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| Thread: Natural? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · NEXT» |
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Doomforge
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posted January 10, 2016 11:49 AM |
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Natural?
This is something that's been bugging me for a long time. Basically, many people, when seeing a person that has "worked" for a better physical appearance in many ways - including surgical - say it's "plastic", fake. Then they go on how they think natural is something to be praised.
But "natural" is just something you "win" when you're born. You don't work for it, you just have it.
"plastic" on the other hand takes money, dedication, and a will to suffer and/or embrace whatever consequences that may come.
So why are people in such awe of something that just doesn't take any work, any dedication?
Why is society in constant praise of people who were just born with a "I win" ticket in hand? they're already winners. Do we really need to praise them even more? It is kinda unfair, to be honest.
A friend of mine doing some basic photomodelling was harshly criticized by a couple of "critics" that her hair and breasts are fake, and that her teeth have been whitened, which makes her a "fake doll". They compared her with some sort of natural beauty that is their reference. Okay, but the natural beauty was just born that way and lies on her butt whole day doing nothing and collecting praise, while the "fake" one spent so much time, money and effort in the gym, beauty sallons and stuff... she worked to look good, and now people are trashing her for that. Idk, just seems royally unfair to me. Why criticize the effort...
it's the same society that applauds "work" and sneers at people who are just born rich and spend most of their time on Dan Bilzerian style of activities... isn't that hypocrisy?
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William
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LummoxLewis
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posted January 10, 2016 12:00 PM |
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Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I always think that if someone goes out and changes their appearance with plastic surgery or whatever the case may be then they are insecure about their appearance. You have got this entirely backwards. Natural is, to me, something to be in awe of. The very fact that they look naturally beautiful to many people is a good thing and all credit to them if they didn't use a single thing to alter their appearance. There is nothing remotely good, in my opinion, of using money to change yourself. It's essentially giving into what society thinks is beautiful and following the norm. Everybody should be confident in their appearance and if they aren't then they would have the personality to back it up.
I can only speak for myself in this regard. I am not the best looking bloke out there. I know there's one that thinks I am everything but that's another story altogether. I am confident in my looks without having an over inflated opinion about myself. Where I go well in society is that I have a good personality. That isn't what I think but what people tell me. Generally I'm a very likable person and never have any trouble getting friends wherever I go. I would never think of getting work done on myself to try and make me look more attractive because someone out there will appreciate me for who I am and not for what I can be and THAT is where this, imo, gets down to. The fact that they think they have to change to follow a social norm which is crap in this day and age but it is what is done rather than focusing on what could be in the future with someone who will appreciate them for who they are.
I can understand why some people might be jealous of how others are naturally beautiful and want to capture that within themselves. I wasn't born with the best looks nor do I have a six pack and big muscles and so on but I'm happy with the person that I am and I'm sure someone out there will appreciate that. It's not about winning. That is the wrong way to see it. You also see it wrong, imo, with praising the people who spend money to change. It's like in a relationship when the woman wants you to change this that and the other. You'll then think "Oh does she love me for me or for who I can be?". That is the exact same situation here and that is nothing to praise at all. In fact, they are weak minded for actually following a norm which is completely backwards. We should really be praising people for being THEMSELVES and for being completely true to themselves.
If this is the state of the world that we are in right now where we should be praising those who go out and do work to themselves then I'm not entirely sure I want to be on this planet anymore.
I am interested in why you think the way you do. In no way am I attacking you by the way, so hopefully you don't take this the wrong way. 
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~Ticking away the moments that
make up a dull day, Fritter and
waste the hours in an off-hand
way~
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Zenofex
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posted January 10, 2016 12:15 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 12:15, 10 Jan 2016.
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Um... how come someone who spends a lot of time and effort - for example in the gym, via some sport, etc. - to improve his or her appearance is not "natural"?
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William
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LummoxLewis
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posted January 10, 2016 12:55 PM |
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That is most definitely natural and is a good thing as it's healthy but paying for surgery and so on is not and is trying to be something you're not. Unless that post by yours, Zenofex, wasn't directed at me then disregard this post.
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~Ticking away the moments that
make up a dull day, Fritter and
waste the hours in an off-hand
way~
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 10, 2016 01:55 PM |
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Edited by artu at 13:56, 10 Jan 2016.
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The thing is, people only say that when the plastic surgery or any other artificial modification is poorly done or overdone, that is, when the change actually looks like an anomaly. Physical attraction is biological and we are genetically programmed to be repelled by anomalies. In the wild, they meant disease or handicap.
There are many movie stars, super models who had moderate plastic surgery calculated to "appear" natural and they dont get the same reaction, have you ever seen someone who thought Jennifer Anniston's nose or Nicole Kidman's face look ugly? Because they are done right, not exaggerated. Only tasteless men who are not refined, fetishists or teenagers like that plastic, huge boob/ass type bimbos, they are the Justin Biebers of modeling.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Homer171
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posted January 10, 2016 02:21 PM |
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I understand if someone has born whit, let's say a giant mole in it's face, surgeon is understandable or car accident..
But to have surgery that you would feel 'pretty' is just shallow. You should have other ways to feel good about yourself. In most cases plastic surgery is just that, not accepting the reality, you get old eventually and there is no such thing as perfect looks in the end. Grow up people is my advice.
Damn you Austin Powers can't get it out of my head, moley, moley, moley, moley... Hey here is a guy whit no good looks but he has some mojo, call it selfconfidence if you like.
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Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.
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blizzardboy
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posted January 10, 2016 02:36 PM |
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Going to the gym to be trim/muscular makes a person more attractive for 95% of people, within reason. As you become more and more souped up, less and less women will be attracted to it. Women also look good fit although as they become more muscular it starts to lose its appeal for most men.
Beauty literally is in the eye of the beholder and perceptions play an enormous role in what we find attractive. Just look at some of the features that were/are attractive in tribal societies. Stunted feet. Elongated necks. Long ears .Gargantuan nose pieces. You psychologically train yourself to like or dislike it, without knowing it. What would be considered "chubby" today would have been an ideal woman in 1700s, 1600s, etc, Europe, and you can see that reflected in the great Renaissance paintings.
"Plastic" refers to skin that is almost completely the same tone, often times because of make-up in a picture. It's a quality that starts to make a woman less attractive and one in which I agree with. She starts to lose her organic, rugged feminine beauty and seem more like a doll. A glaringly large mole in the wrong spot can be unattractive, but a mole on a cheek or chin can also be cute and add character.
Alterations that change appearance ultimately have little value in actually increasing her beauty because it simply changes our expectation/perceptions. If the entire world has size D breasts, you can 100% guarantee that fetishes towards small breasted women will erupt. Pretty much the only feature that almost everybody would agree makes people more attractive is a symmetrical face. Skin, especially the face, with more red or yellow pigment is also more more attractive compared to skin with more blue pigment. It makes them more vibrant & healthy in appearance.
Interracial will also grow as a trend because members of different races (usually) are more "fun" than members of the same. I'm inescapably more pulled towards the Native & Filipino (and to a lesser extent Hispanic) women in my area than white chicks. Can't help myself. And, I notice, that they like me (there's not a lot of Caucasians where I'm at, especially blonde ones).
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Drakon-Deus 
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Qapla'
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posted January 10, 2016 03:52 PM |
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The only times I've heard about a person that was "natural" was related to hair color (not dyed) or the face (as in, no make-up or surgery), or no breast modifications, etc.
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 10, 2016 04:11 PM |
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Edited by artu at 16:29, 10 Jan 2016.
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blizz said:
Beauty literally is in the eye of the beholder and perceptions play an enormous role in what we find attractive. Just look at some of the features that were/are attractive in tribal societies. Stunted feet. Elongated necks. Long ears .Gargantuan nose pieces. You psychologically train yourself to like or dislike it, without knowing it. What would be considered "chubby" today would have been an ideal woman in 1700s, 1600s, etc, Europe, and you can see that reflected in the great Renaissance paintings.
That is a very valid point, of course. My comment was limited to modern societies in which "natural" is something people miss. In tribal or feudal societies, it is a very common phenomenon to take a distinctive feature of a gender such as smaller feet (Chinese) or thinner neck (some African tribes) and vulgarize it.
White skin was a feature of aristocrats in 18th century Europe so people powdered their faces till they looked like a corpse. And in 20th Century, it became a trend in upper middle-class to go to a tropical beach for an ideal vacation, so, getting a tan got popular. Overweight and obesity was not a problem in medieval times, inadequate nutrition was, so chubby (wealthy) was sexy and skinny (poor) was a turn off. What is considered beautiful has a lot to do with social trends.
In feudal societies, you blatantly show off. If you're rich, you cover yourself in jewelry, when you put on make up, you almost paint your face like a canvas, if you have power, you order things without saying please and put heads on a stake. It's very common, even in today's world all over, that women from rural areas have a habit of using excessive make-up and it's considered tasteless and vulgar in urban zones.
Let me frame it like this: The more "sophisticated" perception of beauty in contemporary times, is something that doesn't poke the eye and something that is expected to appear natural.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Zenofex
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posted January 10, 2016 06:04 PM |
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William said:
That is most definitely natural and is a good thing as it's healthy but paying for surgery and so on is not and is trying to be something you're not. Unless that post by yours, Zenofex, wasn't directed at me then disregard this post.
That was mostly directed at Doomforge's:
Quote:
while the "fake" one spent so much time, money and effort in the gym, beauty sallons and stuff...
Naturally beautiful people also quite often work to improve their bodies or at least keep them from becoming bloated meatbags. They just spend less efforts because they have better base. Yes, some people are just born genetic jackpot winners, some have to spend time and efforts to achieve similar results. The latter are no less "natural" than the former by any means, usually even more attractive (at least to me) because of the extra invested dedication.
The only part of the body that can't be improved via training is the face... and here it becomes tricky. The face is by far the greatest personality attribute of any person, it makes him or her unique to identify, memorize, associate with and so on. Changing the face acts to a significant degree like changing the person for the others. While even minor changes will probably be noticed by everyone, they won't have such an impact as the big ones. But then a naturally beautiful face with some small flaws don't need any changes еxcept when the owner is obsessively foppish. Face surgeries will always look artificial because of that (major changes are blatantly obvious), even if they actually achieve their desired goal - make you more attractive to the others.
Quote:
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder
As much as this is true, it's also true that there is an almost statistical collection of features that make a woman attractive to the vast majority of the men and a man attractive to the vast majority of the women, at least in their own geographical areal. That's the hard-coded animal thing which has nothing to do with the more profound human relationships. Someone not incredibly attractive can become more beautiful to you after you get to know him/her even he/she doesn't change one bit (and sometimes because of that) but if you have 5 seconds to choose, say, between 3 women you see for the first time, you're very likely to pick the "statistically" most attractive one.
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted January 10, 2016 08:05 PM |
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Edited by Kayna at 20:05, 10 Jan 2016.
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The human eye spots unnatural things rather quickly. Movies filmed on blue screen gets criticized as well. Same thing.
Plastic surgery should only be done on people that really are ugly. Already nice enough looking people should abstain. Already pretty people looking for some surgery should only do light, surface stuff like whitening of teeth, removal of birth stains, stuff like that. The moment you stuff snow underneath your skin, yuk! Fake tits are a constant distraction for the human eye, which is only used to natural things. Fake lips even more, oh my god! The worse of them all. I prefer a girl without tits than one with fake tits.
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friendofgunnar
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posted January 10, 2016 10:34 PM |
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Prolly 80% of the time when people do plastic surgury they're taking something that's not bad and trying to improve on it. The result is almost always something that looks fake and thus becomes a distraction.
I was thinking about this yesterday, Denise Richards used to be so pretty. Then she got puffy lips and now she's not. I'd totally tell her that to her face.
Edit:
lol, just realized I said the exact same thing Kayna did.
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blizzardboy
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posted January 10, 2016 10:41 PM |
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I think celebrities tend to focus on more immature perceptions of beauty. I.E. me make my boobs big, me make my lips puffy, me make my ass a balloon. Artu used the best word, "vulgarize". The emphasis on disproportionately large butts and boobs is just the modern equivalent of how people used to powder their skin to look pale. They're going for the cartoon look, which worked well on me when I was younger but I'll be 30 in a few months and I've noticed my tastes have shifted somewhat with it as well. Not that I dislike large breasts, but I'd don't necessarily dislike smaller beasts either... they're cute. It really just depends on the overall figure and appearance of the woman and not an individual organ. I guess you could say I'm more versatile than I used to be and not quite as much of a... well... douchebag.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Drakon-Deus
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Qapla'
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posted January 10, 2016 10:51 PM |
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Beauty is subjective. That doesn't mean that "everyone is beautiful in his own way" to me, no, but it means that what is beautiful to one person may be ugly or average to another, and the opposite.
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JollyJoker
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posted January 10, 2016 11:14 PM |
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Suppose you could get a chip implanted that would give you more intelligence, a biochip boosting your brain power.
What's the problem with people pimping up their BODY? Tattoos, peircing, shaving, artificial boobs, a bigger dick - is there a difference between that and popping viagra? -... we are humans, and that means we do not accept the way nature is and adjust it, and we've done this from the beginning of time; think about beauty ideals and how people have suffered to be viewed as beautiful, willingly or not.
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Tsar-Ivor
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posted January 10, 2016 11:42 PM |
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Quote:
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Exactly this Bill, and you even identified the main beholder as being yourself (you said that 'you' are comfortable with who you are even tho you don't think you're that good looking). It's never been about stunning other people no matter what they say (even the person adjusting themselves for others does it on their own perception/interpretation of what people think, thus the end judge remains themselves). It's always been about about looking and feeling good for yourself, that feeling you get of this is me when you look in the mirror.
Personally, my instant disposition toward people that had plastic surgery is that I think lesser of them (that is immediately that I find out or notice), most of that is just the propaganda crap that accumilated over the years, if I want to be with someone (friend, partner or just someone I'm talking with) them being 'plastic' (had work done) or wearing make-up might actually help me understand the way they see themselves.
I berated my best buddy when he was constantly bugging his gf about her makeup, that he prefers her natural, I told him that's great yo, but she doesn't, and there's nothing wrong with that, become who you want to be. At the time I was just trying to troll him, playing the devil's advocate (I was inclined to agree with him even, everyone should be happy with the mug they got, not anymore tho). But by playing a fake role and stance I actually stumbled onto what I would come to believe, so strange, I pretend and act but in doing so stumble onto the truth.
I often thought that me playing a devil's advocate or publicly claiming that I hold to controvertial stances was in place of having any opinions myself, but in reality it was an opening process for me. I am now learning at Uni that there's no such thing as controvertial, it's made up, it's what we've been spoon fed all of our lives, there's no one way to live correctly, there is no one correct way to think. And to remain on topic, there's no one good way to treat yourself. As long as you're happy do as you please.
I'm starting to give girls a chance now, that I would've never otherwise, and seriously once you throw away your old mentality you realize your old perceptions on beauty were just a hazy fog vision that blurred out almost everyone save the ones that had stellar feautures (for me at least, and it was such a subtle change with huge impact).
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blizzardboy
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posted January 11, 2016 02:43 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Suppose you could get a chip implanted that would give you more intelligence, a biochip boosting your brain power.
What's the problem with people pimping up their BODY? Tattoos, peircing, shaving, artificial boobs, a bigger dick - is there a difference between that and popping viagra? -... we are humans, and that means we do not accept the way nature is and adjust it, and we've done this from the beginning of time; think about beauty ideals and how people have suffered to be viewed as beautiful, willingly or not.
I don't think it's about looking at something that is concretely off-the-table, but rather if a certain societal trend is really beneficial towards human contentment or not. A nose job isn't somehow "wrong", but is a culture of cashing checks on nose jobs a good thing or not.
A universal means of boosting human intelligence, autoimmunity, etc. extends & expands life.
I think the question is whether or not, when self-esteem and self-worth is a pandemic problem, especially among women, if plastic surgery is useful towards this end or if it doesn't exacerbate it in a culture where you run into things like depression, eating disorders, self-debasement, etc. Case in point: South Korea is the plastic surgery capitol of the world, both because of its own people and because of people coming in from China, and you actually have new words being invented, i.e. "monster") because of how certain work is vulgarizing the human body into real life anime princesses. Depression there is not improving, and it's commonplace for women to get ditched from a job position or stuck in a career rut because they don't fit the "standards" of the boss, so they get plastic surgery, which fuels more discriminating standards, which fuels more plastic surgery. This isn't theorycrafting. This is real life. Can you see how this produces a cycle? This applies to both genders but I think - by far - this subject hits more a nerve with women's value & mental health.
Autoimmunity and intelligence are objective qualities. Beauty is subjective, which means that perceptions and, more importantly, expectations shift based on whatever fetish a person might have at a given time. A nose is made slightly thinner, but then the chin is too high or too low. The chin is "fixed", but then the ears are too large. Then, fast forward one generation, and large ears are sexy all of the sudden and everybody's popping morning wood over ear dreams. As the body consumes a higher sodium/fat diet, you don't actually take pleasure in the more decedent diet because the taste becomes regularized and you demand a fattier diet.
Breasts implants aren't as much a thing in S Korea (although hazardous leg extensions are), but large breasts a more clear-cut example of killing your back in order to make a man happy. My girlfriend has small breasts, and I can honestly say, I want them to stay that way, and I want her to know that I want them can stay that way, because it makes her feel good, which makes me feel good.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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JollyJoker
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posted January 11, 2016 03:49 PM |
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Blizzardboy, I appreciate your concern, but I consider this a "natural selection" problem - whether you chose to poison yourself with (too many or the wrong) drugs, whether you get a couple of tattoos and in infection via an unclean needle, whether you kill or - worse - cripple yourself in a street race where you crash, there are lots of ways to ruin your life.
Beauty surgery is just another one.
Frankly, I couldn't care less, whether the Asian economy favors modeled or sculpted humans instead of natural ones - my point was that altering "natural" traits is completely and entirely human, and the only problem I can see here is the fact that the procedures for it are still pretty clumsy.
This will change in course of the next generations.
I mean, look around, it's unavoidable. 50 years ago the white people were trying to get a tan (looks better!) by roasting themselves in the sun - until someone told them that you get skin cancer from it. Then came tan studios, and I seem to remember that those first UV machines were quite dangerous. Now there are tan creams and whatnot - things will develop.
And peer pressure - wasn't that always there, and, again, giving in on it a matter of natural selection?
That said, do you think that being hooked on smartphones and social networks is a good thing?
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blizzardboy
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posted January 11, 2016 05:12 PM |
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I'm not "opposed" to plastic surgery. There is a nebulous line between making legit corrections and creating a culture with obsessive compulsion & mental health problems. (I mean, if I had some obscene hook nose I'd probably go under the knife). Altering otherwise healthy features can and does simply exacerbate the problems some people face in pop culture, especially women, where they struggle and suffer to fit into a certain mold of how they are allegedly meant to look. I'll just say this much: an emotionally mature & happy people isn't going to be produced via a scaple.
No, I don't think being hooked on gadgets is a good thing. It takes on the form an addiction and impairs social skills.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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JollyJoker
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posted January 11, 2016 06:08 PM |
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These kinds of dangers have never kept anyone - or even a society as a whole - to pursue these things.
Is artificial worse than natural?
Realistically spoken, I think, it's only a matter of the quality of the job. Plastic surgery seems excessive in many cases, but on the other hand it just depends on how an individual feels and what options are there to change things (and how safe and effective they are).
There is this old saying, beauty has to suffer, and considering how much totally useless and senseless involuntary suffering there is, a little bit of voluntary suffering doesn't seem to be that much of a big deal.
If someone wants to change their looks - let them. It involves risks, sure, but your life will end anyway, risks or not.
As I said, I don't believe in big differences between artifical as in surgery and artificial as in creams and lotions and pills.
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