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Salamandre
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posted April 05, 2025 09:14 PM |
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Eu is a giant only on paper, there are so many countries, each with different strategies and flaws, there is no way they can talk from one voice. So you have a lot of declining powers, whose only hope is manipulating others into thinking that number equals strength. A dozen countries in recession doesn't make a wealthy empire.
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JollyJoker
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posted April 05, 2025 09:57 PM |
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You have the wrong view. Europe already has declined. After WW2 there hasn't been a European "Power" that could have competed with the actual "super powers", the EU being an attempt to amass enough clout to play with the biggies.
But that's beside the point. We need to learn to work together, otherwise we'll not see 2100. If climate change isn't getting us, then we have a ton of ways, atomically, biologically, chemically, to off us.
We need CLEAN ENERGY. Because when it comes down to it, if people are equal, then everyone and every people has a right to blow as much energy as their neighbour - which is the problem, since, say, Brazil wants the same per-head energy consumption than the US.
We are all beating the same drum here.
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Salamandre
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posted April 05, 2025 10:44 PM |
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I don't disagree there. But how are you going to work with the half of the world you call Nazis, then refuse to talk to. Quite a dissonance there.
What you mean is everybody else accepting to work with you, but only on your conditions and rules, on your drums. 100 years ago it could have worked, when Europe was a leader and a light in the dark. We can't keep spitting on others, ignoring their concerns, pretending we know better what are the worldwide menaces while we got no assets in reserve to negotiate. When you are not at the negotiating table, you might end on the menu.
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JollyJoker
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posted April 05, 2025 11:11 PM |
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Well, we don't have any real influence on anyone. We can only hope to lead (in the sense of "going first") by example. We cannot keep Psychos from bringing the house down. But we cannot bow to them either.
That's why we keep to Ukraine. Putin isn't psycho-bat-snow crazy. He doesn't want to blow up everything. He's just playing us. He simply has too much to lose.
However, we can't tell others what they are supposed to do or not do because they will do whatever they want.
It's basically living in a family with just grown-up kids: you cannot tell them what to do. You can only tell them where the limit is where YOU are concerned. Like, "if you don't do your part in the household, you will have to see where you get your stuff washed and you won't eat with us".
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Salamandre
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posted April 05, 2025 11:18 PM |
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What is going in Ukraine is exactly because we didn't want to work with others, we wanted them to bow to us.
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blizzard
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posted April 05, 2025 11:20 PM |
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Edited by blizzard at 23:22, 05 Apr 2025.
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The EU could be pressuring Ukraine more into a settlement. It chooses not to. It could also send actual soldiers to Ukraine if it really wanted to. Both the UK and France have already floated the idea, and I don't know who else (I suspect Poland but I don't actually know that).
European countries just pretend to be weak, which isn't a bad tactic.
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JollyJoker
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posted April 05, 2025 11:22 PM |
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I don't think so. Not for the European part, at least.
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blizzard
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posted April 06, 2025 01:11 AM |
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Edited by blizzard at 01:12, 06 Apr 2025.
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Since you say a nuclear war will almost certainly never happen, why not send the German military into Ukraine? That would completely end any chance of Putin getting Ukraine. The Russian economy is a dump. They would not be able to outfund or outsupply you.
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Salamandre
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posted April 06, 2025 02:05 AM |
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Last time a german leader said that, we know how it ended.
On other side, remembering the 27 millions russians the germans slaughtered before, I would think an ethical stop will become obvious before committing the irreparable . What next, send german army help palestiniens against jews ?
I don't know, sometimes I wonder if people proposing such foolishness - actual german leaders - are sane of mind. They do realize that first nukes will be on them, right ?
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blizzard
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posted April 06, 2025 06:02 AM |
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Edited by blizzard at 06:04, 06 Apr 2025.
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German tanks have already been killing Russian soldiers for how long now?
This is an honest question. More than one European leader has talked about sending soldiers, and there's no doubt whatsoever it would put on ice any hope of taking Ukraine. The main thing that has stopped them is the fear of escalation, but some people are saying things are already escalated enough that we're past that point anyway.
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JollyJoker
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posted April 06, 2025 09:36 AM |
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Duh. What "German military"?
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Ghost
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posted April 06, 2025 11:50 AM |
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When JJ isn't a soldier.. Even if Germany is the strongest army in the EU without a nuclear weapons, of course.. More stronger than Nazi time.. But JJ is in OSM..  So French and English fear took a nuclear weapon, and the US spied German government, but Russia came and showed in Ukraine, etc
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Pol
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posted April 06, 2025 12:06 PM |
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Edited by Pol at 12:07, 06 Apr 2025.
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Salamandre said:
Last time a german leader said that, we know how it ended.
On other side, remembering the 27 millions russians the germans slaughtered before, I would think an ethical stop will become obvious before committing the irreparable . What next, send german army help palestiniens against jews ?
I don't know, sometimes I wonder if people proposing such foolishness - actual german leaders - are sane of mind. They do realize that first nukes will be on them, right ?
Nope 27mil dead russians and probably just a communist myth. Because this number is just one of the estimate. Mostly you will hear 24mil but the problem with it, that true numbers are probably much lower, many assume 14-17mil. Obviously Stalin was so bold to count in even russian people who he ordered to kill.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties_of_the_Soviet_Union
Historically speaking, operation Barbarossa started a few days before Stalin launched his own invasion in Germany direction. And overshocked Stalin is probably one of reasons, why the losses were so high. Ruthless and not caring about human lives he was always.
Calculating all the losses, the biggest portion is ofc on the side of Europe powers including allies, not counting Germany and his allies in. (Sidenote, even for Holodomor which caused Stalin on Ukrajine, this goes like 5-7mil. But "holodomor was happening" in other parts of russian influenced sphere repeatedly, final numbers are likely much higher, within range 10-20mil.)
Just in China the losses were about 50mil, which is much higher number.
[!]So, Stalin calculated and had claimed a pure victory in WW2, starting on the same side like Hitler and ending on its own.
Without doubt, leaking the secret of nuclear weapons to SSSR was a fatal "West" mistake and went to following stalemate.
Back to the present, there will be no nukes, even without USA support. EU is strong enough to deter such foolish ideas even in current weakened shape.
What it lacks, it's a real army and will to act united. So, it should quickly do something about these two.
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Salamandre
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posted April 06, 2025 12:36 PM |
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What for, the comment ? The point was the reiteration of sending German military in Russia, after what happened by the past. To which you reply "China lost more", EU allied "lost more" (comparing the casualties of 40 countries combined vs one) and Russians killed themselves because they don't care so it doesn't matter, let's go again.
WW2 casualties by country
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blizzard
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posted April 06, 2025 03:00 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Duh. What "German military"?
The one that's one of the best equipped in the world. That one.
There's well over a million active military personal in "weak" W Europe. If a few key players made a decision, Ukraine would instantly be safe and secure once they arrive.
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JollyJoker
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posted April 06, 2025 03:41 PM |
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German Bundeswehr, nominally 180.000 strong, simply isn't combat ready. Stuff doesn't work, everything is lacking. Somewhere along the lines combat readineyy was lost.
Second, we cannot just decide to send troops anywhere. The parliament must give the ok.
And third I'm pretty curious what makes you say that Ukraine was safe and sound when the EU would send troops into Ukraine.
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blizzard
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posted April 06, 2025 03:54 PM |
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Edited by blizzard at 15:56, 06 Apr 2025.
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UK, France, and Italy are all in the top 10 most powerful militaries in the world. Germany is just a hair behind. It's the 4th strongest in Europe.
Manufacturing wise, W Europe dwarves Russia.
If the vote went through, these countries could send a force to hold Ukraine. Russia would stand zero chance of advancing.
It's not a matter of incapability. It's just the risk of it. They're afraid of a Russia that feels desperate.
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Salamandre
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posted April 06, 2025 04:17 PM |
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Eu countries have professional and specialized armies, not one which could stand in an high intensity conflict like in Ukraine. France, for example, has one week of ammo, based on what Ukraine uses right now. After that, is over.
Then we ignore what China will do if EU stockpiles on Russia, without serious reason. Russia didn't attack EU, didn't attack NATO. Then Russia could just wipe out our forces with nukes, without fearing nuclear retaliation, as Ukraine isn't in NATO.
All this is a wish list, there is a lot of unknown you just don't consider in the equation.
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Galaad
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posted April 06, 2025 04:25 PM |
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blizzard said:
German tanks have already been killing Russian soldiers for how long now?
This is an honest question. More than one European leader has talked about sending soldiers, and there's no doubt whatsoever it would put on ice any hope of taking Ukraine. The main thing that has stopped them is the fear of escalation, but some people are saying things are already escalated enough that we're past that point anyway.
Things could honestly get much worse than they are now. We're still at a point where a full-scale war between the EU and Russia can be avoided — and I believe that would be for the best.
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Drakon-Deus
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posted April 06, 2025 04:42 PM |
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Galaad said:
We're still at a point where a full-scale war between the EU and Russia can be avoided — and I believe that would be for the best.
I agree, unfortunately it seems that most EU leaders do not have peace in mind. They would rather see the conflict go on.
I bet that a politician in Romania that wants peace in Ukraine would be called a Russian agent and arrested. Oh, wait. Already happened. 
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