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Heroes Community > Tavern of the Rising Sun > Thread: what would you do if you were god?
Thread: what would you do if you were god? This thread is 5 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT»
fred79
fred79


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
boob in a black box
posted February 12, 2018 03:22 PM
Edited by fred79 at 15:51, 12 Feb 2018.

Neraus said:
After you've done everything what's left to do?


create new things to do? the only limit is literally your imagination. besides, i've been modding for 6 years, and i'm still doing it. when i get bored with it, i watch a movie. if i get bored watching movies, i play video games. if i get bored playing video games, i masturbate or have sex. if i get bored with masturbating or having sex, i can do anything under the sun, that i can afford. and what's more, i can SHARE these experiences with others. the only problem is your limited imagination. you seem to want to hole yourself up, instead of letting your mind go. you are effectively imprisoning yourself.

Neraus said:
The only imagination that is truly boundless is the imagination of an insane person, however, since you limit everything to anything that couldn't bring harm to this blissful world no one could truly allow their most insane ideas to come to fruition, thus limiting their imagination and thus constricting them to the realm of what is rational and good.


but i already covered ill-willed people. they get another planet where they can enjoy their suffering, along with their ego, remember?

Neraus said:
And indeed, by pampering all humans by removing evil and removing their ego you are effectively lobotomizing every human, for that matter, without an ego why have any desire or drive at all? Indeed in all honesty I find this "paradise" as the fantasy of an horny teenager.


so my existence is primarily about sex? where did i say that? and just how is removing the human ego lobotomizing a human?

Neraus said:
Can God create a boulder so heavy he can't lift it?

I think this paradox can be perfectly applied in this situation.


yes, he could. but he could also lift/move/remove the boulder at will, if he so wished. what's the problem?



edit: 6 years. i've been modding for 6 years.

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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted February 12, 2018 03:36 PM

Neraus said:
After you've done everything what's left to do?

In the old thread about trading physicality for immortality we talked [...]

I actually had a feeling we were heading down this path.

Neraus said:

Can God create a boulder so heavy he can't lift it?

I think this paradox can be perfectly applied in this situation.


This argument came up a lot back in the days when I wrote a lot about immortality and stuff here at HC, so I also gave it some thought in this context last night.

In my opinion it doesn't make any sense to apply logic to the limits of omnipotence since Fred never said the omnipotence was limited by logic.

I mean of course one can decide not to accept that such omnipotence can exist, but that is not what the OP is about, it is more about what will you do if you have it.

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fred79
fred79


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
boob in a black box
posted February 12, 2018 03:38 PM

exactly. thanks, ohfor.

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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


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Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted February 12, 2018 03:43 PM

fred79 said:

yes, he could. but he could also lift/move/remove the boulder at will, if he so wished. what's the problem?


I remember I gave Elodin the more or less exact same answer somewhere between 5-10 years ago, nothing productive came out of it.

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fred79
fred79


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
boob in a black box
posted February 12, 2018 03:46 PM

not everyone can understand that way of thinking. can't really knock 'em for it. i don't understand why/how many people think like they do, myself.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted February 12, 2018 03:50 PM

fred79 said:
do you think someone who has lost children, been tortured, been raped, or suffered horribly otherwise, would agree with your view that suffering is required to live a good life? how about someone who lost their ability to walk/see/hear/etc? tell me, do you feel like you've learned something or grew as a person when you stub your toe?


I've already stated a condition to those adversities:

Quote:
What matters, however, is the size of those challenges and hurdles.


It's in one of my previous replies here. Challenges too great or hurdles too high are ultimately destructive, whether it's for the psyche or physical. Challenges too small or hurdles too low lead to death of creativity in the long run.

What matters is a good, healthy size and height.

In that sense, I do agree with you wholeheartedly that there's currently suffering happening in the world that people could do without, regardless of whether it's a matter of circumstance (an innocent victim caught in a warzone, for instance) or downright malice against ones' person (such as a street thug robbing you blind). The gist I get from your OP, however, is that you would suggest to remove everything that could potentially be harmful, even if only in the slightest of ways.
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fred79
fred79


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
boob in a black box
posted February 12, 2018 04:00 PM

Maurice said:
Challenges too small or hurdles too low lead to death of creativity in the long run.


what evidence do you have that proves this? are you saying someone who paints has to suffer in order to paint a picture? or make music? or anything else that doesn't require suffering to create? i'm really having problems understanding your pov, man. you seem to think that without suffering, one can not shine.

hell, jesus was a great person(or so the bible says) before he was crucified, man(or mlk jr before he was shot, etc). my point is, jesus didn't need to be crucified. a scant lot of good THAT did anyone. or would you argue that jesus being crucified(regarding the violence of religious crusades and everything else) or mlk jr being shot was a needed thing?

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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted February 12, 2018 04:02 PM

Ignorance is bliss.
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fred79
fred79


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
boob in a black box
posted February 12, 2018 04:08 PM

Stevie said:
Ignorance is bliss.


that entirely depends on what one's ignorant of.

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Neraus
Neraus


Supreme Hero
Pizza Nazi
posted February 12, 2018 04:23 PM
Edited by Neraus at 16:23, 12 Feb 2018.

Let's start the quote war, hooray!

fred79 said:
Neraus said:
After you've done everything what's left to do?


create new things to do? the only limit is literally your imagination. besides, i've been modding for 4 years, and i'm still doing it. when i get bored with it, i watch a movie. if i get bored watching movies, i play video games. if i get bored playing video games, i masturbate or have sex. if i get bored with masturbating or having sex, i can do anything under the sun, that i can afford. and what's more, i can SHARE these experiences with others. the only problem is your limited imagination. you seem to want to hole yourself up, instead of letting your mind go. you are effectively imprisoning yourself.


Hence why I followed up with:

Neraus said:
The only imagination that is truly boundless is the imagination of an insane person, however, since you limit everything to anything that couldn't bring harm to this blissful world no one could truly allow their most insane ideas to come to fruition, thus limiting their imagination and thus constricting them to the realm of what is rational and good.


Sorry for bringing up another discussion, but in that other thread I basically said that I would trade physicality for an immortal mind, even if in the end I would eventually reach a point of saturation in which boredom would bring about insanity. Keywords here are immortality and boredom, in a limited timeframe you couldn't count all the things you imagine, and you can find anything to do to alleviate boredom (although, let's be honest, there are days in which you can't find anything to do).
Problem is, when you start to go on with time, maybe you can find something different to keep you occupied in a hundred years, maybe a thousand or an hundred thousand. But here we're talking about infinite time. You don't simply get bored by sameness but also by similarity. I'm simply saying, you will eventually run out of "safe" things to think, and in your universe "safe" things to materialize. What happens when one can only satiate their boredom by thinking "unsafe" things?

That's why I think there would be a limit to imagination in that world, at some point you just start thinking about dark and insane things.

fred79 said:
Neraus said:
And indeed, by pampering all humans by removing evil and removing their ego you are effectively lobotomizing every human, for that matter, without an ego why have any desire or drive at all? Indeed in all honesty I find this "paradise" as the fantasy of an horny teenager.


so my existence is primarily about sex? where did i say that? and just how is removing the human ego lobotomizing a human?



I was trying to be cute with harshness. I was more referring to the part of sex without consequences and pleasure upped tenfold, I get that was a way to say that you could live all of life's pleasures without any problems, but still, I got the habit of imagining a kid that just discovered the next great thing.

I know, I'm becoming that grumpy old guy.

Now, regarding the ego, it's a huge drive for humans, by comparing yourself with somebody else you decide what actions to take. Envy can be quite unproductive, but sometimes it drives you to be better than that person. Jealousy can be a shackle, but sometimes (or at least in what I experienced myself) it can bring you to show the best of yourself to keep what you want with you. In short, it's true that most of what you had listed in the ego category have negative connotations, but they can bring about good things when people strive to overcome them.

Indeed if what you separated from the chaff were truly good people they would overcome their egoistic desires to better themselves.
The problem is that there is no reason to better yourself if you don't have a meter to compare, nor any problems with you in the first place. That may avoid the suffering of feeling inadequate, or remove the seduction of subduing someone else, but it stunts someone's growth as a person.
Or that's at least how I see it due to the way I grew up.

I could be coy and just say that you wouldn't have any desires at all once you remove the ego, but I know that's not what you meant.

fred79 said:
Neraus said:
Can God create a boulder so heavy he can't lift it?

I think this paradox can be perfectly applied in this situation.


yes, he could. but he could also lift/move/remove the boulder at will, if he so wished. what's the problem?


God can, can your human? Is your human also omnipotent or is it still limited even in its powers of manifestation?

If you want my opinion I believe too that this paradox when applied to an omnipotent entity doesn't have sense, but I was applying it to your human, or did I miss something about the capabilities of your human?

Also, it's kind of gold that you thought that I took that thing seriously, do you not know me?

EDIT:: Finally nailed the layout!
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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted February 12, 2018 04:30 PM
Edited by Maurice at 16:41, 12 Feb 2018.

fred79 said:
you seem to think that without suffering, one can not shine.


I already stated it in my initial post in this topic: survival of the fittest. The struggle to survive is the key critical component for all species to continue their existence, in a world that has limited resources and ever changing conditions.

With that struggle being essential and at the very core of existence, you cannot deny that it is part of every living being - even if the ways it is expressed isn't so obvious, given how complex sociological interactions have become for us humans. Nature's answer to coming up top in that struggle is creativity. It could be as basic as building a simple nest by a bird, or as complex as making a delicate painting, with multiple layers of meaning in its composition, by a master painter.

Creativity as an expression of that very fundamental struggle to survive will die if the struggle dies. Without that struggle, your mind will wither and die, it's simple.

Edit: as an aside, the painting example you give is flawed at its core. Anybody can throw paint at a canvas, but it takes skill, talent and years of training to produce a real masterpiece, after hundreds, if not thousands, of mediocre and bad paintings. That's a struggle in its own right. Same as the musician who needs years of practice to master instruments, become a good singer, or write captivating lyrics.
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fred79
fred79


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
boob in a black box
posted February 12, 2018 05:10 PM

@ neraus: i just realized why we might have a miscommunication. i never specified human death or old age in the op, because frankly i never thought about it.

give me some time, and i'll come up with a foolproof plan for that, too.


Maurice said:
I already stated it in my initial post in this topic: survival of the fittest. The struggle to survive is the key critical component for all species to continue their existence, in a world that has limited resources and ever changing conditions.

With that struggle being essential and at the very core of existence, you cannot deny that it is part of every living being - even if the ways it is expressed isn't so obvious, given how complex sociological interactions have become for us humans. Nature's answer to coming up top in that struggle is creativity. It could be as basic as building a simple nest by a bird, or as complex as making a delicate painting, with multiple layers of meaning in its composition, by a master painter.

Creativity as an expression of that very fundamental struggle to survive will die if the struggle dies. Without that struggle, your mind will wither and die, it's simple.

Edit: as an aside, the painting example you give is flawed at its core. Anybody can throw paint at a canvas, but it takes skill, talent and years of training to produce a real masterpiece, after hundreds, if not thousands, of mediocre and bad paintings. That's a struggle in its own right. Same as the musician who needs years of practice to master instruments, become a good singer, or write captivating lyrics.


all of this assumes the existence we currently live in, and not the perfect world i imagined in the op. how does the above have anything to do with the op?

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Neraus
Neraus


Supreme Hero
Pizza Nazi
posted February 12, 2018 05:33 PM

Yeah, I had assumed life would be eternal for the good folk, although reading it again I see you didn't mention anything of the sort.

Sorry, got too caught up with the part of any wish coming true that I didn't realize I had added a new factor by myself.
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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted February 12, 2018 05:42 PM
Edited by artu at 10:48, 13 Feb 2018.

You guys seem to be mixing up a lot of things into a very confused cocktail.

Argument: World without struggle would bore humans to death, so an utopia such as fred's would dysfunction, resulting in blunt unhappiness.

Fair enough but there are too many gaps in such a fantasy to begin with till we come to that. Such as the binary distinction of good and bad people, like there are evil men who wake up with nothing but greedy sinister plans and good people who are completely stripped of their ego. The truth is, everybody has a tendency to be both selfish and compassionate and life is about balancing these in an efficient way.

Argument: The simulation of "heaven" in Matrix dysfunctioning is the same thing.

No, it is not an extremely weak plot and they had to come up with some kind of rationalization because, if the Matrix was heaven, the movie wouldn't exist and become a blockbuster but the Matrix aims for docile cattle, not purposeful characters. It is a farm and people dont phsically die out of boredom. So had the Matrix been real, there would be much less "action" in it but rather cow like humans grinning all day. It is much simpler and much less risky to build such a model.

Argument: Since we need challenge and struggle, that is why God created this earth the way it is, which is in fact perfect for us.

We didnt have to be like this to begin with, humans are not some magnum opus. An omnipotent and omniscient creator (which are both very problematic concepts, btw) could have created a different creature who didnt need such contrast and why wouldn't it? Because free will is so precious? Better than eternal bliss? And we dont even have such a flawless free will to begin with, most of our decisions are heavily determined by our biochemistry, our social background, our subconscious... The type of creationist logic above is basically looking at water flooding in little rock holes and claiming the rock holes are created exactly for matching the shape of water. Needless to say, the situation is the exact opposite, we are this way because our brain, biochemistry, and tendencies shaped by them were molded by struggle in nature.

Argument (this is where religousity comes in play): But we cant know that since we are not the ones who are omniscient. The creator is beyond such logical surgery.

If something is beyond reason and logic, it is de facto completely unknown. It is not maybe this or maybe that, it is as meaningless as grplttccjinmhssns to us. You can not, on one hand, suggest this overwhelmingly anthropomorphic father/ruler figure with human sensitivities and intentions, yet, then switch to "metaphysical unknown beyond our measures" when his omnipotence conflicts with kindness or good will.



If you were omnipotent in space-time, humans wouldnt even be bacteria to you, they wouldnt even be as significant as the protons of bacterias, that's how vast the universe is. It's always so weird to see how people are the most egocentric when they talk about being humble in front of god. Gods are the very mirrors of your egos.

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fred79
fred79


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
boob in a black box
posted February 12, 2018 06:08 PM
Edited by fred79 at 18:16, 12 Feb 2018.

artu said:
there are too many gaps in such a fantasy to begin with till we come to that. Such as the binary distinction of good and bad people, like there are evil men who wake up with nothing but greedy sinister plans and good people who are completely stripped of their ego. The truth is, everybody has a tendency to be both selfish and compassionate and life is about balancing these in an efficient way.


dude, i made it abundantly clear in the op, that only human vermin are the "bad people" who get shipped to "bend over and take it like vermin should" planet. this obviously excludes people who are occasionally selfish, or who might have gotten into a fight with whoever, or who stuck their tongues out at their mommies behind their backs. i clearly specified VERMIN/HUMAN GARBAGE, not somebody who broke a couple petty morality code rules.

maybe i should have never used the word "bad"?

we all know what constitutes a decent person, and what constitutes vermin, is my point. subjectivity is moot, regarding this. i'm talking about definites that most people would agree on.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted February 12, 2018 06:25 PM

But "good" and "bad" are moral concepts, defined by the standards of the society in which you grow up. What is "good" in one society, might be considered "bad" in another and vice-versa. Take for instance personal freedom and how we express it: in the modern Western world, you can go to a bar and drink alcoholic beverages, while trying to seduce attractively looking members of your sex of choice. No one will think you're being a bad guy in the society you come from, but in a rigorous islamic country, you are the epitome of all that is unholy for such behaviour. In reverse, dressing up the women in your family till you can hardly see anything from them, not even the eyes, makes you a good, honorable man in strict islamic societies, whereas in the modern Western world, you are considered a suppressor of women.

What I am trying to say is that "good" and "bad" are subjective, partially on a personal level, partially on a society level.
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fred79
fred79


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
boob in a black box
posted February 12, 2018 06:32 PM



ok, snow it. i'm not going to continually argue over stupid snow. the entire point of this thread, was to see what you guys would do if you were god; as simple as that. but it's clear you guys would rather argue instead. this isn't the osm, and this isn't a thread about existentialism or the semantics of human quirks and quandries.

for snows sake.

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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted February 12, 2018 06:51 PM

fred79 said:

for snows sake.


Sorry Fred.

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Neraus
Neraus


Supreme Hero
Pizza Nazi
posted February 12, 2018 07:47 PM

Poor fred, it was supposed to be a creative venture and instead it became an OSM thread.
Alright, I'll elaborate on what I would do.

So, first off I would annihilate the current universe after it reached it's point of staleness, but I would have observed how events unfolded without my guidance as a way of watching a tragedy unfold. I would probably do the same if there were any alien civilizations. Now, if there was any hope for the future I would stay my hand, until someone messed up so bad that things were irreparable for everybody. Also, if there was such a disaster that wiped out all intelligent life, I'd probably reset the universe since I don't like observing animals for thousands of years or worse, look at continents eroding.

Once the current universe is done though, I would create a much smaller one, and populate it with several different intelligent species, a bit modelled on fantasy, so you know, Humans, elves and add some thing new to spice it up. I would allow all the sentient races to be able to manipulate reality as long as they're able to divorce themselves from it, so basically magic. I would offer the souls of the previous universe a chance to live in this new world, while temporarily forgetting their previous life. I would then be mostly inactive and look at them grow in this kind of environment.
Then, if they try to make me bored I'll just make someone from the old universe remember their past life, so that I'll get some kicks out of watching them scramble to understand what is nuclear theory, while they're still in a medieval state.

I would do similar things for some times, then after some universes have passed I would reveal that I made a contest in which I chose the most imaginative and most responsible souls of the various universes, then put them in charge of creating a new universe the way they want to, so basically I would create vassal quasi-deities that would create the universe in my stead, while at the same time I would free various wicked souls to create the enemies of this universe. So basically make an universe where mythology is real and there is a real clash between good and evil. The overforms would have their previous existences as inspiration for the new universe, so that there will be a good synthesis of what I did previously.
This will be the universe in which I actively manifest to guide both sides, and I will leave hints here and there to find the true purpose of all existences.
Who manages to understand the answer (and I will make it up on the spot) and reaches the writhing mass of garbage at the center of the universe will receive some kind of prize. Because I'm actually very kind.

The end of that universe would probably be some kind of Ragnarok.

If anyone preferred to remain as spectators they would be allowed to, the afterlife would actually be quite neutral, no heaven and no hell, no eternal bliss and no eternal suffering, the props would be being able to talk with me all the time and not having any needs, also every soul almost gets to be isolated from one another and they won't be able to fully recognize anyone other from themselves (That is to prevent that the soul of a man would find out that his wife's soul was the soul of his mother in another life and in another it was the soul of his archnemesis).

There would actually be no other purpose here other than to pass an eternity while finding something to keep the mind occupied, well, actually the various souls can cease to exist if they really wish to do so, after all, I could create other souls to fill in the gaps, so I'm the only one that's destined to be bored and lonely.

Essentially, there will be a point in which the various souls stay with me because of pity.
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fred79
fred79


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
boob in a black box
posted February 13, 2018 12:42 AM

no need to apologize, ohfor.

@ neraus: thanks for expanding on your original answer. your existence is interesting.

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