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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Modders Workshop > Thread: [MOD] Might & Magic: Heroes 5.5
Thread: [MOD] Might & Magic: Heroes 5.5 This Popular Thread is 323 pages long: 1 40 80 120 160 200 240 280 ... 299 300 301 302 303 ... 320 323 · «PREV / NEXT»
magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted October 08, 2017 08:19 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 20:25, 08 Oct 2017.

Quote:
tournament practice of many players of HRTA (PvP).


By the way, this can impossibly be the reasoning behind arriving at an exact mathematical number.

Quote:
I don't understand why it is necessary. Why genies must be slower and  thicker.
So I personally dislike it because another one flyer have speed 7, but many non-flyers have speed 8.


I don't like it from logical perspective but in gameplay, academy has 3 shooters + 2 flyers one having 8 speed, +1 speed from artifacts, so this faction can basically deliver damage everywhere on the battlefield whenever they want.
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StrikerX
StrikerX


Known Hero
The Bringer of Rain
posted October 08, 2017 08:23 PM
Edited by StrikerX at 20:52, 08 Oct 2017.

magnomagus said:


After a lot of deliberation I think I have come up with scheme of minimalist changes that significantly reduce the issue, but can also be justified as just generic balance/variation improvements:

Haven T7 -1SP
Sylvan wind dancer -1SP, agility +2D per tile
Ancient Treant 8 ini, 5SP, 170HP, other treant no changes
Sylvan T7 -1SP +10HP
Dungeon T4 -1SP, +3 primary stats, no changes to hydras
Red dragon -1SP (could use a nerf anyway), remove minimalist Defense nerf, no changes to Black
Inferno, no changes to T3 and Nightmare, only Hell Stallion -1SP +2 min damage
Leaping range 3-7
Academy T5 -1SP, +5HP,
Ksatra Dmg 24-32, -1SP (those needed to be nerfed anyway)
Vampire Princes -1SP (could use a nerf anyway)
Fortress T6 -1SP, +2A, +1D

--

Experiment: Haven T5 +50% damage but with range penalty ability from dungeon T1


Why leave T5 Nightmare's at 8 and lower most other T7 and T8. Haven's T7 depend on having the 8 to build charge dmg.  They would have to waste a turn to move 1 tile but T6 Nightmares would still be able to rush and possibly make the other stack lose there turn.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted October 08, 2017 08:27 PM

Quote:
and nerfing T7 and T8 would be a heavy nerf to other factions like Haven.


This is impossible to follow.
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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted October 08, 2017 08:29 PM
Edited by Nargott at 20:40, 08 Oct 2017.

Quote:
By the way, this can impossibly be the reasoning behind arriving at an exact mathematical number.

Of cause, and exactly number is not real (because depends on unit and situation).

But if you offer +3 of 2.5% stat instead of +8-10 which in some situations players are ready to buy, there is a high probability that you are mistaken.
I think that +6-10 of 2.5% stat is near, not less than 6.
But practically, T6 dwarves are best T6 so some nerf isn't bad.

Quote:
I don't like it from logical perspective but in gameplay, academy has 3 shooters + 2 flyers one having 8 speed, +1 speed from artifacts, so this faction can basically deliver damage everywhere on the battlefield whenever they want.

This faction have ability to create mini-artifacts for "unlimited" speed, so your change has little value.

Quote:
Leaving a T5 Nightmare's at 8 and nerfing T7 and T8 would be a heavy nerf to other factions like Haven.  There T7 depend on having the 8 to build charge dmg.  They would have to waste a turn to move 1 tile but T6 Nightmares would still be able to rush and possibly make the other stack lose there turn.


What is strange that author had wrote that elves and demons are that factions which can easy to overtake Magic classes by physical damage. But elves have rushing nerf while demons haven't any nerf (except leapers).

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted October 08, 2017 08:38 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 20:47, 08 Oct 2017.

Quote:
I think that +6-10 of 2.5% stat is near, not less than 6.


I disagree, for example in PvE they need 2 turns to approach you regardless of 7 or 8, but they will hit so much harder with +10.

Quote:
This faction have ability to create mini-artifacts for "unlimited" speed, so your change has little value.


Perhaps, but it is something at least.

EDIT: Ok I think I have better idea for Academy that offers more variation:

only djinn vizier -1SP and also -1SP on the gargoyle upgrade with immunities, but not the one with vulnerabilities.

fortress, perhaps only T6 flame version -1SP
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StrikerX
StrikerX


Known Hero
The Bringer of Rain
posted October 08, 2017 08:41 PM
Edited by StrikerX at 20:56, 08 Oct 2017.

magnomagus said:
Quote:
and nerfing T7 and T8 would be a heavy nerf to other factions like Haven.


This is impossible to follow.


Possibly was a bit confusing  Edited above post.

I mean it looks like your lowering speed of 8 to 7 for most factions but keeping Nightmare at 8?  T7 of Haven depend on the 8 more than Nightmare plus are harder to obtain and less of and Nightmare's can not only do significant damage but cause the other stack to lose there turn.

Treant's in general already seemed slow to me in current version.

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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted October 08, 2017 08:45 PM
Edited by Nargott at 20:50, 08 Oct 2017.

magnomagus said:
I disagree, for example in PvE they need 2 turns to approach you regardless of 7 or 8, but they will hit so much harder with +10.

Don't understand your PvE, maybe I am weaker player in it?
But 8 for me is very important (because of ability to take easy tactics and block shooters on the first move).
If not tactics, there are also +1 speed for aura or artifact, but these variants are more difficult to have.

In EvP units with 8 speed are much more dangerous than 7 because you can't hide your large units avoiding attack.

Do you agree that at least +6 of 2.5% stats is fair for +1 speed? (not for archers of cause)

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted October 08, 2017 08:54 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 20:57, 08 Oct 2017.

@Nargott: only thing I can say in some situations I prefer +1SP over +12A, but in others I would take +3A already over +1SP

Quote:
Treant's already seemed slow to me in current version.


That's why I made them faster for them +1 ini >> -1 SP

@StrikerX: Angels are already extremely powerful, even with 7 SP, so I'm  considering moving any lost power to tier 5.

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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted October 08, 2017 09:09 PM
Edited by Nargott at 21:26, 08 Oct 2017.

magnomagus said:
@Nargott: only thing I can say in some situations I prefer +1SP over +12A, but in others I would take +3A already over +1SP

Sounds plausible but it's important to make sure that you understand that the speed value is often much higher than +3 of 2.5% stat.

But it seems to be true, if you agreed that the T4 dungeon is weakened.

But I see that Windstrider Boots are Major for 10-20k cost (2-4 of 3.33% stats), so I propose to move that artifacti to Relic and cost like +6 of knowledge (at 3.33% stats but in new 2.5% stats it will get +8?).

Why Relic? Because it has strong and often very important value, while simple +4 of 3.33% stats artifact can't have.

The same thing about Necklace of the Bloody Claw, espesially if you want to enforce T1, so I know if T1 is enough strong (~10% of army power or greater like in HRTA), its value is +4-5 of 5% stat or greater.

So what about artifacts values when you get 2.5% stats? How many gold will cost +1 stat?

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dredknight
dredknight


Promising
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted October 08, 2017 09:26 PM

Nargott said:

In EvP units with 8 speed are much more dangerous than 7 because you can't hide your large units avoiding attack.



Actually reducing the speed fixes an issue where some classes cannot pick fights with 8 SP stacks of creatures because they will cause huge casualties. So you can consider this as another issue gone with those changes.
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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted October 08, 2017 09:36 PM
Edited by Nargott at 21:45, 08 Oct 2017.

Why Ogre Club is Relic I don't understand.
Having only +6 of 3.33% attack (or +4 of 5% attack).
And -5% ini which costs half of that and is sinergy with attack (both improve damage per round).
So this is a weak artifact ~+3 to 3.33% attack.

But Ogre Shield is Major, while it is stronger than Club because initiative is not synergy with defence, this is more important artifact for Magic heroes than Ogre Club for Might heroes.
I think it costs ~+4.5 to 3.33% defense.

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thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted October 08, 2017 09:39 PM

I would like to see no creature with 8 speed. Any left now? If so, please drop them to 7 and boost them otherwise (ini or damage or special ability boost)...

I think reaching the other side in act #1 is too powerful of an "ability". It's way more powerful than ranged attacks. I've always hated it. I know there are perks/artifacts that can increase speed anyway but see it would make those perks/artifacts even more valuable, and you wouldn't have this ability in stock configuration.


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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted October 08, 2017 09:43 PM
Edited by Nargott at 22:29, 08 Oct 2017.

thGryphn said:
I would like to see no creature with 8 speed. Any left now? If so, please drop them to 7 and boost them otherwise (ini or damage or special ability boost)...

I think reaching the other side in act #1 is too powerful of an "ability". It's way more powerful than ranged attacks. I've always hated it. I know there are perks/artifacts that can increase speed anyway but see it would make those perks/artifacts even more valuable, and you wouldn't have this ability in stock configuration.



Agree with it, if all creatures will have speed lesser than 8 it will be better than in TotE (especially if an artifact of +1 speed is relic). But against any additional boost (ini, damage, special ability etc.) because in this game the most powerful units are speed units, so it's better nerfing them without any compensation.

If you want to rush, you must get tactics at least. No free rushing ability.

But if you move all 8-9 speed to 7, there will be many units with speed of 7, so some of them move to speed 6?

EDIT:
In TotE there are at upgraded faction units:
speed 3 = 3 units
4 = 28
5 = 25
6 = 15
7 = 20
8 = 17
9 = 4

So if you move all 8-9 to 7, you get 41 units with that speed, but if you additionaly move ~13 units from 7 to 6 speed, it will be more equal.

EDIT2:
In WGE I have these speeds:
3 = 18%
4 = 30%
5 = 23%
6 = 16%
7 = 9%
8 = 3%
9 = 1%

So there are very few units with speed of 8+, and all of them are not best at melee power.
If you want to rush you must to have not only tactics but +1 speed additional, and even in this case your rush will be as strong as in TotE but without any rushing perks (tactics and +1).
If you have no rushing perks, then fly to the opponent at the first move is sometimes possible for single units but always is serious mistake (stupid move).

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted October 08, 2017 10:05 PM

Good points about the artifacts, I don't know how the ogre artifacts ended up at different levels.

But in my 2.5% version I had already boosted all dwarf relics to 6 stats, forgotten to 8 stats and ogres to 7.

Quote:
I would like to see no creature with 8 speed. Any left now? If so, please drop them to 7 and boost them otherwise (ini or damage or special ability boost)...


I would easier take this decision if I were to design a game from scratch instead of working on a 10 year old one, build on a 30 year HOMM series tradition of dragons, angels and whatever moving to the other side in one turn.


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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted October 08, 2017 10:30 PM
Edited by Nargott at 22:54, 08 Oct 2017.

magnomagus said:
I would easier take this decision if I were to design a game from scratch instead of working on a 10 year old one, build on a 30 year HOMM series tradition of dragons, angels and whatever moving to the other side in one turn.

Yes but there were always flyers only.
Giving this opportunity to non-flyers in HoMM5 is such an outrage over the heroic series (and class of flyers), which is difficult to understand.

So imagine that some of your melee units can shoot and shoot stronger than natural shooters. The same look runners which are faster than flyers. But this is my personal opinion, I don't understand why a lot of players do not pay attention to it. Simply they don't understand who is flyers, several years ago I didn't understand it too, thinking about flying is only minor ability to ignore obstacles. But their essence was quite different if you look to the history of HoMM.

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StrikerX
StrikerX


Known Hero
The Bringer of Rain
posted October 08, 2017 10:39 PM

Isn't Basic Shout skill still available for chieftains in stronghold faction?  I still see it on skill wheel and it use to be one of the first skills to pop for them cause it's almost mandatory like sorcery is for casting classes but I'm lvl 23 chieftain and been holding out on filling 8th slot but never have got it as an option.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted October 08, 2017 10:51 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 23:04, 08 Oct 2017.

@StrikerX: it isn't mandatory in any way in H55 balance, but because chieftains have overload of skills, shouting & learning are only available on heroes that have designation "Khan" or "Veteran"  (maybe they are also in witch huts, don't remember)

---

Ok, using variation as additional justification for every change, I have extended my scheme, chopping off speed in various places (this is more like first draft, so take with grain of salt):

Archangels -1SP +10HP,+1A,+1D
Paladins -1SP +10HP
Seraphs & Champions unchanged
Experiment: Haven T5 +50% damage but with range penalty ability from dungeon T1

Sylvan wind dancer -1SP, agility +2D per tile
Ancient Treant 8 ini, 5SP, 170HP, other treant no changes
Sylvan T7 -1SP +10HP
Pristine unicorn -1SP (those needed to be nerfed anyway, because of bond of light)

Dungeon T4 -1SP, +3 primary stats, no changes to hydras
shadow dragon also -1SP
Red dragon -1SP (could use a nerf anyway), remove minimalist Defense nerf, no changes to Black
Blood furies (fastest) change stats to current sisters = 8 speed, 14 ini, 21HP
Blood sisters -1SP, 25HP

Inferno, no changes to T3 and Nightmare, only Hell Stallion -1SP +2 min damage
Leaping range 3-7

Djinn Vizier -1SP, +2A,+2D
Obsidian Gargoyle -1Sp,+1Ini
other gargoyles & djinns stay the same
Ksatra Dmg 24-32, -1SP (those needed to be nerfed anyway)
Vampire Princes -1SP (could use a nerf anyway)

Whitebear riders -1SP +5HP
Flamelord -1SP, +5HP, +1A, no changes to thunder thane

executioner -1SP,+1A,+3D,+2HP
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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted October 08, 2017 11:04 PM
Edited by Nargott at 23:13, 08 Oct 2017.

Speed is such a topic to which I can not remain indifferent, this is the key factor in the combat, however, you must understand how far you are ready to go in this direction, make a global improvement or just point to fix several units.

If global and far, then left ultra speed 8+ (or even 7+) only for flyers is the best right thing which can be done, IMHO.

EDIT:
The second right thing (if the first will done) is extended melee speeds from 4-6 to 3-6, so improving difference between slow heavy infantry and cavalry (ratio 3:6 as original 4:8).
But this is only my opinion about speed, the taste preferences of other players may differ.

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thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted October 08, 2017 11:17 PM

magnomagus said:

Quote:
I would like to see no creature with 8 speed. Any left now? If so, please drop them to 7 and boost them otherwise (ini or damage or special ability boost)...


I would easier take this decision if I were to design a game from scratch instead of working on a 10 year old one, build on a 30 year HOMM series tradition of dragons, angels and whatever moving to the other side in one turn.




Don't let tradition hold you down

No, seriously, I really think you should feel free/brave about the extent of changes for the sake of improving the game.


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StrikerX
StrikerX


Known Hero
The Bringer of Rain
posted October 08, 2017 11:35 PM

magnomagus said:
@StrikerX: it isn't mandatory in any way in H55 balance, but because chieftains have overload of skills, shouting & learning are only available on heroes that have designation "Khan" or "Veteran"  (maybe they are also in witch huts, don't remember)


That seems extreme.  Limits there casting speed of shouts by 36% which is what the stronghold faction was built around along with Blood Rage skill.  May not be mandatory but it seems pretty important compared to other skills like sorcery is to magic classes.

Just my opinion but I would lose logistics, war machines or a shatter over that skill or give basic shout automatically to all chieftains at lvl 1 then we could pick between other skills as needed.

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