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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Modders Workshop > Thread: [MOD] Might & Magic: Heroes 5.5
Thread: [MOD] Might & Magic: Heroes 5.5 This Popular Thread is 388 pages long: 1 50 100 150 200 250 300 350 ... 381 382 383 384 385 ... 388 · «PREV / NEXT»
magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted August 30, 2019 10:29 PM

weird combat arena design

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dredknight
dredknight


Responsible
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted August 30, 2019 11:38 PM

haha, too many modded stuff I guess.

Regarding the Salvo, here are things that can be changed so far:
- Unit type bonded to hero
- affect mass target spells by only shooting the ENEMY creature under the pointer. If pointer is on empty square the salvo wont get a chance to trigger. I also tested this with global mass spells - armageddon, CoTN, WoL. They do not trigger it so it kind of keep it balanced while increase the range of spells.
- affect all single target spells cast on the enemy.
- chance to happen (currently set to 100% )
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted August 31, 2019 01:39 AM

can chance to happen be set to 20%+1%

and affect all single target spells without using hex space?
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thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted August 31, 2019 08:24 AM

Can it be changed to trigger before the spell, as opposed to after? That might solve the Blind spell issue, if all single target spells are to be effective.

Also, how does it currently work with Cold Ring spell?


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dredknight
dredknight


Responsible
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted August 31, 2019 11:19 AM
Edited by dredknight at 11:55, 31 Aug 2019.

@Magno, yes to both questions, actually it is already done. Any of those changes free hex space .

@Gryphn, I will check.

Btw, Marko is ready with offensive/defensive formations fix. Tested and it works for all units and heroes. I will put it in the next EXE batch for the QA team.

more things found:
- Archangel "Resurrect allies" ability heal formula which is 100*Archangel_stack_size.
- Summon balor formula (summon_stack = dead_stack_hp/1_pit_lord_hp) and cap (summon_stack = 2*caster_stack_size)
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted August 31, 2019 01:01 PM

I don't think there is anything wrong with angels and balors
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dredknight
dredknight


Responsible
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted August 31, 2019 05:39 PM
Edited by dredknight at 18:02, 31 Aug 2019.

Alright just had a game with Eruina (Coven Mistress spec) to feel how the hero plays. I did use Magno settings for Matron Salvo (chance + all single target spells).

The hero is may be nearly the most useless hero in game. I put her on the same level as the spellwringler. Here are some details.

Map: 4P-Collar-L
Monsters: very strong
XP: 3


Regarding the template:
by end of week 2 I have citadel + T6.
I also had about 3-4 battles as all armies surrounding the castle where impossible to get:
- throng of centaurs + lots of warmongers;
- lots of Foul Wyverns
- Sylvan T3, T4 and Unicorns

One of the players could not get hero from prison (known issue) i report this because it used to happen only in underground. I suspect the small area was at fault.


Now to the hero:
Assassins starts and has the chance to get low amount of knowledge.
I've never had issue with other Assassins as their spec compensates:
- Vayshan - very strong T1
- Thralasai - teleporting hydras is a real deal on week 2
- Yrbeth - if handled correctly she can get good amount of Manticores after week 3.
- Welygg - never played him.
- Lethos - Havent played him for a while but kind of useless as poison dmg is very low and just does not make a difference at early/mid stage.

So on week 3 I tried to breach out of the zone because the current one did have anything to offer - i got 5 t6s, about 30 t1s and some t2 blockers against Dungeon 12 T4, 40 T2, 40 T1_invis

I got 1 knowledge and 1 from the castle dolmen building.

Just for your reference:
- player 1 Necro: Kaspar (DK with Tent spec) was level 13 by week 3. He was capitalizing on Archers + Tent + combat with stun.
- player 2 Inferno: Sheltem was level 5 (not so experienced player)
- Player 3 Dungeon: lvl 2 Overlord (lizard spec)
- Player 4 Dungeon: I was lvl 2 (probably 3-4 forgot to pick exp chests so that is on me).

To sum it up:
- Havent played for a while but map was kind of too strong for "Very strong" monsters.
- Matron Salvo is useless early and mid game. May be good in very late game but even then one additional archer shot per hero cast (and not every time is proper cast) is not that big deal. Have in mind that even if Matron salvo happens on each cast (which it does not) the damage it deals is insignificant because of small amount of units and broken arrow most of the time.
- Starting school - frankly I noticed that it is not a big difference if the starting school was dark or not destruction. Low mana and no salvos are not big deal. I would admit that Destruction as starting skill will be small improvement but mana is the real restricting factor.

My suggestions:
1. Make the Salvo work on all Dungeon shooters, this will help player capitalize on it. It will give some breath of difference because most players choose T1 invisible upgrade anyway.
2. Increase the chance to 40% + 2% per hero lvl, remember that Assassins have big issues with mana. If hero wants to develop the spec he must get knowledge artifacts and skills like Enlightenment, luck + Erratic mana, Sorcery + arcane training.

The only way to make the spec viable is to show that it can be strong. Have also in mind the following:
- Assassin class have low defense or defensive capabilities - lack of Combat and low chance of War Machines make the class game vulnerable to casualties.
- Dungeon units have low amount of shots 5 and Salvos take a shot, this is another disadvantage early and mid game.
- Salvo shots are on broken arrow most of the time.
- Working towards high mana and Sorcery prevents the class to invest in other good skills so technically to become good in salvo you have to sacrifice other strength.
- T6 needs high amount to do any significant damage, they are also taking constant damage because Assassins does not have a lot of tools to keep them alive.

At the end I want to say that, at the end of reading this, even if I am wrong and the hero turns out to be very strong, we can nerf it down. We will never have the chance to know it unless it is tested. And now one will test unless they say any potential meaning in the hero playthrough.


P.S.

Regarding Lethos, a guy from Discord told me he made a lvl 30 Lethos and spec was garbage.

I dont think spec is bad but Decay. I never use it, damage is very very low. it is better to shoot with hero attack then use the spell.
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caracal
caracal


Adventuring Hero
posted August 31, 2019 07:04 PM

The way I was thinking Eruina could get into something considered too strong was if you invest in Cultmaster perk which on it's own with low chance for knowledge will be hard to take advantage of. With a lot of luck you can also roll Ranleth as secondary hero who increases witches' growth in town. After many weeks have passed you could accumulate something that would be worthwhile power stack. I assume you can achieve that with relative ease against AI on huge maps which you play for 10- 20 weeks other than that it is indeed unreliable strategy. Then again making dark spells having a chance to trigger salvo...remember that the witches can also cast single target spells will they be shooting AND casting the same turn then?

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dredknight
dredknight


Responsible
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted August 31, 2019 07:56 PM

Cultmaster perk is very late game stuff, also remember Assassins suffer casualties throughout the game until they get Vampirism. Which again works against Matron Salvo as it is allies cast.

All other stuff you say about recruitment (Ranleth) are not relevant because they require gold and strong economy, which is always scarce even in month 5!

Matron Salvo works only when hero is the caster.

At the end, compare this spec to other specs:
- unit specs with 1/1 bonus - at level 30 you will have a unit with 15 A/D higher, that is 37.5% more dmg and 37.5% more unit HP.

- 1 attack per 7 hero lvl spec at lvl 30 - 4 attack = 10%_dmg*7_stacks or about 70% dmg increase for 1 unit. Which BTW stacks with morale and luck. I am not sure if Matron Salvo can be lucked, morale is not relevant. However it stacks with Sorcery but you need mana for that which Assassins heavily lack.

What is Matron salvo at level 30? Probably 3-4 bonus shots, 3/4 of them on half arrow.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted August 31, 2019 08:18 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 20:35, 31 Aug 2019.

If it has a 50% to trigger, then they should 1.5 times per turn on avg, so 50% more dmg (66% with sorcery). range penalty is irrelevant, that is payback for the luxury of doing dmg without retaliation or giving up position.

Some heroes are more for small-midsize maps, others mid-large, she is fine for mid-large.

Decay is not weak if you ignore your feelings and look at the numbers for example at 25 spellpower = 400DMG x 4.5 turns vs Lightning 600DMG x 1 turn.

EDIT: nonetheless I'm open to changing matron salvo to 30+1 to make it more useful on moderately small maps, but it has to be 1% because of level cap removal.
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strigvir
strigvir


Adventuring Hero
posted August 31, 2019 08:41 PM

The comparison at expert level doesn't do Decay any favour, since bolt can be enhanced with initiative reduction and shot at almost everything.

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dredknight
dredknight


Responsible
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted August 31, 2019 09:44 PM
Edited by dredknight at 22:11, 31 Aug 2019.

MATRON SALVO

@Magno agreed on that proposal. The map was a bit too harsh as well so I kind of think it is a factor towards hero negative performance.

DECAY

@Magno, @Stigvir, true Decay has high overall dmg on high lvl and it sound reasonable but early to midgame in practice it does not work, because it does not deal the damage fast enough to make a difference, and lategame creatures are way too high in numbers to have significant impact. Not to mention that there are other dark spells that prevail at that stage.

Compared to other spells - fireball, Ice Bolt, Lighting - they are all used because of some bonus that make them unique in their field (sometimes it comes with the perk) - fireball - mass, reduce defense, ignite (becomes even better version of decay); Ice bolt - stun and Lighting stun and different damage type (depends on the tree you take).


So what is unique about Decay that will make it a keeper for someone? It is the duration! It should feel like a slow poison, unfortunately it does not. Basically pretty much after the second or third cast you have to do it again. IMO it should shine with what it is made to be unique and that is DPS through big portion of the whole battle.

So my proposal is to leave the spell damage as is, but increase duration dramatically, make it start at 4 + 0.1 per SP. Early to mid game decay performance will improve significantly, not that much because of the extra dmg but because hero can stack it with other damage effects like basic attack or other damaging spell. In late game a few extra turns does not seem like a big deal compared to the size of the army stacks or compared to the massacre destruction hero can do.

What will this do to the spell?
1. It will improve heroes that begin and revolve around dark arts early game. Casting Decay will feel like investment for damage. Cast it on Round 1, and then add to it hero basic attack afterwards, or just turtle and defend until you wait for the damage to kick in.
2. Dark casters class heroes are usually thin on mana so besides the damage mechanics you have a spell to grind with that does not deplete mana pool each battle.
3. Makes Lethos spec meaningful through all stages of the game.


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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted August 31, 2019 10:47 PM

I'm sorry but this makes little sense to me, 5 turns is really an eternity in H5 battles.
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dredknight
dredknight


Responsible
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted August 31, 2019 10:50 PM

Ok I got a bit away with that value.
What I want to achieve is bring meaning to the spell in the early phase of the game.

How about 2.5 + 0.1 or 3 + 0.75 per sp?
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted August 31, 2019 10:53 PM

but it already has meaning, early game the dmg is relatively higher and with 2 turns it already does more dmg than lightning bolt.
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dredknight
dredknight


Responsible
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted August 31, 2019 10:56 PM

Ok I am sorry. Wrong calculation on my side.
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dredknight
dredknight


Responsible
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted August 31, 2019 11:27 PM
Edited by dredknight at 23:55, 31 Aug 2019.

I got some feedback from Discord.

Generally Decay is considered a good spell, but people dislike Lethos as poison chance is very low. The overall opinion he will have better time if chance is  20% + 1% per lvl

P.S.

I am testing the 10 + 1% right now to experience how it behaves.
We did a new map on Epic template + very strong.
I would say that VERY strong on EPIC template has nothing to do with Very strong on Collar template.

The only difference in the map building was that Collar was with eXPERIENCE SETTING 3 while EPIC was with EXP setting 4.

Here is the link for the COLLAR map. If you want to take a look.
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 01, 2019 12:16 AM

Quote:
I would say that VERY strong on EPIC template has nothing to do with Very strong on Collar template.


What do you mean?
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dredknight
dredknight


Responsible
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted September 01, 2019 12:24 AM

Collar map set to "very strong" monster setting extreme in difficulty to fight against. In the starting zone siginificant amount of creatures are T6 stacks, the rest is combination of T2 T3 and T4 which includes shooters. On the map I shared above 3 out of 4 players did not have more than 3 fights the first 3 weeks. The rest of the time we could not do anything.
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 01, 2019 01:07 AM

Allright I will make some adjustments
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