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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: Forge mentality
Thread: Forge mentality This thread is 9 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 · NEXT»
Xfing
Xfing


Hired Hero
posted June 19, 2017 08:55 PM

Forge mentality

I'm a huge fan of the M&M science fantasy universe, so understandably I'm very attracted to the notion of the Forge, and I eagerly read any and all news on projects aiming to recreate this town.

But based on all projects I've seen so far, I've noticed that none of the creators ever went with NWC's concept of superpowered units with high cost and low population. The units were always anywhere from up there with the best of the tier to downright weak. I mean, at least half of the appeal of Forge would be for the units to be OP, as this town was never intended for competitive play anyway, it was just supposed to be in the campaign as an obstacle for the player to overcome. I do realize that balancing the town will be necessary if it ever gets made (in HotA for example), but why not try going this particular route that NWC intended? The town is already so different from all the others, that adding yet another difference won't hurt that much. Also, I think balancing around smaller unit populations is very much possible.

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Macron1
Macron1


Supreme Hero
posted June 19, 2017 09:11 PM

Xfing said:
I'm a huge fan of the M&M science fantasy universe, so understandably I'm very attracted to the notion of the Forge, and I eagerly read any and all news on projects aiming to recreate this town.

But based on all projects I've seen so far, I've noticed that none of the creators ever went with NWC's concept of superpowered units with high cost and low population. The units were always anywhere from up there with the best of the tier to downright weak. I mean, at least half of the appeal of Forge would be for the units to be OP, as this town was never intended for competitive play anyway, it was just supposed to be in the campaign as an obstacle for the player to overcome. I do realize that balancing the town will be necessary if it ever gets made (in HotA for example), but why not try going this particular route that NWC intended? The town is already so different from all the others, that adding yet another difference won't hurt that much. Also, I think balancing around smaller unit populations is very much possible.


You can take one of Forges for VCMI and balance it to fit this role.

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fred79
fred79


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
Crotch Connoisseur
posted June 19, 2017 09:39 PM

Xfing said:
But based on all projects I've seen so far, I've noticed that none of the creators ever went with NWC's concept of superpowered units with high cost and low population.


are these op enough?

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Xfing
Xfing


Hired Hero
posted June 19, 2017 09:45 PM

fred79 said:
Xfing said:
But based on all projects I've seen so far, I've noticed that none of the creators ever went with NWC's concept of superpowered units with high cost and low population.


are these op enough?


Holy cow! Yeah, this is sort of the balance I was thinking about. If compensated by low weekly growth, this could fly.

Except for the Dreadnought of course, it's more like a T8 unit than a T7 upgrade

That said, I could live with the Juggernaut's stats being as they are, but for the Dreadnought. Stronger than Archangels alright. I also love the crap outta the model for the Jug/Dreadnought, these are just beautiful!

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fred79
fred79


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
Crotch Connoisseur
posted June 19, 2017 09:46 PM

i didn't make them; an awesome artist by the name of axolotl did. i DID, however, make the sounds for them.

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salubri
salubri


Adventuring Hero
posted June 19, 2017 11:49 PM
Edited by salubri at 23:54, 19 Jun 2017.

Strong forge was my dream too. This was were more technology of the Ancients was introduced. Sadly none of the teams tried to make it like it was suppost to be. You can make it look more autentic by combining creatures from forge and factory factions. Somewhere it was stated that even low lv creatures were as strong as angels so i used azure, crystal, rust, faerie dragon stats on 7-4lv creatures and titans, nagas, dendroids stats on 1-3lv creatures. All have the the same prices as creatures that were used for stats but only lv 7 uses gold and crystals for purchase. Others have increased gold cost instead of other resource cost. Non upgraded version has stats and cost halved. All growth is 1 per week but i dont know how to reduce growth when you build castle and grail. I used factory faction cause it looks more like original forge. Still there is a lot of work to do. Its just a demo verion. I still hope that those who know how to create mods can make forge autentic cause i dont know how to edit a lot of things. People had the forge faction files. Why did you edit the town? Zombies could use some editing to look more like original ones from screenshots. Goblins look ok but in screenshots upgraded version has a blaster rifle so it needs editing (also i need to replace zombies and goblins cause goblins are lv 1). Pyros, minotaurs are great. Ogres need some editing with rocket launchers like in screenshots. Upgraded naga needs to have 6 hands. Juggernaut seems ok cause its suppost to be fully mechanical but its a flying unit so i still need to replace naga building with juggernaut cause in factory faction it is mixed up.

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fred79
fred79


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
Crotch Connoisseur
posted June 20, 2017 12:29 AM

salubri said:
Why did you edit the town? Zombies could use some editing to look more like original ones from screenshots.


nwc had a lot of older versions of stuff that got refined until the final release was different from what they originally worked with. it's called improving, and everyone who creates stuff does it. there's no reason to be satisfied releasing substandard work that represents your ideas. you should want the best version of your work displayed for others. for some people, that means changing the lineup. for others, that means refining what's already there. "original" doesn't automatically mean "best".

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Xfing
Xfing


Hired Hero
posted June 20, 2017 02:04 AM

Salubri, your forge is complete overkill - there's no way this version of the town would be competitive.

My proposals regarding the balance of the units. I'll be using NWC's lineup here and I won't take into account potential horde buildings for any level (no idea what they should be anyway, if any):

Grunt/Foot Soldier

Atk: 4/5
Def: 4/5
Dmg: 1-3/2-4
Shots: 24/32
Health: 6/7
Speed: 5/7
Melee penalty: Yes
Growth: 12/17/22
Price: 75/95

Cyber Dead/Cyber Zombie

Atk: 6/7
Def: 5/7
Dmg: 3-4/3-5
Health: 18/22
Speed: 4/5
Growth: 7/10/14
Price: 150/175
Special: Cyber Dead have 20% chance of "Open wounds" - affected unit bleeds out for 4 turns, losing 10% of their maximum health each turn. Cyber Zombies have 40% chance of inflicting this, along with the normal Zombies' "Disease" debuff, at the regular 20% chance.

Pyro/Pyromaniac

Atk: 8/10
Def: 7/7
Dmg: 2-7/4-7
Health: 25/30
Speed: 6/7
Growth: 6/8/11
Price: 230/260
Special: Can attack 2 adjacent creatures akin to the Dragons' breath attack

Stinger/Bruiser

Atk: 14/15
Def: 7/9
Dmg: 6-12/8-12
Shots: 12/24
Health: 50/60
Speed: 4/5
Melee penalty: Yes
Growth: 4/5/7
Price: 400/550
Special: Can attack castle walls, similar to Cyclopes (at basic and advanced Ballistics skill respectively). Bruisers have no range or obstacle penalty like Sharpshooters (their missiles are homing)

Jump Trooper/Jump Soldier

Atk: 15/17
Def: 14/16
Dmg: 14-22/16-22
Health: 55/60
Speed: 9/13
Growth: 3/4/5
Price: 650/800
Special: Blocks counters

Tank/Heavy Tank

Atk: 17/20
Def: 16/16
Dmg: 20-30/25-35
Health: 120/125
Speed: 8/10
Growth: 2/2/3
Price: 1400/1800
Special: Attacks all adjacent units like the Hydra and Psychic/Magic Elemental (has four-six uzis, so it stands to reason).

Juggernaut/Dreadnought

Atk: 25/35
Def: 25/35
Dmg: 50-55/50-55
Health: 200/350
Speed: 6/9
Growth: 1/1/1
Price: 3500, +1 mercury, +1 sulfur, +1 crystals/6000, +2 mercury, +1 sulfur, +1 crystals
Special: Frightening (like the Azure Dragon)

What do you think about such a setup? Every unit is top-notch within its tier, beating out all competition in at least one aspect. The town in this form would be wickedly overpowered (I can see it even now), but the effectiveness of the army would be dampened by its ungodly costs and low growth. I'd be happy to see the Forge in such a form. What do you think? What about the special abilities of the units?

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Baronus
Baronus


Supreme Hero
posted June 20, 2017 08:04 AM

Changing stats is easy. In Era in VCMI. Personally I think if you want forge you must redesign all game because this city completly dont fit and breaking game design. But in VCMI its possible because we have some technical cities. You can play them the same time.

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salubri
salubri


Adventuring Hero
posted June 20, 2017 03:34 PM

Xfing said:
Salubri, your forge is complete overkill - there's no way this version of the town would be competitive.

My proposals regarding the balance of the units. I'll be using NWC's lineup here and I won't take into account potential horde buildings for any level (no idea what they should be anyway, if any):

Grunt/Foot Soldier

Atk: 4/5
Def: 4/5
Dmg: 1-3/2-4
Shots: 24/32
Health: 6/7
Speed: 5/7
Melee penalty: Yes
Growth: 12/17/22
Price: 75/95

Cyber Dead/Cyber Zombie

Atk: 6/7
Def: 5/7
Dmg: 3-4/3-5
Health: 18/22
Speed: 4/5
Growth: 7/10/14
Price: 150/175
Special: Cyber Dead have 20% chance of "Open wounds" - affected unit bleeds out for 4 turns, losing 10% of their maximum health each turn. Cyber Zombies have 40% chance of inflicting this, along with the normal Zombies' "Disease" debuff, at the regular 20% chance.

Pyro/Pyromaniac

Atk: 8/10
Def: 7/7
Dmg: 2-7/4-7
Health: 25/30
Speed: 6/7
Growth: 6/8/11
Price: 230/260
Special: Can attack 2 adjacent creatures akin to the Dragons' breath attack

Stinger/Bruiser

Atk: 14/15
Def: 7/9
Dmg: 6-12/8-12
Shots: 12/24
Health: 50/60
Speed: 4/5
Melee penalty: Yes
Growth: 4/5/7
Price: 400/550
Special: Can attack castle walls, similar to Cyclopes (at basic and advanced Ballistics skill respectively). Bruisers have no range or obstacle penalty like Sharpshooters (their missiles are homing)

Jump Trooper/Jump Soldier

Atk: 15/17
Def: 14/16
Dmg: 14-22/16-22
Health: 55/60
Speed: 9/13
Growth: 3/4/5
Price: 650/800
Special: Blocks counters

Tank/Heavy Tank

Atk: 17/20
Def: 16/16
Dmg: 20-30/25-35
Health: 120/125
Speed: 8/10
Growth: 2/2/3
Price: 1400/1800
Special: Attacks all adjacent units like the Hydra and Psychic/Magic Elemental (has four-six uzis, so it stands to reason).

Juggernaut/Dreadnought

Atk: 25/35
Def: 25/35
Dmg: 50-55/50-55
Health: 200/350
Speed: 6/9
Growth: 1/1/1
Price: 3500, +1 mercury, +1 sulfur, +1 crystals/6000, +2 mercury, +1 sulfur, +1 crystals
Special: Frightening (like the Azure Dragon)

What do you think about such a setup? Every unit is top-notch within its tier, beating out all competition in at least one aspect. The town in this form would be wickedly overpowered (I can see it even now), but the effectiveness of the army would be dampened by its ungodly costs and low growth. I'd be happy to see the Forge in such a form. What do you think? What about the special abilities of the units?


Grunt/Foot Soldier no obstacle penalty/no obstacle penalty, shoot twice (cause of blasters and blaster rifles)
Cyber Dead/Cyber Zombie remove disease cause they are now more mechanical. Maybe add a little magic dmg resist (golem type) like 10-20%
Pyro/Pyromaniac no retaliation for upgraded version.
Stinger/Bruiser it's ok but no wall dmg. Instead of that AOE atack like death cloud. (missle explosion)
Jump Trooper/Jump Soldier replace abilities with harpie abilities. Strike and return/ strike and return, no retaliation.
Tank/Heavy Tank sounds ok but i want to nerf it to cerberus type atack and add no retaliation to upgraded version like upgraded nagas have. (i like that you didnt remove nagas ranged weapons like in concept art. she can have them and still be hand to hand fighter)
Juggernaut/Dreadnought mechanical (so no morale or luck, certain spells have no effect) golem type (gold and diamond) magic dmg resist. Immune to slow.

I dont mind replacing some of the buildings in forge like people in DF2 did but they are trying to add buildings that were in official concept art so it still is autentic. I mean look at this http://imgur.com/Mg2Y7Bs this is even better than 3do was planing i think. Do they still work on that? Cause posts in that section of forum are rare.

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fred79
fred79


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
Crotch Connoisseur
posted June 20, 2017 04:42 PM
Edited by fred79 at 16:49, 20 Jun 2017.

thanks. that screenshot is from my forge project. i make/modify/add map objects, so forge map objects will be included(as what you see in the screen). the release is years off, though. although, i may finish the forge project before i complete my lovecraft faction, since most of the work is already done.

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Galaad
Galaad


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Forge activist
posted June 20, 2017 05:32 PM

fred79 said:
i may finish the forge project


Yes please
____________
"Corribus is a teddy bear" - Blizzardboy

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fred79
fred79


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
Crotch Connoisseur
posted June 20, 2017 06:07 PM

i only need to know 3d to remake the forge castle, for the townscreen. it's the only thing still flawed(but don't quote me on that, as it's been awhile). i cannot change the lighting of the current one without screwing the whole def. any changes i make in photoshop would have to exactly match each of the 3 defs for the townscreen castle; which would be impossibly difficult and tedious to complete without the help of 3d.

after that issue is fixed, i'd have to further tinker with the positioning tool that i got from oxfea, that for some reason i cannot get to work.

after that, i can continue making the remaining progress needed, to finish the project for release(artifact scripting, object replacing, puzzle map, completing forge map objects; of which i have many yet to do/replace).

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OxFEA
OxFEA


Promising
Famous Hero
feanor on DF2.ru
posted June 20, 2017 10:06 PM

Xfing said:

But based on all projects I've seen so far, I've noticed that none of the creators ever went with NWC's concept of superpowered units with high cost and low population. The units were always anywhere from up there with the best of the tier to downright weak. I mean, at least half of the appeal of Forge would be for the units to be OP, as this town was never intended for competitive play anyway, it was just supposed to be in the campaign as an obstacle for the player to overcome.


As a "yet-another-man-with-Forge-project", I can answer.
It's just not interesting.
OK, I'll waste hundreds of hours for creating a town..for what? For town that is supposed to be "campaign-only" or "legal ingame cheat"? No, it's not an option.

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fred79
fred79


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
Crotch Connoisseur
posted June 20, 2017 11:22 PM

yeah, not for me, either. making/having a town that you can't use except for campaigns is a waste of resources(not to mention, a town slot), imo. it'd be that much more fun trying to beat them in any solo map. or, playing as forge, and having an epic opposition to kick off heroeswar3.

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Baronus
Baronus


Supreme Hero
posted June 21, 2017 08:53 AM

One overpower city was in HI and HII and it was mistake. The best option is ban all medieval cities and run only technical mods for VCMI. Variuos forges, Covenant and other this type. It will be with sense. One fit to another.

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avatar
avatar


Famous Hero
posted June 21, 2017 09:06 AM

Still, MDT's Forge has most enjoyable playtime!
____________

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Galaad
Galaad


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Forge activist
posted June 21, 2017 11:50 AM

@fred: Ok, I come back in 3 years.

@avatar: Hear, hear!
____________
"Corribus is a teddy bear" - Blizzardboy

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salubri
salubri


Adventuring Hero
posted June 21, 2017 12:29 PM

Baronus said:
One overpower city was in HI and HII and it was mistake. The best option is ban all medieval cities and run only technical mods for VCMI. Variuos forges, Covenant and other this type. It will be with sense. One fit to another.


But now you can edit cities for balance. You couldnt do that in H1 or H2. High price, low growth, strong units. Covenant? Explain to me how that one fits into might and magic universe? Forge is a town that came when might and magic 7 ended when siding with evil. If you want towns that make sence then you need to take a look at might and magic. Cove is a town that pirates of Regna own. Abyss could be a town that Tritons from MM8 own. Asylum could be converted to a town owned by the dark elves of Jadamane.

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Baronus
Baronus


Supreme Hero
posted June 21, 2017 02:14 PM

If you edit other cities forge will not be strong :-) Where is sense?
Covenant is techno city like forge and easy can be add with fited story. But forge and peasant? How looks fight tridents contra tanks? And I think about sense like this. Not about story. Forge faction was removed because player protested, dont fit to knights, peasants, pikemans etc.

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