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JollyJoker
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posted March 30, 2025 12:38 PM |
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It will/would also change if/when the USA (or part of them) politically change into this mix of Christian fundamentalism and fascism.
The same is true, if/when the conditions for immigration change.
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blizzard
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posted March 30, 2025 04:45 PM |
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Edited by blizzard at 16:52, 30 Mar 2025.
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Do you ever talk to people outside of your own neighborhood? Trump has never at any point said or hinted at shutting down immigration. And even if he did, it would never stand a chance. He does want to tighten visa access and do more vetting. So, if successful, the US would become closer to countries like New Zealand or Norway or South Korea or Ireland or Japan or so many others in that respect. These are places that have had tight restrictions for a long time. People, generally speaking, are absolutely not going to lose interest in moving to the US. The number of people who want to move in is gargantuan compared to the number of people who can move in. So, if some people here and there change their minds because of politics and decide they don't want to move, other people will easily replace them. That isn't very many people in the first place, because the things that overwhelmingly influence where to move and where to live are jobs and relationships.
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JollyJoker
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posted March 30, 2025 05:13 PM |
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You are simplifying things massively here. But if you really want to simplify things, then there is an increased interest of the current government to only let the creme immigrate PERMANENTLY into the US. However, the more "creme" people are the more options they have, and then other factors than job and relationships come into play.
But again - we'll see how this develops.
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Salamandre
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posted March 30, 2025 05:54 PM |
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That's crazy, a country prioritizing quality immigration, who came with such a weird idea.
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blizzard
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posted March 30, 2025 07:33 PM |
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Edited by blizzard at 20:13, 30 Mar 2025.
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@JJ:
Do you consider Finland, Ireland, Mexico, South Korea, or Japan to be fascist countries? Just naming a couple examples. Is Japan currently a fascist country? Do you know anything about what the laws are like in Japan?
I'm just curious to know what other places you and your neighbors' think are fascist besides Trumpistan and Putinstan, or if those are the only two.
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JollyJoker
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posted March 30, 2025 09:07 PM |
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I have no clue what you're on about. It's obvious that every country has "immigration standards". Tht's not the problem here. What I said is, that between the HIGHER immigration standards of the actual US government and its Christian fundamentalism/fascism tendencies, its aggressive course alienating allies, its concentration on China as main opponent (and the dangers that come with it), the fateful Netanjahu connection and the looming Iran conflict, the high crime rate, the science phobia, the fixation on Agenda 2025 and a ton of other factors the USA will lose attractiveness for high-profile immigrants (because the higher-profile the immigrants are supposed to be the more options they have).
You are grabbing for straws and construct a case I never made,
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Salamandre
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posted March 31, 2025 06:37 AM |
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This is what Bernard Arnault was saying about Trump's economics attractiveness.
The flaw in your analysis is the voluntary lack of worldwide context view, you look only to America - because Trump is your target - and ignore about everywhere else. Like EU is some El Dorado of taxes, productivity, debt and immigration control, freedom of expression, opportunities and equality. So now, you say, every high profile business man will move to Europe or else because somehow US became a ripping machine.
You pass over how low we are on all those standards, and sinking day by day. The reality is : the western economies (except for Nordic tiny countries) are going bankrupt and you have to make hard decisions when you go bankrupt. What we do instead in Europe, is going for more debt to avoid responsibility and accountability.
I have no idea if Trump strategy will make things better of worse, but I am pretty sure that our current strategy - be nice and kind, don't change anything, keep talking and organize reunions for even more talk then use more loans to delay the upcoming disaster - is not going to fix anything.
Moreover, despite international property laws we are purely and simply planning snatching Russian assets, this is how desperate we are.
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JollyJoker
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posted March 31, 2025 10:37 AM |
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Salamandre said:
So now, you say, every high profile business man will move to Europe or else because somehow US became a ripping machine.
I didn't say that. Not even remotely. You really must stop putting words in other people's mouths just so you can rant against them.
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Salamandre
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posted March 31, 2025 11:01 AM |
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When you affirm that USA will lose attractiveness for high-profile immigrants - already in place or coming -, it is exactly that. A high profile is someone successful at business, generating enough money to finance economic independence, instead of struggling on tax payer assistance. The "creme".
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JollyJoker
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posted March 31, 2025 12:14 PM |
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A "high-profile" is someone intelligent with a good education. Rich people can basically live where they want, be it in the US or in Switzerland or Monaco or Liechtenstein or Luxemburg - or actually in all those. They can afford it and there is no limit to great places to live in when you are rich.
What countries need more are high-profile scientists, inventors, architects, software engineers, artists and so on, people who will make the rich even richer. If they don't let you into the country, when they check your smartphone and social accounts and find you said a bad word about Trump, more won't even try.
Incidentally, isn't it all over the news that Trump said, there were methods for seeking a third presidential term? And that Trump is really angry with Putin, but will be even more angry with Ukraine if they don't sign away their country to him this week?
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blizzard
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posted March 31, 2025 03:54 PM |
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Edited by blizzard at 16:11, 31 Mar 2025.
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This is so much detachment from reality.
You and your inner circle of friends do not reflect the world JJ. It doesn't even reflect Western Europe, but that's probably a bridge too far for you to take in. The Europe of 2008 does not exist anymore.
There are enormous numbers of college-educated people in western and southern Asia, and in Latin America who are interested in moving to the US. This was true throughout Trump's first term, throughout the Biden years, and it continues to be true now. Record numbers of Hispanics were Trump voters in 2024. It's already been the case for several decades that W. Europeans make up a small sum of US immigrants, because most of them can get decent jobs and plus they don't have kids, so there's not a lot of viable Europeans to come in the first place. The US was always going to get a very tiny number of immigrants from Denmark with or without the imperialist rhetoric over Greenland, because the Nordic countries are a speck of the world population.
Normal people do not read news articles about Trump fantasizing over a 3rd term and then decide not to move to the US. That is not how normal people usually make decisions. That's true for conservatives, moderates, and liberals.
If gun laws or healthcare or fundamentalism or "sciencephobia" was going to keep people away, then why have so many people been moving to the US for the past 100+ years? Also, with the prejudice thing, do you even realize that the vast majority of minorities in places like Germany report being harassed by the natives? Your country is very far away from being a welcoming paradise for immigrants (I get the impression you would be one such person who would harass them), and that's not even getting into the very serious issue of job opportunities and cost of living. People who want to move somewhere that they think will be better for them and their family don't have many options.
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JollyJoker
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posted March 31, 2025 06:50 PM |
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I don't know why you feel the need to offend me on a personal level - you know, you don't have to emulate your president.
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blizzard
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posted March 31, 2025 07:48 PM |
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Edited by blizzard at 20:23, 31 Mar 2025.
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If you have interpreted it as a personal attack, I apologize and that was not my intention.
You have transparently stated in this thread your own individual definition of fascism, and this would apply to many of the newcomers to your country, along with many natives. It is reasonable to assume these people have been harassed on different occasions by people who believe there are fascists running amuck in their communities.
Believing certain political leaders and political parties are literal fascists opens up another can of worms in terms of how to deal with them and what measures should be taken to remove them.
Do you believe vigilantes and/or military force should be used to remove Trump and Trump supporters? What about in Germany? Should certain people be dealt with by any means necessary? What about migrants who hold fascist views?
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JollyJoker
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posted March 31, 2025 09:26 PM |
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blizzard said:
If you have interpreted it as a personal attack, I apologize and that was not my intention.
Accepted.
blizzard said:
You have transparently stated in this thread your own individual definition of fascism, and this would apply to many of the newcomers to your country, along with many natives. It is reasonable to assume these people have been harassed on different occasions by people who believe there are fascists running amuck in their communities.
I have trouble to actually discern what you mean with this. Can you phrase differently?
blizzard said:
Believing certain political leaders and political parties are literal fascists opens up another can of worms in terms of how to deal with them and what measures should be taken to remove them.
Do you believe vigilantes and/or military force should be used to remove Trump and Trump supporters? What about in Germany? Should certain people be dealt with by any means necessary? What about migrants who hold fascist views?
Well, the problem in all the known "modern cases" is that it's a process rather than a revolution like it used to be. So it's one step after the other, really, which makes it a lot more bearable for many.
It gets dangerous, when you can't rely on elections anymore to be "fair and real". As long as elections still ARE fair and real, people can still show their displeasure, and when they don't you just live in the wrong country.
Trump wants and is going to change a lot. The truth about US history, for one thing (the Smithsonian thing); the voting laws for another. He has already made his disdain for jurisdiction clear (and doesn't care about them). Attack on the jurisdiction are a thing in many countries on the slippery slope to neo-fascism, it seems.
In any case, I don't think there is a recipe. I'm not sure France did themselves a favor by taking out Le Pen in what must be a very infuriating way for those who sympathize. If anything, it makes her a martyr. I know that Salamandre will probably be very angry about it, and be it only on principle, and I tend to agree, that it's not the right way to handle things.
In Germany, the neo-fascists got more than 20% in the recent elections; Germany is more or less divided, a majority in a big part of what has been the GDR voting for them, while the rest isn't.
The trouble is that the existance of this "danger from the right" isn't doing anything to make the other parties compromise so that they can actually act from a position of strength, and the more they haggle and squabble and offend each other, the more people turn their backs on them because they are fed up with all that BS. It's the textbook situation: More and more people are waiting for Alexander so that he may cut the Gordian Knot with his sword instead of trying to loosen it with due process.
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Salamandre
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posted April 01, 2025 10:16 AM |
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JollyJoker said:
I know that Salamandre will probably be very angry about it,
I couldn't care less. For me it is obvious that we are at the end of a dying cycle, leaving in shreds what we considered for centuries to be strong assets. A dysfunctional federal Europe, the Euro coin creating huge inflation instead of the claimed opposite, the deep state (medias, judges,financial corporations) deciding who is to praise and who isn't, nations identity falling under the hits of other strong and proud cultures, the ideological enslavement of weak peoples and so on.
Marine Le Pen wasn't the solution, she basically knelled before every needed structural challenge, thinking she will now be allowed to join the Club, and I really don't see anyone being strong, brave, smart AND RICH enough to impose a radical turnover without being instantly wrecked by the aforementioned.
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artu
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posted April 02, 2025 12:35 AM |
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Coined by us, I see the phrase “deep state” (derin devlet) has caught on.
Well, it certainly is not going to be the century of Europe. But I think you are way too pesimistic. Europe is still richer, more civilized, producing more books, art, culturel output than most places in the world. It is still better to live there than to live in the countries of those “proud” nations that you speak of.
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