, 2017 05:31 PM
Edited by Nargott at 17:46, 08 Oct 2017.

magnomagus said:
No you did not understand, since I practically play at these settings and also check how balance changes work at these settings.

This will be good if you show replay/video of such quick game (meeting at first month) with 2.5% stats.
Because all videos I see were about 50+ dragons.

The video can clearly show if there are any problems or there is OK.

What is wrong about 2,5% stats at early game?
At 21 level Might hero will have +13 physical stats against Magic hero. Plus more artifacts to physics (and skills of cause, but skills are almost the same as in MMH5.5).
In 5% stats there is about +25% of meat advantage or higher (with artefacts).
In 2,5% stats - only +12% of meat advantage.

How Might hero will compensate this difference? Is new difference enough to perception of the hero as Might? What about lower levels?

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted October 08, 2017 05:46 PM

Quote:
This will be good if you show replay/video of such quick game (meeting at first month) with 2.5% stats.


I can also ask you to provide video evidence for everything you claim, but don't do it in this thread please, it has enough content.

Quote:
Because all videos I see were about 50+ dragons.


I have never posted any videos.
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted October 08, 2017 05:50 PM

Quote:
What is wrong about 2,5% stats at early game?
At 21 level Might hero will have +13 physical stats against Magic hero. Plus more artifacts to physics (and skills of cause, but skills are almost the same).
In 5% stats there is about +25% of meat advantage or higher (with artefacts).
In 2,5% stats - only +12% of meat advantage.

How Might hero will compensate this difference? Is new difference enough to perception of the hero as Might? What about lower levels?


This is very easy to fix, for starters, make hero attack & war machines scale similar to early destructive/summoning magic and use bigger immediate stat boosts on perks.
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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted October 08, 2017 05:51 PM
Edited by Nargott at 17:58, 08 Oct 2017.

magnomagus said:
I can also ask you to provide video evidence for everything you claim, but don't do it in this thread please, it has enough content.

I do not require proof, but you do not give any theoretical or practical evidence, therefore, the words regarding the support of early games do not inspire confidence.
In my case, I always cite detailed arguments.

Quote:
Because all videos I see were about 50+ dragons.

But it does not mean that these videos do not exist
See videos where peoples write that your mod is good because suppoting very late game, it's true. But never about early game.

Quote:
This is very easy to fix, for starters, make hero attack & war machines scale similar to early destructive/summoning magic and use bigger immediate stat boosts on perks.

And I'm leading to that, if you do this, it will be quite another matter.
2,5% stats may be good for early game if you correctly adapt it for early game but you did not write anything about this.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted October 08, 2017 05:57 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 17:58, 08 Oct 2017.

Quote:
In my case, I always cite detailed arguments.


No you don't, you make vague claims like 'kill early game' only looking at my 2.5% proposal in isolation, while in reality hundreds of other changes will go along with it.
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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted October 08, 2017 06:00 PM
Edited by Nargott at 18:10, 08 Oct 2017.

magnomagus said:
No you don't, you make vague claims like 'kill early game' only looking at my 2.5% proposal in isolation, while in reality hundreds of other changes will go along with it.

I write about what I see. Now I can't see any of changes which improve difference between Might and Magic at early game but see changes that weaken it.

If you add Shatters, Shatters do magic weaker, if magic is weaker, so magic difference between Might and Magic is weaker.
Physical difference is weaker because 2.5% or 3.33% stats are weaker than 5%.

But if you will add more starting profile stats, like +1 for each 5% of stat, there will be a good fix.

For example, Knight with starting stats of 6/10/2/2 (30/50/10/10%).

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted October 08, 2017 06:03 PM

Quote:
2,5% stats may be good for early game if you correctly adapt it for early game but you did not write anything about this.


Just a few pages back I wrote I had scaled average damage of hero attack at 70% exactly to early spell damage, it is not my problem you only take into account what I write on one page of the thread.
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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted October 08, 2017 06:12 PM
Edited by Nargott at 18:19, 08 Oct 2017.

magnomagus said:
Just a few pages back I wrote I had scaled average damage of hero attack at 70% exactly to early spell damage, it is not my problem you only take into account what I write on one page of the thread.

Because this is not important, if we see at difference.
The main power of Might is army (passive skills).
The main power of Magic is hero (active skills).
This is principled difference.
Giving to might hero stronger "magic-type" (activated) abilities make it stronger but reduce the difference from magic heroes.
Good balance is not only equation but creating or saving difference also.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted October 08, 2017 06:17 PM

Quote:
The main power of Might is army (passive skills).
The main power of Magic is hero (active skills).


Yes but you don't need to follow this strictly when balancing 2.5% system, you can add more hero power to might early and more army power to magic later.
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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted October 08, 2017 06:23 PM
Edited by Nargott at 18:42, 08 Oct 2017.

magnomagus said:
Yes but you don't need to follow this strictly when balancing 2.5% system, you can add more hero power to might early and more army power to magic later.

In terms of equation can, but difference will be weaken, so instead of Might vs Magic battle, you get at early game something like Magic vs Magic battle, where both heroes able to create strong "spells" and near the same army power.

EDIT:
The next thing about 2.5 or 3.33% stats is weakening artifacts. For example, let's take minor +2 stat artifact. We have battle for it, and hard battle (if guards are strong) but what we get? Only +2 of 2.5% attack (which giving ~+3.5% extra statistic damage)?
I can not speak for all players, but personally I hate having difficult battles for so little bonuses. If battle is hard, award must be great too.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted October 08, 2017 06:30 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 18:42, 08 Oct 2017.

Quote:
In terms of equation can, but difference will be weaken, so instead of Might vs Magic battle, you get at early game something like Magic vs Magic battle, where both heroes able to create strong "spells" and near the same army power.


visual difference is more important than statistical.

Also this improves variation in battle, if magic hero is all about hero power then it will just be: defend, defend, cast, defend, defend, defend, cast etc.

Quote:
The next thing about 2.5 or 3.33% stats is weakening artifacts. For example, let's take minor +2 stat artifact. We have battle for it, and hard battle (if guards are strong) but what we get? Only +2 of 2.5% attack (which giving ~+3.5% extra damage)?


very easy to fix.
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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted October 08, 2017 06:43 PM
Edited by Nargott at 19:00, 08 Oct 2017.

magnomagus said:
very easy to fix.

Easy if you agree that it need to be fixed.
Don't count me as opponent, my task is find and identify possible problems, and if you find any fixes for it, it means that dialog is constructive.

EDIT:
If I will start to offer direct solutions instead of pointing out problems, so there is little use, because we have different priorities for the game.

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dabuthegreat
dabuthegreat


Adventuring Hero
posted October 08, 2017 06:53 PM
Edited by dabuthegreat at 18:57, 08 Oct 2017.

Nargott said:
I do not require proof, but you do not give any theoretical or practical evidence, therefore, the words regarding the support of early games do not inspire confidence.
In my case, I always cite detailed arguments.


I'm sorry but this is rediculous. The only thing you post is "I have X something of data/experience" and question all Magno's decisions. Your posts have absolutely nothing in common with "detailed arguments". What's worse is that you are interested in only one type of game and ignore everything else.

This thread got a little messy. We should focus on current issue that's being discussed and it's speed of units. I'm really curious what will come out of it. I wanted to ask though, what was OP with T6 of Academy? They aren't particulary fast right now.


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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted October 08, 2017 07:05 PM
Edited by Nargott at 19:12, 08 Oct 2017.

dabuthegreat said:
I'm sorry but this is rediculous. The only thing you post is "I have X something of data/experience" and question all Magno's decisions. Your posts have absolutely nothing in common with "detailed arguments". What's worse is that you are interested in only one type of game and ignore everything else.

Sorry, but it is not my problem that you don't see it, numbers and arguments.
I have questions for any decision not only Magno, but every people, including myself. This is the main point of criticism.
I am not interested in PvE, accordingly I am not an expert in this field, so rarely write about it.
It is better that the consequences of the change at PvE were analyzed by those people who like to play it.
My point is PvP, and early PvP in particular, so I am interested in it and wrote about it.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted October 08, 2017 07:12 PM

Quote:
This thread got a little messy. We should focus on current issue that's being discussed and it's speed of units. I'm really curious what will come out of it. I wanted to ask though, what was OP with T6 of Academy? They aren't particulary fast right now.


The blue ones are good, but the ksatra does overload of damage in 6-tile area.
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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted October 08, 2017 07:13 PM
Edited by Nargott at 19:40, 08 Oct 2017.

Ksatra is much stronger because of powerful splash ability, so having -1 speed is correct and logic, but not enough (in my opinion).
So I can offer +1 ini to blue in additional.

EDIT:
But it's important to make sure that in PvE people will not stop taking alt rakshas, because PvE efficiency and PvP power of the same units are different things not necessarily coinciding.

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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted October 08, 2017 07:48 PM
Edited by Nargott at 19:52, 08 Oct 2017.

I have some questions about this.
If you want to have minimal changes, why:
Quote:
Ancient Treant 8 ini, 5SP, 170HP, other treant no changes

(I have nothing against because non-conservative player, but do you sure that it is need to change?)

Quote:
Academy T5 -1SP, +5HP

(academy is not rushing faction, isn't it?)

Quote:
Dungeon T4 -1SP, +3 primary stats
= weakening
Quote:
Fortress T6 -1SP, +2A, +1D
= weakening

So I had wrote than +1 speed is equal to +4-5 of 5% stat (and +8-10 of 2,5% stat). It is not my personal opinion but tournament practice of many players of HRTA (PvP). But my personal opinion is that in PvE speed is even more important than stats.

Quote:
Experiment: Haven T5 +50% damage but with range penalty ability from dungeon T1

It is interesting and approximately justified.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted October 08, 2017 08:00 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 20:12, 08 Oct 2017.

Quote:
   Quoteungeon T4 -1SP, +3 primary stats

= weakening


I know, but they were borderline overpowered.

Quote:
   Quote:Fortress T6 -1SP, +2A, +1D

= weakening


Not the same thing, they can use strike abilities in first turn and in second turn 7 or 8 is less important.

Quote:
   Quote:Ancient Treant 8 ini, 5SP, 170HP, other treant no changes

(I have nothing against because non-conservative player, but do you sure that it is need to change?)


I don't see any reason why this is not an improvement

Quote:
Quote:Academy T5 -1SP, +5HP


(academy is not rushing faction, isn't it?)


Don't understand what you are getting at? This makes them less rushing

Quote:
So I had wrote than +1 speed is equal to +4-5 of 5% stat (and +8-10 of 2,5% stat). It is not my personal opinion but tournament practice of many players of HRTA (PvP).


Speed cannot be translated in stats because depends on ability to do something else in first turn and

8 to 9 < 7 to 8 > 6 to 7 > 5 to 6

etc.

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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted October 08, 2017 08:08 PM
Edited by Nargott at 20:25, 08 Oct 2017.

magnomagus said:
Not the same thing, they can use strike abilities in first turn and in second turn 7 or 8 is less important.

Only Flame Lord have strong distance ability.
Thunder Thane have much weaker distance ability. So for them it is weakening.

EDIT:
Quote:
I don't see any reason why this is not an improvement

Yes, this is improvement as many, many things we can do. But not each thing is cost enough to be done, if you are paying "cost" for every change (you had write that earlier try to avoid changes).
For example, I can offer 3 speed for T1 dwarves, most likely that this is an interesting improvement because this unit is strongest at his tier and because 3-speed melee unit is unique. But do you want to do this change only for change?

Quote:
Don't understand what you are getting at? This makes them less rushing

I don't understand why it is necessary. Why genies must be slower and  thicker.
So I personally dislike it because another one flyer have speed 7, but many non-flyers have speed 8.

Quote:
Speed cannot be translated in stats because depends on ability to do something else in first turn and
8 to 9 < 7 to 8 > 6 to 7 > 5 to 6
etc.

It is not important because every stat has value ("cost money"). But yes, if unit have strong distance ability, speed is less important, you are right.
I haven't agree with your speed relative estimation, but this is not important too.
8 to 7 is the most important difference in PvP because rushing tactics is popular. Only for that difference players like to buy +1 speed artifact. Not for upping 4 to 5 etc. So they buy it for upping speed of several creatures to 8 and are ready to sacrifice cost equal to +4-5 of 5% stats.

In PvE speed 8 can block shooters at the first turn (tactics), but 7 can't so easy.

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