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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: Are we being reasonable in our expectations of the developers?
Thread: Are we being reasonable in our expectations of the developers? This thread is 11 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 · «PREV / NEXT»
Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted August 14, 2015 12:08 AM

Sleeping_Sun said:
Ubisoft started with NWC approach by building upon the old, which birthed H5.

Gameplay-wise and gameplay-wise only. Please don't disregard that.
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Sleeping_Sun
Sleeping_Sun


Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
posted August 14, 2015 12:37 AM

Galaad said:
Sleeping_Sun said:
Ubisoft started with NWC approach by building upon the old, which birthed H5.

Gameplay-wise and gameplay-wise only. Please don't disregard that.
Yes, I meant gameplay. I should have mention that in my post.

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ChrisD1
ChrisD1


Supreme Hero
posted August 14, 2015 11:54 AM

GenyaArikado said:
Stevie said:
"Are we being reasonable in our expectations of the developers?"

Definitely not. Not because of us, but because of them. This display of incompetence renders any kind of expectation, no matter how small, utterly unreasonable.


this...this embodies all what's wrong with this forum.

I do believe that most of you are unreasonable and illogical. It's not that Ubisoft isnt flawless, far from it, they ran PoP to the ground and they're currently doing it with AC. I wouldnt say they have done so with Heroes because it was already on the ground since H4 and TRSs just arent going to be popular like shooters or games of that kind, so it's probably never going to surge and be mainstream, although i do think that H5 and H6 were too buggy.

There is a difference between wanting to include the ONLINE community and said community feeling entitled to have the developers do whatever they want.

First because it's impossible to please everyone
Second because heroes is probably a relatively parasite franchise and sadly is never going to have an awesome budget. It's just not mainstream
Third because Heroes has an ESTABLISHED universe
And Fourth, because a lot of the feedback is contradictory, even feedback that comes from the same persons

Their universe is dinamic enough to be able to pull factional creature crossing like the old games did, and to have creatures have certain range of looks. There is a difference between that, and wanting to change the whole aesthetic and rules of the universe. Disliking something aesthetically is very very valid. Calling it objetively bad because you dont like it isnt.

There is also this notion that lore controls everything up to gameplay that is so wrong. Lore controls story and aesthetics, but it's seasoned around gameplay. H7 doesnt have 7 schools of magic because Ashan has 7 schools, its the opposite. If they wanted more or less they would have done it, an seasoned the lore to fit it. Same with faction abilities and with Hero skillsets. They concieve ideas, attempt to balance and then season lore around what they made.

People here need to get out of their heads the bs HC-centric theory. The constant posters here are around 100 people, i think. If Heroes 7 sells 100k units, we're less than 1% Even the SC is a tiny representation of the buyers.


Now on the stuff that i do think that are valid complaints

-Blatant model recycling: I dont have any problem with it, but it is a new game so it should be...well...new or at least spiced up enough.

-Low quality assets: the artwork used for creature portraits is frankly, terrible, amateur. I literally can do better (well, not on photoshop but with a pencil i can XD). I understand all the limitations and pressure the artist must have been in but it's truly half assed. Same with dungeon textures (i truly hope they uploaded the wrong dragon models, those textures are just no)

-Bugs: No game is bugless but those black screen bugs in H6 were just too common to be acceptable.

-Balance: Plenty of ideas look great in paper and you dont see how snowty they are until they're mass tested. But others are just plain silly just giving them a second thought (for example, flanking while using squares as battlefield)




Aaaand this post goes unnoticed which actually sleaks the complete truth about this "community". It's 100% what is happening here. I will repost this every now and then if the subject is similar to this. Like really.
And my question to genya, aren't you mad about that? Saying smth that clear and logical,and yet nobody gives a damn?/and no  i m not being sarcastic.
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sandro400
sandro400


Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
posted August 14, 2015 12:10 PM

Genya received a QP for his post already. Is there any higher praise on this forum? ^^
Just wait before some other members return to HC. Not too much time passed between Genya's post and now.
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keldaur
keldaur


Adventuring Hero
posted August 14, 2015 01:02 PM

dark-whisperer said:
keldaur said:
Which is exactly my point. If you don't have the resources why would you dedicate more time to just dungeon aesthethics when you still need to do a lot of work in game.

I would had prefered if they actually did ? Yeah, but being the last faction to be unveiled, almost a month before the release, i didn't expect any different and i wouldn't call it missmanagement on their part, because i can't know it the resources they have avaible to actually make happen what you guys are wishing for.

I hope tho, that this time, the next beta runs smoother and they had improved the game.

What would you call it? Irresponsibility? Deceiving? Each faction should receive same amount of attention no matter when its revealed. Marzhin said that necro used  so many recycled units because it is unchanging faction (lore cop out) and now we have dungeon with half essentially untouched units from HVI.

No, lack of resources, and when i am speaking about resources i am speaking about budget constraints.
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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted August 14, 2015 01:17 PM
Edited by Galaad at 13:20, 14 Aug 2015.

Are we being reasonable in our expectations of the developers?

All in all, I think is a matter of perspective.

Is in my very own personal opinion that my expectations for the brand are perfectly legit. Be it in regard of gameplay (strong aspect on the random element, imaginative hero specs, well-thought out skills and spells, good resource management and interesting town construction, battles requiring more strategy than size of the army, awesome and unique specs etc), in visuals (clear and visible adventure map, town screens, not over-the-top designed creatures, no recycling from a game to another, no creatures heavily influenced by other successful brands but something more unique to the franchise itself, good UI etc), lore (at least that it shouldnít have such an impact on immersion and even to some extent, the gameplay itself with too many magic schools IMO); or even things like avoiding a bugfest at release. All I ask for in the end is a game which could, if not surpass (I still think it is fairly possible) at least not feel like a downgrade from the old games. In the end I just want to finally be able to put Heroes III and V to the closet because the new one would be so awesome the only reason to play these anymore would be nostalgia and nostalgia alone, not because I enjoy them more for various reasons.
I honestly donít see what is wrong in building upon something successful and improve it further keeping in line with its spirit and feel. Why does the Team feels so much the need to reinvent the wheel ...

Although, from the Ubilimb side of the coin, it looks like I am not being not reasonable at all, since my demands and expectations are the way I see it in total contradiction with the work they are doing. When I take a closer look to it, all I see is they seem to think I reject all they propose, and I believe they might think I am some close-minded angry conservative not willing to give them a chance. This is not true, and to be perfectly honest, I really tried to like h6, I really did, but I couldnít pass the boredom that game had on me. In my opinion, I did give a chance to that game, but it only did hurt me more and convince me further in my opinion that they are going a wrong direction.


One thing which really angered me though, probably the most above all, is that we were told this iteration was going back to the roots, and from the articles revealed down the blog and even by playing the beta, I donít see much connection with the old games, I see an evolution from VI, including some features from the old games, but not so much and not with the intention and direction I would have wished for.
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dark-whisperer
dark-whisperer


Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
posted August 14, 2015 01:23 PM
Edited by dark-whisperer at 13:26, 14 Aug 2015.

@Keldaur
Then they should be open with that. They should clearly say that HALF of the dungeon units will have SAME model as HVI ones.
Can I pay them with half of the money I already gave for HVI? Why should I accept to pay full price and get half new units? And the worst part is that I even would shut up and pay (in fact I have preordered and now I just wont shut up) but recycled units are abysmal. Shame on them for hiding the truth when we had the chance to react.

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Sleeping_Sun
Sleeping_Sun


Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
posted August 14, 2015 01:28 PM

@ChrisD1:

"I do believe that most of you are unreasonable and illogical."
Belief =/= fact. On this forum, people have expressed more reason and logic than developers who want to give the best playable experience by providing us with copy-paste boring hero specialities. So much reason and logic is in that decision than it is seen here, I totally agree.

"I wouldnt say they have done so with Heroes because it was already on the ground since H4"
H4 represents the bottom (according to some, but no all), then H5 goes onto the top (Tribes) , followed by the H6 bottom again... What were you saying again? Talking about being illogical and unreasonable community, while developer is being full of logic and reason, especially when fans advised them what to do, how to correct things and lo and behold! things fall apart...

"TRSs just arent going to be popular like shooters or games of that kind, so it's probably never going to surge and be mainstream"
I don't have any argument against this, but life has thought me that I should never say never. In addition, that what is popular may change after some time...

"There is a difference between wanting to include the ONLINE community and said community feeling entitled to have the developers do whatever they want."
There is a difference, yes. It is nice of them to include us. But why no one mentions that we are included too late to influence the gameplay? Skilwheel anybody? It is revealed to late to do something about that. Yes, we decided the factions, TSs and lineups, though many pointed out that it could have been done better, by voting for each creature separately.
In addition, the said community knows more about the game and the consequences of bad ideas and mechanics than developers. Just read JJs posts, you don't have to agree with him, but the guy just knows things. And he is not the only one with the quality posts. Is it not reasonable, in that case, to listen to the ones who have more experience? Capheus, JJ, and maybe some other people tried to influence them through VIP forums, and yet nothing was done!!! If VIP forum didn't work, what chance does SC have to alter something? If they are not able through normal discussion to improve things before implementing a new thing, then the only thing left to do is really to spam, create chaos, revolution and to raise pitchforks at them. All praise to Galaad for his SC activity and contribution to the game (Vampire and Lich). I guess that in that case, community is really entitled to "boss around" in order to decide what happens in the franchise. After all, the people want the quality game, so I guess that we should order them around (regardless of how rude, sharp, and nasty this sounds).

"First because it's impossible to please everyone
Second because heroes is probably a relatively parasite franchise and sadly is never going to have an awesome budget. It's just not mainstream
Third because Heroes has an ESTABLISHED universe
And Fourth, because a lot of the feedback is contradictory, even feedback that comes from the same persons"

First: I agree. We all have different tastes, which is noticeable in the different reception of Dungeon models. Some like them, some hate them.
Second: A parasite franchise??? Not sure what this means... And yes it is not going to have an awesome budged because as Verricer said, Ubi made H6 with poor decisions (though not all agree to this, as well). Also, we cannot expect a good game if the owner of franchise does not invest in it. You cannot get something great for nothing... well, maybe such thing can happen, but then Blackhole fiasco happens...
Third: Yes, it has established universe. It might have been better that they started with Might and Magic: Heroes I, Instead of creating Heroes of Might and Magic V. Lol! That way they would at least partially escape the heavy burden of HOMM legacy, that is becoming impossible to read, watch and bear on their spiderly legs... Now, there is no use of crying over the opened Sheogh... lol.
Fourth: Maybe I didn't pay enough attention to this, but I would like to know who are the persons in question...

"There is also this notion that lore controls everything up to gameplay that is so wrong. Lore controls story and aesthetics, but it's seasoned around gameplay. H7 doesnt have 7 schools of magic because Ashan has 7 schools, its the opposite. If they wanted more or less they would have done it, an seasoned the lore to fit it. Same with faction abilities and with Hero skillsets. They concieve ideas, attempt to balance and then season lore around what they made."
Lore doesn't control everything? H5 had 4 magic schools that were quite distinct and functional, and imo they should not have change that, but lo! in H6 there are now 7 schools: 4 elemental, 2 twilight, and 1 Prime consisting of Order=Asha, Chaos=Urghash, and Void. H5 featured spider elements in Necropolis but it was not imposed and it actually blended very well with the faction, I didn't mind it there. One of my favourite heroes in Necropolis is Raven (Spider on the head), Arantir (Spider again), along with Lucretia and Kaspar. But H6 and H7 went with spider theme to the extreme... Dragon units looking the same way dragon gods look like, colour coding of the dragon gods transferred to the faction: units, townscreen, spells they can learn, yada, yada... Sanctuary (most likely) not appearing in H7 because of lore...

"People here need to get out of their heads the bs HC-centric theory. The constant posters here are around 100 people, i think. If Heroes 7 sells 100k units, we're less than 1% Even the SC is a tiny representation of the buyers."


I'll add that HC-centricism is justifiable as long as Ubi's actions allow that...

Satisfied?

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keldaur
keldaur


Adventuring Hero
posted August 14, 2015 01:32 PM

About Sanctuary and the lore.

Make a poll in some neutral ground to see how popular really Sanctuary is when pitched against Haven, Stronghold, Necropolis, Dungeon, Sylvans, Academy. I would even add inferno and i know for sure all of them would be more popular, and probably by a large margin.


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keldaur
keldaur


Adventuring Hero
posted August 14, 2015 01:48 PM

dark-whisperer said:
@Keldaur
Then they should be open with that. They should clearly say that HALF of the dungeon units will have SAME model as HVI ones.
Can I pay them with half of the money I already gave for HVI? Why should I accept to pay full price and get half new units? And the worst part is that I even would shut up and pay (in fact I have preordered and now I just wont shut up) but recycled units are abysmal. Shame on them for hiding the truth when we had the chance to react.
Well, they could deceiving and waiting until the very last moment to keep as many pre-orders as possible (i actually got a refund on mine, due to game mechanichs and the bugs). They hide Dungeon until the very last moment because they couldn't afford to actually make complete new looks for a faction, and they bet on a majority of people liking dungeon's look from H6 (i know i do).

Or the most simple answer, they released the looks when they were able to, and were realistic about what they could do due to all the gameplay mechanichs that are broken and bugs, and opted for what they thought would please the widest array of customers.

In the scenario about being deceiving, i don't understand why they would offer the option to beta test dungeon before release if they really did intent to hide it. Why let the community even vote for it?

You could think that's because they are incompetent, but you don't know what their resources for the project had been. The preorder beta was a blatant grab for the most part to inject money into the project, which is very probably to have a very low budget compared to game's development costs nowadays.

So to me, the missmanagement wouldn't be on dungeon's models being recycled, but if the game is released on a poor state of bugs and balance, which probably, it will.
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EnergyZ
EnergyZ


Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
posted August 14, 2015 02:14 PM

keldaur said:
In the scenario about being deceiving, i don't understand why they would offer the option to beta test dungeon before release if they really did intent to hide it. Why let the community even vote for it?


People wanted the truth, see how Dungeon units were made as soon as possible and test them out. And yet, we got a lot of reused units.

Devs claimed to have gone off from H6, but from what is seen, this doesn't apply in graphics nor gameplay. It feels like just some flowers spouted out of H6; enough that the whole game has new features here and there, but base is H6.

If they intended to do as they said, we wouldn't have three-tier system, slow combat and hero movement on the map, more spells per school and a better random system. All of this feels like it was lazily done and I don't buy the fact they don't have money. It could've been invested in better things, rather than realistic graphics or silly animations. And this does not yet mention how to polish the gameplay.

If it were just re-used models (and that includes, say, two-three per faction), it could be understood. But it is not just units, but skills, spells, heroes and other things. This all smells like H6 to anyone that played it, and most of them did not want to do anything with anything beyond it.

And if H6 was a failure, H7 doesn't smell like a success, either, putting H8's existance even more in question.

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GenyaArikado
GenyaArikado


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
posted August 14, 2015 02:46 PM

Quote:
Second: A parasite franchise??? Not sure what this means... And yes it is not going to have an awesome budged because as Verricer said, Ubi made H6 with poor decisions (though not all agree to this, as well). Also, we cannot expect a good game if the owner of franchise does not invest in it. You cannot get something great for nothing... well, maybe such thing can happen, but then Blackhole fiasco happens...
Third: Yes, it has established universe. It might have been better that they started with Might and Magic: Heroes I, Instead of creating Heroes of Might and Magic V. Lol!


-What i meant is that i'm not quite sure that M&M properly makes back it's expenses. Talking from a monetary stance, i think Ubisoft thinks that regardless they make a huge effort or not, the game will sell more or less the same. It's an awful mindset, although probably true. H6 didnt have an awesome budget either, remember why we had a cut faction and no town screens

-They already gave their reasons to not continue with the Old Universe (Which are something like "They made a world but didnt keep records of it) I also believe that they wanted to distance themselves from H4 fiasco but the reasons they gave are valid in my opinion. As a Warcraft fan who has seen the lore being ran to the ground, i appreciate a developer who wants to keep things consistent over the "rule of cool"

Quote:
Lore doesn't control everything? H5 had 4 magic schools that were quite distinct and functional, and imo they should not have change that, but lo! in H6 there are now 7 schools: 4 elemental, 2 twilight, and 1 Prime consisting of Order=Asha, Chaos=Urghash, and Void. H5 featured spider elements in Necropolis but it was not imposed and it actually blended very well with the faction, I didn't mind it there. One of my favourite heroes in Necropolis is Raven (Spider on the head), Arantir (Spider again), along with Lucretia and Kaspar. But H6 and H7 went with spider theme to the extreme... Dragon units looking the same way dragon gods look like, colour coding of the dragon gods transferred to the faction: units, townscreen, spells they can learn, yada, yada... Sanctuary (most likely) not appearing in H7 because of lore...


As i said before, that's a gameplay decision first. Had they wanted to make 4, they would have grouped what we have now, madeup some names and tadaa.

The part about spiders and dragons of your posts, well, that's what i said. Lore controls aesthetics and design. What i said before also applies as well, disliking it is ok, saying that is objetively garbage because you dislike it isnt.

Sleeping_Sun said:



I'll add that HC-centricism is justifiable as long as Ubi's actions allow that...

Satisfied?


I was talking about the "OMG THE FANS HATED X (ie, the H6 black dragon) AND THEY KEEP DOING IT" type of comments. No, less than 1% of the buyers outright said it and they still bought the game. If you truly wanna be that guy instead of a sheep, the true response should be to not buy the game

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted August 14, 2015 03:35 PM

GenyaArikado said:
I was talking about the "OMG THE FANS HATED X (ie, the H6 black dragon) AND THEY KEEP DOING IT" type of comments. No, less than 1% of the buyers outright said it and they still bought the game.


Still, it doesn't matter how many people said it relative to the amount of copies they sold, but relative to the number of people who said they liked or even loved it. But I don't believe we even have a guestimate on that. And yes, I do realise it's easier to give criticism than to give compliments.

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kiryu133
kiryu133


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
posted August 14, 2015 03:38 PM

I really don't get the "OMG, stop bashing it, you have no individuality!" arguments. Especially when it's said alongside "stop bashing it, you're a minority" which is a pretty heavy contradiction.

Personally, I think most of the blame for H6-7 can be put on the creative director and the insistence of everything being tied by lore. Lore should never stand in the way of quality like it so clearly does here. Lore should be enriching and a bonus, not the deciding factor unless narrative is an important part of the game/gameplay like, say Bioshock.

Now back to topic. All criticism is fair. That's it. There is nothing else to it. Heroes 7 is a product made for consumption as well as a piece of art and has every right to be criticised as such. Any cries to stop that is trying to censor voices speaking up against part of the product.

Now whether people are actually criticizing or not is what should really be asked. Criticism should be aimed at the product and its creators. nothing else s is common both here and the CS where people are being criticised instead. It's ok criticising the abundance of re-used models, unimaginative hero specialties, similar animation as long as it's those you criticize. when you target people and their criticisms you're not adding anything to the discussion.

Now what i think: scrap the setting. Its done nothing but force things into the game no one really wants and stopped interesting or good mechanics from being both introduced or retained. It's quite frankly a mess and needs to stop. Get rid of the creative director and start anew without any lore obligations. Do that and at least 70% of the problems will be fixed.
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GenyaArikado
GenyaArikado


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
posted August 14, 2015 03:48 PM

If you are talking about me...well, unsurprisingly, you either didnt read, didnt understand or were uninsterested in context.

"Stop bashing you have no individuality"? I didnt say that. I didnt even say stop bashing, but rather, bash it right, because frankly stuff like "scrap Ashan" and proceeding to give OPINIONS as reasons makes you come off as entitled crybabies more than anything else.

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kiryu133
kiryu133


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
posted August 14, 2015 04:01 PM

I wasn't. Was mostly talking in general terms.
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drusain
drusain

Tavern Dweller
posted August 14, 2015 04:47 PM bonus applied by Elvin on 30 Aug 2015.
Edited by drusain at 16:55, 14 Aug 2015.

Yes, it reasonable for me to say that H7 has failed to meet my expectations.

When Limbic posted their production schedule on the blog on the New Year, the first thing I thought was "hm, this doesn't leave much time for programming and polish, and the upcoming beta will likely have game-breaking bugs" which is what happened. The production planning for this game has failed to meet my expectations.

When Spiderpolis was shown, it caused such a clamor that the blog had to post a reminder for posters to be nice on the comments. It was clear that the Spiderpolis town screen was not what the fans wanted, but the only official response about Spiderpolis was to quell criticism about it. This failed to meet my expectations that Limbic knew what the fans wanted.

What cost them my purchase was Limbic's response to the criticisms of the skill "wheel," which is, in reality, one of the most crucial aspects of the game. In this article ( https://mmh7.ubi.com/en/blog/post/view/skillwheel-the-design-philosophy ), several lies and rude language was blathered to us. Even Answer 1 was a flat-out lie, since all heroes had opportunities to have any ability, just some factions had higher changes to get specific abilities. In fact, you can make the case that THAT was what made the Heroes franchise special and unique in the first place!

And on a sidenote from the above paragraph, Limbic choosing to completely lock out skills from certain factions seems very shortsighted to me. Some factions have the Logistics (Explorer) tree and some don't, which is going to be a huge deal in multiplayer when some factions will essentially be able to cover up to 50% more ground than other factions and be impossible to catch.

And the lie/mispresetation of Answer 8 shows the lack of understanding what the skill wheel was: just a visual representation of how special skills were derived from having a combination of prerequisites. That was one of the clever things that came out of H5, and there was strategy in mixing abilities to allow new special abilities. The skill "wheel" shown for H7 has no agency for this, making the wheel purely aesthetic and no different than if it had been designed with the straight line aesthetic in H6. This is not clever.

So yes, I am allowed to say H7 fails to meet my expectations because it has actually failed to meet my expectations. Prior to the New Year, I had a lot of high hopes for this game, and the transparency with multiple blog posts explaining what was going on in the production made me hopeful. But after the New Year, it's been harder and harder to really defend much of H7's philosophies at all, and subjectively, I don't think I'd have fun playing it.

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Manta
Manta


Adventuring Hero
posted August 14, 2015 05:37 PM

Honestly, for me H7 has exceeded my expectations.

My expectations were very low from the start, and its looking to me like it'll be much better than H6. Maybe its cause I don't care if they reuse models or not.

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The_Polyglot
The_Polyglot


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted August 14, 2015 05:45 PM

Expectations? After H6 I have none. Ubi effed up, Erwan effed up, and the last good Heroes game is 15 years old this year. End of story, move along, nothing to see here.
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Kimarous
Kimarous


Supreme Hero
posted August 14, 2015 06:20 PM

I think some people are missing the point of this thread. It's not about "whether Heroes 7 has lived up to your expectations", but "are our expectations of the developers reasonable?" As a general point, I strongly disagree with those that claim "all expectations are reasonable," because that is objectively false.

I accept that certain expectations are reasonable to a point. That is, to say, that expectations should be tempered when certain factors are taken into account. For example, let's use the medusa. It's reasonable to think the medusa will be... well, a medusa. I also think that, for those ignorant of the lore of Ashan, that a medusa is likely to resemble an older incarnation, such as the depiction in H3. However, I do not think it is reasonable for someone aware of the lore of Ashan, and taking into account the track record Ubisoft has with their stringent adherence to lore, to expect that the medusa would be anything but what we got. "Hoping against hope that Ubisoft finally makes a heel-face turn" is not reasonable, no matter how you spin it.

I will also address a point that seems to confuse a lot of people, at least concerning my stance on H7. When I oppose a lot of the "change this thing / remodel this thing" notions, it's not because I think they are in the wrong. I do not think their desire for such changes is unreasonable. However, I do think it is unreasonable for Ubisoft, as a company, to acquiesce to those alterations. The Heroes series, whether you want to admit it or not, is a niche market and their budget/timetable is limited. The more time and effort is spent on redoing existing material is time and effort lost on other aspects of the game. Which ones, I know not, but I consider it prudent and reasonable to spend more time and effort polishing the existing elements than reconstructing them from the ground up.

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