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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Modders Workshop > Thread: [MOD] Might & Magic: Heroes 5.5
Thread: [MOD] Might & Magic: Heroes 5.5 This Popular Thread is 412 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 80 160 240 320 400 ... 408 409 410 411 412 · «PREV / NEXT»
Titanus
Titanus

Tavern Dweller
posted May 26, 2020 11:17 PM

dredknight said:
Mass Dispel was left with 2x because it would just way too costly for what it does. Also it will be not possible for Might classes to use it.

Then, maybe the Cleansing spell cost should be lower than 20, which I consider quite high, to begin with. 15 would be more justifiable, in my opinion and 60 mana for Mass Cleansing doesn't seem that far-fetched. After all, the hero is not alone in the dispelling part of a battle; he is also supported by casters with the Cleansing spell in their spellbook, in most of the cases.
But what do you mean by saying "for what it does"? RC13 uses a formula that guarantees a pretty good chance of success at dispelling (either by heroes or casters), even against level 40+ heroes. Cleansing has become a pretty reliable spell, even if a Might-class hero decided to use it. Not so at the beginning of a game, due to Knowledge restrictions mostly, but certainly mid-game and endgame.
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Gidoza
Gidoza


Famous Hero
posted May 27, 2020 05:55 PM

Allright I guess I'll have to go on a hunt for the data.


Completely different question now:

How does one debug a game crash?

I have a save game where I enter into a fight with a Hero (Orlando) - at the point where he gets his turn, the game always immediately crashes in H55.  I loaded regular H5 to see what his move would be, only to find out that it's...a Magic Arrow.  Nothing special.

Is there any way to debug this and figure out what's going on?  I guess I'll just start a new game though because this one's doomed.

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dredknight
dredknight


Responsible
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted May 27, 2020 10:43 PM

Before trying any debugs - fully disable Windows 10 D.E.P, Windows Defender and your Antivirus. Just for the tests of course.
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Gidoza
Gidoza


Famous Hero
posted May 28, 2020 01:41 PM

dredknight said:
Before trying any debugs - fully disable Windows 10 D.E.P, Windows Defender and your Antivirus. Just for the tests of course.


Perhaps I should clarify my question - *how* does one debug it?

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dredknight
dredknight


Responsible
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted May 28, 2020 05:36 PM

The only way through debugger and assembly knowledge.
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Gidoza
Gidoza


Famous Hero
posted May 30, 2020 04:35 AM
Edited by Gidoza at 19:27, 30 May 2020.

dredknight said:
The only way through debugger and assembly knowledge.


Thank you - I haven't encountered the problem again, so not sure what that was about (I encountered Orlando later and nothing happened).  Oh, well.


Anyways...regarding Banks, I haven't been able to get anywhere on that front.  If you're not 100% sure, perhaps MagnoMagus could quickly help me on that one.  I *suspect* some of the code it set up in such a way that the banks reset not on a 2-month basis but for pre-meditated days, but I'm not certain of it because there's too many variables and it makes my head spin.  :/


EDIT:  Have a hunch I may have found something of value.  Testing...

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted June 03, 2020 09:32 PM

I have released the beta for RC14

Download RC14 Beta

This is a copy of a moddb article awaiting authorization with the changelist:

MMH5.5: A New Beginning (RC14 Beta)

Today will be the release of an open and somewhat experimental beta for the next version of Heroes 5.5. The previous release RC13a was probably a good product in its own right, that for many players (especially casual) wouldn't need much improvement since it is very complete in terms of features and low on bugs.

Nonetheless, some people always want more and especially the multiplayer community has been very vocal in demanding every class and even every hero to be viable in competitive multiplayer and preferably also improve the game further on a tactical level regardless of the fact that this will require the game to deviate further from the game it is build on.

While not everything in this beta may make it to the final version there is little doubt the next version will be so significantly different it is more like a Heroes 5.5 '2.0' because the class system got a major overhaul and all skillwheels have been modified

WARNING: The old campaigns from Vanilla/HOF are not included in the beta, they will come back in the full release.If you are currently in the middle of a campaign playthrough don't update, also finish any map you want to finish before updating (since this version will be too different).

The rest of this article will be a summary of the changes for each part of the game.

SPELLS

Spellschools have gone through another shake-up mainly to make them more versatile and not focused on a single tactic like debuffing, buffing, summoning, so they are more H3-like basically. Dark magic is balanced to be more effective against necro, Summoning isn't an all-in-one solution for necro dominance.

-Eldritsch arrow moved to light magic level 2, dmg isn't elemental
-Raise dead moved to Dark level 3
-Phantom Forces moved to Dark level 4
-deep freeze, fireball, frost ring, lightning bolt have all dropped one level down
-Implosion is destructive level 5 and slightly more powerful. Deep freeze is cheaper and weaker
-Blind moved to light magic level 4
-Earthquake - summoning level 2
-Magical Immunity moved to summoning level 3
-Suffering, Righteous might, Endurance and Vulnerability are lowered one level
-Ors are immune to curse of netherworld
-conjured phoenix has rebirth ability and -50%HP
-All changed spells have new icons and sometimes names.

SKILLS

A fundamental change is that Scholar and Wisdom are heavily modified to allow heroes to learn high level spells from 'unusual' schools (not in the towns mage guild). this will greatly improve the tactical variation in the game

-Luck, Avenger and Sorcery have reworked branches.
-Consume corpse is renamed 'drain soul' and has different icons (because eating corpses is inappropriate for humans/elves etc)
-Master of Life is renamed master of ruin and boosts firewall instead of raise dead
-pyromancy no longer gives firewall, but fire trap instead.
-Plague tent does 50% more dmg
-sp bonus was removed from cold death
-pillager does not give +200 with snatch, stays at +100 movement.
-Counterspell was moved to enlightenment to offer new strategy for might heroes.
-Dead man luck is renamed fateweaver and also gives sorrow spell.
-dragon blood crystal summoning is slightly better.
-barbarian skills, tribal teachings, tribal rituals and stamina are all buffed significantly.

CLASSES

Generally, almost every class has underwent some changes in skillwheel to equalize early game and there is much more room for each faction to experiment with 'unusual magic'

-Haven: now has 2 knight classes, a dark and a light one, instead of paladin which was basically a weak knight offering little difference from the real knight
-Inferno: gatekeepers have rare option to learn light magic
-Sylvan: new Avenger class focused on imbuing arrows with dark or destructive magic, ranger is more conventional 'forest knight'
-Necropolis: Since Raise dead was moved to dark magic, a new heavy magic class is introduced: Nethermage, the necromancer is now the balanced class and has pretty much same development as TOE version.
-Dungeon: weak Assassin class replaced with Trickster class starting with luck, modified minotaur guards to work with soldiers luck, has rare option to go for light magic
-Fortress: Runemage is now offensive balanced class with better access to summoning and dark, Flamekeeper is heavy magic class for light+destructive combo
-Academy: Seer replaced with enchanter starting with light magic, elementalist is nerfed and renamed conjurer and is balanced class, Wizard is heavy magic class
-Stronghold: balance improvements to skillwheels (as with all factions)

HEROES

The changelist here is massive and I'm not writing it down since it can be observed mostly from browsing through the heroes in custom game menu. A lot of heroes will have different specs or haved moved between classes as a consequence of class and skillwheel changes In the process of moving heroes to appropriate places a lot of bios have been updated to H7 lore status and mistakes in lore have been corrected, most TOE heroes have their 'lore specialization' back. (such as deleb having iron maiden again). The starting skills of the hero will be mentioned in the spec description.

CREATURES

All creatures have around 20-25% more HP to achieve the following goals:

-Improve unit movement tactics
-Weaken exploitative 1-unit blocker tactics, boost stronghold that lacks the ability for such tactics
-Lower importance of first turn and effect of RNG on battle outcome.
-Higher danger level of melee neutrals.
-Lower danger level of ranged and destructive neutrals.
-Weaken destructive heroes a bit (could have been done by other means but it was already a welcome side effect).

other creature stuff

-regeneration abilites and spell have been adjusted to new HP values.
-magnetic golems healing is reduced to 25% spell DMG.
-vampire healing reduced to 40% (adjustment for higher HP)
-minotaur guards have reworked stats and assault ability instead of double attack (to work with soldiers luck).
-stronghold t5 rage level 3 doesn't give double attack but +8 Attack instead, since this was very unfair to executioners.
-executioners have double attack instead of cleave.

ARTIFACTS

-All +% DMG boosting artifacts reduced to 30% from 50%
-All -% DMG protection artifacts reduced to 40% from 50% OR 20% from 25%
-All scrolls also give +2 Knowledge
-All wands also give +2 Spellpower
-ring of vitality is minor
-ring of banishment is relic
-dwarven smithy hammer is minor
-sword of might improved to +3 attack
-beginners magic wand improved to +3 Spellpower

ADVANCED RMG

-2 new template series (Ladder & Gladiator) for multiplayer games with starting towns far apart
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted June 03, 2020 10:34 PM

Lots of interesting goodies.

How did you manage to give conjured phoenix rebirth? I thought that rebirth doesn't work for summoned units as they get desummoned on death.
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted June 03, 2020 11:26 PM

mm, i didn't expect that to be an issue so didn't test it, you did?
than this may be the first beta issue.
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Gandalf196
Gandalf196


Known Hero
posted June 04, 2020 01:25 AM

magnomagus said:
I have released the beta for RC14

Download RC14 Beta

T
-Academy: Seer replaced with enchanter starting with light magic, elementalist is nerfed and renamed conjurer and is balanced class, Wizard is heavy magic class




At long last, justice has been served.
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Gandalf196
Gandalf196


Known Hero
posted June 04, 2020 03:32 AM

I very much aprove the initiative, but I think that a heavy magic user should not have artificer as a starting skill (or as a possible skill at all). Wizards' primary skills are perfect, but their secondary skills need some adjustment.
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etore
etore


Adventuring Hero
posted June 04, 2020 03:35 AM
Edited by etore at 03:59, 04 Jun 2020.

Installed beta over 5.63a.
Playing Freyda with Endurance and Righteous Might in her spell book. After a fight she leveled up twice. First I choose Master of Blessings and learned Bless, second Master of Wrath and are granted mass Righteous Might but not learned Haste.
I don't know if it's an old behavior or came with the update.

Edit 2: similar behavior with Minasli. Master of Wrath granted mass Righteous Might but not Haste.

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thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted June 04, 2020 03:42 AM

Gandalf196 said:
I very much aprove the initiative, but I think that a heavy magic user should not have artificer as a starting skill (or as a possible skill at all). Wizards' primary skills are perfect, but their secondary skills need some adjustment.


Well, in fact, it is intentional. Wizards, if they started with a magic school, would have been OP. Starting with Artificer balances them out, giving them a bit harder time early game. Not that they have a hard time now, it's just right. They are very powerful late game, so somethings gotta give to balance their strength compared to other classes.



etore said:
Installed beta over 5.63a.
Playing Freyda with Endurance and Righteous Might in her spell book. After a fight she leveled up twice. First I choose Master of Blessings and learned Bless, second Master of Wrath and are granted mass Righteous Might but not learned Haste.
I don't know if it's an old behavior or came with the update.


Well, regardless of this, you should really have uninstalled the previous version before installing the RC14 Beta. Without doing that, it becomes nigh impossible to troubleshoot any issues including this one...

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etore
etore


Adventuring Hero
posted June 04, 2020 04:09 AM
Edited by etore at 04:15, 04 Jun 2020.

thGryphn said:
Well, regardless of this, you should really have uninstalled the previous version before installing the RC14 Beta. Without doing that, it becomes nigh impossible to troubleshoot any issues including this one...



I uninstalled 5.63a, installed the RC14 beta, started a new game and got same behavior with Minasli. Master of Wrath granted mass Righteous Might but she not learned Haste.

After that I learned Haste from a shrine and then received mass Haste. So just the learning part are not working.

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Gandalf196
Gandalf196


Known Hero
posted June 04, 2020 05:24 AM

thGryphn said:
Gandalf196 said:
I very much aprove the initiative, but I think that a heavy magic user should not have artificer as a starting skill (or as a possible skill at all). Wizards' primary skills are perfect, but their secondary skills need some adjustment.


Well, in fact, it is intentional. Wizards, if they started with a magic school, would have been OP. Starting with Artificer balances them out, giving them a bit harder time early game. Not that they have a hard time now, it's just right. They are very powerful late game, so somethings gotta give to balance their strength compared to other classes.




Fair enough. However, maybe artificer perks could be enhanced (I don't think for a second that re-adding mark of the wizard would be balanced, but some other magic-related perk would be nice). Also, their chances of getting both sorcery and occultism are low for a heavy magic user, imho. That said, I'm glad with the direction the mod has taken and look forward to see what the future holds.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted June 04, 2020 08:25 AM

Btw

Quote:
All creatures have around 20-25% more HP to achieve the following goals:

-Weaken destructive heroes a bit (could have been done by other means but it was already a welcome side effect).

From personal experience even 5-10% is enough to break destructive balance so if you can add 20-25% more hp and destructive is still balanced.. Exactly how broken was it
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Bulya
Bulya


Adventuring Hero
posted June 04, 2020 10:44 AM

Elvin said:
Quote:
All creatures have around 20-25% more HP to achieve the following goals:

-Weaken destructive heroes a bit (could have been done by other means but it was already a welcome side effect).

From personal experience even 5-10% is enough to break destructive balance so if you can add 20-25% more hp and destructive is still balanced.. Exactly how broken was it


From my personal experience 5-10% isn't enough at all. We were playing games where end game fights were taken on week 3 as well as week 6, and destruct was the dominant magic school that won those fights. Be it magic vs magic, or might vs magic.

H5.5 is after all very different to the vanilla, so things are quite different.
I like the HP boost part of it, and already played a bit. Melee fighting becomes more important this way. And destruct perhaps nerfed. With the other nerfs to destruct (like enhancers boosting it less, and others) I hope destruct won't be as dominant as it was in the previous versions of H5.5.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted June 04, 2020 11:29 AM

etore is right, master of wrath currently gives RM, I inserted a wrong number.

destructive magic with or without occultism (formerly irresistable) makes a big difference, and in h55 all magic classes can have occultism. i think in TOE a warlock can survive +5-10%, but other classes may be in trouble.
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Gidoza
Gidoza


Famous Hero
posted June 04, 2020 08:40 PM

Bulya said:
Elvin said:
Quote:
All creatures have around 20-25% more HP to achieve the following goals:

-Weaken destructive heroes a bit (could have been done by other means but it was already a welcome side effect).

From personal experience even 5-10% is enough to break destructive balance so if you can add 20-25% more hp and destructive is still balanced.. Exactly how broken was it


From my personal experience 5-10% isn't enough at all. We were playing games where end game fights were taken on week 3 as well as week 6, and destruct was the dominant magic school that won those fights. Be it magic vs magic, or might vs magic.

H5.5 is after all very different to the vanilla, so things are quite different.
I like the HP boost part of it, and already played a bit. Melee fighting becomes more important this way. And destruct perhaps nerfed. With the other nerfs to destruct (like enhancers boosting it less, and others) I hope destruct won't be as dominant as it was in the previous versions of H5.5.


I'm working on my own mod for fun right now that has taken a different path: it originally wasn't supposed to be anything but a minor mod that classified spells into magic schools as in Heroes 3.  But of course if you split up all the Destructive Magic spells into four schools, you have to re-arrange the skills for each magic type, then you need to re-balance heroes, then units...the chain effect basically caused me to start tweaking everything.

Anyways, part of the reason why I was heading in the H3 direction of magic schools is first - because Destructive Magic is boring: a damage spell is a damage spell is a damage spell.  Sure, they're "slightly" different, but optimizing damage amongst choices of different damage types by hitting for a bit of damage more, or hitting 3 units instead of 2, or 1 unit or whatever, actually is just math on a calculator - not what I'd call strategy.  The other reason was precisely that I walked into using Destructive far too often, because logistically it makes the most sense in the most situations.  Think about it...

1.  You're generally the loser in a battle.  What do you cast?  You don't use Slow, because there's no point in debuffing an enemy who's about to kill your last unit - you use a damage spell to hit as hard as you can.

2.  You're generally the winner in a battle.  What do you cast?  You don't use Slow, because there's no point in debuffing an enemy who's about to die.  If you can just shoot it dead, why debuff it?

3.  Spell power VS army size.  Basically, as your Spell Power increases, #2 starts applying more and more until debuff spells become essentially meaningless.  Army size relative to spell power basically slides you into using Destructive - again, because there's no point in debuffing things that can die instantly.

4.  The only time that non-Destructive spells are ever useful is when both armies are sizeable enough to withstand some hits and drag out the battle for some time.  Basically unless the battle is lasting at least 5 rounds I'm not even considering veering away from damage spells because there's no point in it (for the record, I consider Frenzy/Hypnotize to technically be damage spells in this regard).



In the end, what ended up happening was that after splitting up the spells in all the different schools, I knocked down all damage spells' potential by between a third and a half, while abilities like Mark of the Wizard or Empowered Spells are third-tier skills to achieve.  The point here being that because all schools will have damage spells so you will always have Destructive available now, the focus should instead be making use of the other, slower and longer-term spells first, and only resorting to direct damage if it makes sense in the situation (I also cut Hero direct hits by a third as well).  Since most situations *still* demand damage spells as the most sane course anyways, all this cutting is hardly a problem - BUT! - it's at least essentially balanced, because everyone has the damage spells available when it matters.

In the end, it's *far* more interesting.

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Gandalf196
Gandalf196


Known Hero
posted June 04, 2020 11:14 PM

While I find Gidoza's proposal very interesting, I also like the thematic schools and would rather leave them as they are, thematically speaking.
We could fix the balance issues by making the other schools rely less on numbers (and on flat numbers, in some cases) than destruction school. You are correct in saying that destruction is actually better than buffying and debuffying in most cases, but a spell such as teleport may be, undoubtdely better than a damaging one (it does not have an intrinsic scaling as the destructive ones, but it does scale when you factor the power of the stack being moved), the same reasoning can be applied to hypnotize-like spells, magic-immunity spells, etc. Imho, Light and Dark could be salvaged in this way. The case of summoning magic is trickier, for its indirect damaging spells (with the notable exception of firewall) are rather clumsy (and not very interesting to say the truth), but its summoning spells can be quite powerful (summon elementals can be much better than a direct damaging spell in many cases, ofc that depends on the numbers involved, being essentially a numbers game). That said, Summon Phoenix is the perfect spell, for it embodies the spirit of the school and makes for an interesting case in which you're not simply comparing numbers. I think Summoning would benefit a lot if its other spells were modelled after this spell.
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