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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: Are we being reasonable in our expectations of the developers?
Thread: Are we being reasonable in our expectations of the developers? This thread is 11 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 · «PREV / NEXT»
Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted August 13, 2015 04:15 PM

Dies_Irae said:
I wouldn't be surprised if 'they' are never going to do such an Open Dev ever again.


Well, the only way such a concept is going to work is if they take it seriously. They often took decisions that stood at odds with what the people were trying to tell, or blatantly ignored wishes and desires. It's not for nothing that I've seen people state that they thought the whole open dev thing was no more than a lightning conduit, aimed at drawing the negative criticism away and nothing more.

Even if I've never resorted to explicit derogatory comments, I do feel that the whole Shadow Council concept was nothing more than a fallacy in which they themselves never seriously believed in. Or maybe they did, but the execution of that concept was failing badly - badly enough that it eventually could not be taken seriously anymore.

"Do or do not, there is no try," as one of our favorite little green Muppets likes to say.

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Avirosb
Avirosb


Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
posted August 13, 2015 04:17 PM

keldaur said:
That depends on the resources they have had avaibles to manage.
Obviously not enough or they wouldn't have to recycle in the first place.

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sandro400
sandro400


Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
posted August 13, 2015 04:18 PM

Well said Maurice!
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Dies_Irae
Dies_Irae


Supreme Hero
Official spokesbirb
posted August 13, 2015 04:19 PM

Dies_Irae said:
verriker said:
Dies_Irae said:
I remember Marzin saying that this article is full of wrong statements and such, and not to be taken seriously.


can you cite the source of that, because it is full of Erwin quotes and clearly approved for publication, don't approve it if they disagree with it lol

don't really care about Marzhin's opinion anyway because Erwin is the one speaking to the journalist, not him lol


Either him or Nox, and in an article that appeared some time ago...that is going to require a lot of digging, because I do not know where exactly he wrote his opinion on it.


Okay, I found the post, but it is about another article.

Click

It's about the Heroes 6/Black Hole thing. So, the article as reposted by Sleeping_Sun was probably not discussed by the devs, and I mixed the two up here. Sorry for that.
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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
posted August 13, 2015 04:19 PM
Edited by verriker at 16:22, 13 Aug 2015.

Dies_Irae said:
Either him or Nox, and in an article that appeared some time ago...that is going to require a lot of digging, because I do not know where exactly he wrote his opinion on it.


see if you can find it please, or I take it 100% seriously until then lol

if even true it seems very convenient they would only start to backtrack and discredit something published after the fact only when everyone is up in arms about the antagonistic antifan crap contained within though, almost as if they were trying an "SOS casual readers" angle and didn't expect the fans to notice it lol


never mind Dies Irae mistook one source for another lol

sandro400 said:
Thank you for mentioning Erwan. I'm still clueless as to why he became the "core" of all this hatred. Yes, he's the most public face, but...


several people already explained this approach to you before, he is the authority of the brand and has control of whatever makes it into the game,

he makes the rules and sets the standards, it's like the Minister for Health may not always be the immediate cause close to the bone of scandals perpetrated by corrupt or incompetent doctors, but as the boss and overseer of those doctors he must still take much responsibility for their failings lol
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The_green_drag
The_green_drag


Supreme Hero
posted August 13, 2015 04:20 PM

My favorite part was the illusion of "we need to get these votes started early so our designers can start creating the units" lol

Riiiiight

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sandro400
sandro400


Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
posted August 13, 2015 04:23 PM
Edited by sandro400 at 16:28, 13 Aug 2015.

verriker said:
several people already explained this approach to you before, he is the authority of the brand and has control of whatever makes it into the game,
it's like the Minister for Health may not always be the immediate cause close to the bone of scandals perpetrated by corrupt or incompetent doctors, but as the boss and overseer of those doctors he must still take much responsibility for their failings lol


And several times already I told you (and others) why I disagree with this point of view, let's not bring this up once again. Neither of us is going to change opinions in the recent future.
Though I would like to hear if Erwan is to blame for the skillwheel, bugs and model recycle. Or if he's the one who decided the release date.
Why would I want to hear that? Because it's not his job to oversee the production (skills, technical perfomance etc).
Right now you're blaming Minister of Health for the problems of Minister of Defence, if you like such examples. ^^
P.S.: see ya later. ^^
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Dies_Irae
Dies_Irae


Supreme Hero
Official spokesbirb
posted August 13, 2015 04:25 PM
Edited by Dies_Irae at 16:32, 13 Aug 2015.

Verriker said:
never mind Dies Irae mistook one source for another lol


Just a minor, forgivable human error , things like that happen every now and then.

Maurice said:
Dies_Irae said:
I wouldn't be surprised if 'they' are never going to do such an Open Dev ever again.


Well, the only way such a concept is going to work is if they take it seriously. They often took decisions that stood at odds with what the people were trying to tell, or blatantly ignored wishes and desires. It's not for nothing that I've seen people state that they thought the whole open dev thing was no more than a lightning conduit, aimed at drawing the negative criticism away and nothing more.

Even if I've never resorted to explicit derogatory comments, I do feel that the whole Shadow Council concept was nothing more than a fallacy in which they themselves never seriously believed in. Or maybe they did, but the execution of that concept was failing badly - badly enough that it eventually could not be taken seriously anymore.

"Do or do not, there is no try," as one of our favorite little green Muppets likes to say.


Then I seriously hope that they've learned from this the next time they do something in Open Dev. Yes, the late skillwheel reveal and the statement on April 20th that "in this state of the game, there will be no changes in the system and the mechanics", even made someone like me a little...upset (click).

The things they granted versus the things they didn't...the balance is way off. I think they just didn't see all this coming, that they had planned a large portion of the game beforehand, and did not count on, well...whatever has come at them. They could only change so much and still hope for a September release.
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted August 13, 2015 04:28 PM

Well there was that developer interview which was published back around the time when the Paris event went off with some fan visitors (Stevie and Galaad participated iirc.). That interview was imo. quite enlightening in a very painful way. Erwin spoke about different design elements of the current game and how they corresponded with his "vision" of the game, and after I watched that interview, the amount of blame I feel we can pin on him grew significantly.
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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
posted August 13, 2015 04:39 PM

sandro400 said:
Though I would like to hear if Erwan is to blame for the skillwheel, bugs and model recycle. Or if he's the one who decided the release date.
Why would I want to hear that? Because it's not his job to oversee the production (skills, technical perfomance etc).
Right now you're blaming Minister of Health for the problems of Minister of Defence, if you like such examples. ^^
P.S.: see ya later. ^^


well I am not making a claim that Erwin is fully to blame for skillwheel, bugs, model recycle or release date, I blame him for the general bad foundation and mismanagement of the project and the lame sensibilities he imposed which contributed to these problems lol

for instance his unbendable rules of Ashan (seven schools, knights can't learn dark etc) have had a prescriptive impact on the skillwheel design, and if Heroes 7 is being given sparing resources due to Heroes 6 being a production disaster which killed its developer, yes he is to blame for that because he produced Heroes 6 lol

like you say he is also the most public figure, he will inevitably take the credit if the game is great and the blame if it is crap lol

Dies_Irae said:
Just a minor, forgivable human error , things like that happen every now and then.


of course no worries about that, I don't blame you at all with so much crazy crap happening over at SC lol
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keldaur
keldaur


Adventuring Hero
posted August 13, 2015 07:08 PM
Edited by keldaur at 19:09, 13 Aug 2015.

Avirosb said:
keldaur said:
That depends on the resources they have had avaibles to manage.
Obviously not enough or they wouldn't have to recycle in the first place.
Which is exactly my point. If you don't have the resources why would you dedicate more time to just dungeon aesthethics when you still need to do a lot of work in game.

I would had prefered if they actually did ? Yeah, but being the last faction to be unveiled, almost a month before the release, i didn't expect any different and i wouldn't call it missmanagement on their part, because i can't know it the resources they have avaible to actually make happen what you guys are wishing for.

I hope tho, that this time, the next beta runs smoother and they had improved the game.
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dark-whisperer
dark-whisperer


Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
posted August 13, 2015 07:22 PM

keldaur said:
Which is exactly my point. If you don't have the resources why would you dedicate more time to just dungeon aesthethics when you still need to do a lot of work in game.

I would had prefered if they actually did ? Yeah, but being the last faction to be unveiled, almost a month before the release, i didn't expect any different and i wouldn't call it missmanagement on their part, because i can't know it the resources they have avaible to actually make happen what you guys are wishing for.

I hope tho, that this time, the next beta runs smoother and they had improved the game.

What would you call it? Irresponsibility? Deceiving? Each faction should receive same amount of attention no matter when its revealed. Marzhin said that necro used  so many recycled units because it is unchanging faction (lore cop out) and now we have dungeon with half essentially untouched units from HVI.

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sandro400
sandro400


Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
posted August 13, 2015 08:38 PM

verriker said:
well I am not making a claim that Erwin is fully to blame for skillwheel, bugs, model recycle or release date, I blame him for the general bad foundation and mismanagement of the project and the lame sensibilities he imposed which contributed to these problems lol

for instance his unbendable rules of Ashan (seven schools, knights can't learn dark etc) have had a prescriptive impact on the skillwheel design, and if Heroes 7 is being given sparing resources due to Heroes 6 being a production disaster which killed its developer, yes he is to blame for that because he produced Heroes 6 lol

like you say he is also the most public figure, he will inevitably take the credit if the game is great and the blame if it is crap lol


Well, at least he's not fully to blame for what I mentioned. That's a progress. ^^

For seven schools I agree (though it's yet to see whether this concept will fail in H7), but about Knights - Avonu already taught you everything. ^^
And as a little reminder: H6 was a commercial success, and, in that regard, Erwan as producer did good (at least he hasn't failed in that).

Yep, and it pains me greatly that people's lovehatred goes to the public developer, while practically nobody here knows about "real" workers in the shadows. ^^

Btw, I'm interested in your opinion: what do you think about SC? Was it right or wrong thing to do?
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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 13, 2015 08:39 PM bonus applied by alcibiades on 14 Aug 2015.
Edited by Stevie at 20:44, 13 Aug 2015.

alcibiades said:
Well there was that developer interview which was published back around the time when the Paris event went off with some fan visitors (Stevie and Galaad participated iirc.). That interview was imo. quite enlightening in a very painful way. Erwin spoke about different design elements of the current game and how they corresponded with his "vision" of the game, and after I watched that interview, the amount of blame I feel we can pin on him grew significantly.


People who still delude themselves that Erwan and his creative team are not chiefly responsible for the state in which the franchise finds itself are either clueless about anything to arrive to the conclusion, or they are ill-intended and preaching deceit, mainly unto themselves. It may sound uncomfortable for many, but that's a cold, hard fact which I'm not about to dilute or stay silent about because of willingly ignorant people that even have the audacity to claim the contrary.

The only way this franchise has a chance at redeeming itself is a complete change in leading staff for an actually competent team with an established Heroes vision. Anything less than that will result in a mediocre package of compromise at best, which is effectively a waste of time, money and nerves. History will ONLY repeat itself, just as it happened with Heroes 6, just as it's been prophesied for Heroes 7 to the letter, and just as it will happen to Heroes 8 in the future. It is inevitable.
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icefield
icefield


Adventuring Hero
posted August 13, 2015 09:56 PM

I agree with the majority here, regarding lore, design, graphics.  But, how important is that?  For me:

I don't really care about rip-off designs and reused models since I don't play most contemporary games anyway.  I'm fine with the fact that graphics is just average, mainstream.  Lore is nice-to-have, but is it important for a good game?

I do care about gameplay.  From Alci's list:

Quote:

Criticism I find justified:

- Making this skill system after all the fire they got with Heroes 6 skill system



This is a valid point.  It's been said many times, the free-pick system is aimed at multiplayer, but how big is the chance that this game will get an active multiplayer community like H3 (still!) has?  Many factors enter that equation.  But if H7 becomes a good game, it definitely will have a single-player and hotseat fanbase, like all Heroes games before.

The current half-baked random system may turn out to be good after some experience and balancing, but it may also fail.  And this is not easy to modify in a substantial way.

Quote:

- Poor quality town screens [except Dungeon and partially Academy], again not listening to much of the feedback from Heroes 6 town screens (wall in front, for instance)
- Not listening to feedback on game and faction design themes (Spiderpolis for instance)
- Poorly constructed faction line-up vote system (letting us choose between three line-ups that all had some unwanted creatures and excluded some wanted creatures)



As said, it could be better, but I can get used to spiders and spikes, like I had to accept ugly design in H5.

Quote:

- Pushing lore in front of gameplay in terms of prioty when designing game



That's an attitude that I don't understand at all.  Ubi is producing a video game, not a novel or a movie.  Face it, you won't win a Pulitzer price with stories about Ashan (or Enroth, etc., whatever, for that matter).

Quote:

Criticism I don't find justified
- Re-using some models from H6 (BUT: They should not re-use those specific models that got the most criticism - like Lich and Black Dragon, which is exactly what they did)
- Similar units having similar models and animations (Bone Dragon and Black Dragon - they are both dragons, so it's ok they will be similar in animation)



Does anybody care about clumsy sprite animations in H3?  They also could have been better even at their own time, but it doesn't affect the game at all.

So I have another list of issues.  Also those have been discussed many times on the forums, but the development appears to point into a different direction.

- Platforms.  Will the game run on laptops with mediocre video?  I play games while traveling.  My recent games were those that I can get from GOG.  Heroes is turn-based strategy, you won't get hardcore gamers with their power racks into the fanbase anyway.

- Platforms, again.  No release on Mac and Linux?  Those are the users that appreciate turn-based strategy.

- Online connection and DRM.  Compared to H6, they have listened to the fans.  But it's still a long way ... H5 ToE was DRM-free from the beginning, anybody can remember?  Some recent games have been available from GOG immediately after release.  Adventure games are sold DRM-free.  Why not TBS?

- Variety.  The spell list is short.  Repeated unit abilities?  Fixed skill slots?  The skills themselves sound interesting (some of them), but it looks like a lot of balancing will be required, they like to start with everything OP.  Isn't this more important than the question whether unicorn is in or not, and which color?

- UI design.  This is being discussed in other threads.  Why do they want to reinvent the (skill-)wheel, if the screen layout of H3/H4 controls were close to optimal?  Take some inspiration from H3HD, WoG, insert skill tree/wheel, done.

- Plot and story (for campaigns).  Marzhin's war stories are promising, at least.  Still, this has to be transformed into (hopefully surprising) plot twists and to-the-point dialogue.  OK, nothing has been revealed yet, but let's note that this is more important for the game than all background lore combined.  I hope that they can bring back some of the mood of H2, Xeen and the like ...

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Sleeping_Sun
Sleeping_Sun


Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
posted August 13, 2015 10:29 PM bonus applied by alcibiades on 14 Aug 2015.

Are we being reasonable in our expectations of the developers?

Interesting question, yet answers might be more interesting...

The old fans have high expectations of the game as they are used to the good old NWC approach: building upon the previous title. Hence, the quality and expectations are raised with every new title. Though, not all are satisfied with the result, as some love H3, others love H2, but a significant upgrade of the previous game is undeniable.

Ubisoft started with NWC approach by building upon the old, which birthed H5. However, instead of going into the same direction again, it totally reinvented the franchise with H6, hence the fiasco. With H7 it appears that it is trying to merge both H5 and H6, but it simply is not working... Personally I would like to hear an Ubi representative to give us an account of their vision, not to justify their actions, but to enable us to comprehend their thinking. Personally, I'm a bit demoralized by Marzhin's words (many posts ago in H7 discussion thread) that they are making A heroes game and not THE game that will beat H3, which is in my opinion a very bad and wrong attitude, especially when fans demand a high quality game, and that means either being on par with H3/H5 or better.

I must thank Stevie, for posting the link to Capheus' post. How Ubi failed to implement what VIP fans advised them, first during the development of H6 and then H7? It is really an interesting thing, especially since some members like JJ have demonstrated great knowledge of game mechanics and other intricate things related to the gameplay. How is it possible that while fans advise them, they make H6 with no mage guild, skills=spells, specialities as dull bonuses, reduced resources, etc. And yet again, such specialities return in H7, pseudo skill pizza, etc. I'm now starting to believe that either Ubi does not listen, or the person(s) who discussed such things with VIP fans have either said nothing to the higher ups, or they sent altered message to them.

And then we come to Alci's question again: Are we being reasonable in our expectations of the developers? I believe that we are reasonable. We might not like aesthetics of the game, but if we enjoy the gameplay, aesthetics and even lore becomes insignificant, in my opinion. Though, I'm sure that we can agree that a new game should provide at least recoloured units if they are so eager to reuse the models. I hated H5 visuals, but I liked the gameplay. But what killed me was abnormally long AI turns. But eventually I was ok with the aesthetics of H5. Similarly, I'm going adjust to the H7 visuals as long as it provides a good gameplay. Though the gameplay of H7 is still debatable.

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GenyaArikado
GenyaArikado


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
posted August 13, 2015 10:47 PM bonus applied by alcibiades on 14 Aug 2015.
Edited by GenyaArikado at 22:53, 13 Aug 2015.

Stevie said:
"Are we being reasonable in our expectations of the developers?"

Definitely not. Not because of us, but because of them. This display of incompetence renders any kind of expectation, no matter how small, utterly unreasonable.


this...this embodies all what's wrong with this forum.

I do believe that most of you are unreasonable and illogical. It's not that Ubisoft isnt flawless, far from it, they ran PoP to the ground and they're currently doing it with AC. I wouldnt say they have done so with Heroes because it was already on the ground since H4 and TRSs just arent going to be popular like shooters or games of that kind, so it's probably never going to surge and be mainstream, although i do think that H5 and H6 were too buggy.

There is a difference between wanting to include the ONLINE community and said community feeling entitled to have the developers do whatever they want.

First because it's impossible to please everyone
Second because heroes is probably a relatively parasite franchise and sadly is never going to have an awesome budget. It's just not mainstream
Third because Heroes has an ESTABLISHED universe
And Fourth, because a lot of the feedback is contradictory, even feedback that comes from the same persons

Their universe is dinamic enough to be able to pull factional creature crossing like the old games did, and to have creatures have certain range of looks. There is a difference between that, and wanting to change the whole aesthetic and rules of the universe. Disliking something aesthetically is very very valid. Calling it objetively bad because you dont like it isnt.

There is also this notion that lore controls everything up to gameplay that is so wrong. Lore controls story and aesthetics, but it's seasoned around gameplay. H7 doesnt have 7 schools of magic because Ashan has 7 schools, its the opposite. If they wanted more or less they would have done it, an seasoned the lore to fit it. Same with faction abilities and with Hero skillsets. They concieve ideas, attempt to balance and then season lore around what they made.

People here need to get out of their heads the bs HC-centric theory. The constant posters here are around 100 people, i think. If Heroes 7 sells 100k units, we're less than 1% Even the SC is a tiny representation of the buyers.


Now on the stuff that i do think that are valid complaints

-Blatant model recycling: I dont have any problem with it, but it is a new game so it should be...well...new or at least spiced up enough.

-Low quality assets: the artwork used for creature portraits is frankly, terrible, amateur. I literally can do better (well, not on photoshop but with a pencil i can XD). I understand all the limitations and pressure the artist must have been in but it's truly half assed. Same with dungeon textures (i truly hope they uploaded the wrong dragon models, those textures are just no)

-Bugs: No game is bugless but those black screen bugs in H6 were just too common to be acceptable.

-Balance: Plenty of ideas look great in paper and you dont see how snowty they are until they're mass tested. But others are just plain silly just giving them a second thought (for example, flanking while using squares as battlefield)


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PandaTar
PandaTar


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
posted August 13, 2015 11:09 PM

alcibiades said:
Are we being reasonable in our expectations of UbiSoft and the development team?


I think that, no matter how one sees the game, any expectation is reasonable. Each one can judge their own reasons, no matter how they are perceived by other people, who might think otherwise.

Quote:
- Making this skill system after all the fire they got with Heroes 6 skill system


This is them proving the first answer veracity. No matter how people argued about it, their perception of skill seemed good as it is, which I find terrible, but there it is, dreadfully done.

Quote:
- Poor quality town screens, again not listening to much of the feedback from Heroes 6 town screens


I didn't like any of them. Dungeon, perhaps, the only one that seemed a bit more vast, still, the same basic oddity of concept. If they find that fit for the game, bless them.

Quote:
- Not listening to feedback on game and faction design themes


Except when extreme actions were taken, I don't think factions would ever change. Everything seemed settled since the very beginning. I am one that felt hoodwinked by all this SC proposal, but again, my perception. There are people who think everything is just fine as it is, and I won't say they are wrong. They are not just on the same page of the book that I am.

Quote:
- Pushing lore in front of gameplay in terms of priority when designing game


It was seen, since the very beginning, the focus on those stories and artworks instead of gameplay. Still, people did enjoyed the reading, which gave a boost at devs own expectations to keep writing those articles, articles which didn't have many rants as others did. I was one that was always asking about mechanics, always vaguely presented, while some people drooled over artworks and thought everything was heavenly fine. Obviously, leaving gameplay and mechanics feedback for last, when there would have no time to rework them, was part of the project itself. Or so I think.

Quote:
- Poorly constructed faction line-up vote system


Whichever reasons they did it that way, I found it lousy.

Quote:
- Re-using some models from H6 (BUT: They should not re-use those specific models that got the most criticism - like Lich and Black Dragon, which is exactly what they did)


Another lousy thing, specially because it goes against their speeches of budget costs somehow. I do think that they should preview a renew design of the whole thing in their budget before thinking on copies and, if they decided copying anything, to be fair in the final price of the product, which is not what's happening either.

Quote:
- Similar units having similar models and animations (Bone Dragon and Black Dragon - they are both dragons, so it's ok they will be similar in animation)


In H3, there were plenty of dragons with similar animations, body positioning etc. Never bothered me. They were quite distinct one from the other though, either visually and ability-wise.

Another thing I find reasonable to discuss is their philosophy, let me try and find the quote that made me 100% sure of not buying this travesty of a game ... here:

Quote:
We have a feeling that some people truly believe that more complexity and constraints in a system makes it better, however, we donít share this belief.


This was a clear signal of their resilience and after a twinge, every small trace of hope I still had for a deeper mechanic system faded, and that was also an statement which I perceived would stretch to other aspects of the game in due course, and things flowed that way. Again, in my perception. Still, there are butterflies and happiness about the game for some souls, and I'm relieved they won't use my money to buy this awful product, nor will I help it keep going.


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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
posted August 13, 2015 11:28 PM

Stevie said:
The only way this franchise has a chance at redeeming itself is a complete change in leading staff for an actually competent team with an established Heroes vision. Anything less than that will result in a mediocre package of compromise at best, which is effectively a waste of time, money and nerves. History will ONLY repeat itself, just as it happened with Heroes 6, just as it's been prophesied for Heroes 7 to the letter, and just as it will happen to Heroes 8 in the future. It is inevitable.


man oh man, respect to that guy who fought to maintain high standards, if only he could see the terrible state of things now lol
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Manta
Manta


Adventuring Hero
posted August 13, 2015 11:57 PM

Honestly, I don't mind them reusing H6 models. I don't even mind the black dragon, I actually liked that model(unlike most people apparently). I don't know how much other stuff is broken, I'll just have to wait for the 2nd beta and see how it is before making any assumptions about how bad it is currently. I've liked every single heroes game(including H6)so I expect to like this one as well.

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