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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 02, 2022 02:34 PM |
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It's also factually wrong. Their property is still their property. It's just their access to it that has been frozen/blocked. We are not talking disposession here.
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted May 02, 2022 02:38 PM |
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You cannot be a rich man and a good man in the same time (c)
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted May 02, 2022 03:34 PM |
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I'm not fond of Navalny and don't want to talk too much about him here, but I'm really surprised how much you believe in Russian propaganda. It's pretty much obvious that the guy was poisoned by FSB and then convicted for the case for which the European Court of Human Rights ruled he was unfairly sentenced.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted May 02, 2022 04:00 PM |
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What you say is, no matter what, Russians are always wrong.
Navalny is poisoned but allowed to leave Russia so poison is detected in Germany - how surprising, makes a lot of sense.
As far as I know, Navalny is in prison because he broke his home arrest to attend a rally - as at first he got suspended sentence. Which is the standard procedure, we had in France a very influential and powerful politician - Patrick Balkani, which was sent to prison last month, for exactly same reasons.
Case closed.
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Gandalf196
Disgraceful
Supreme Hero
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posted May 02, 2022 04:03 PM |
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I was the one to start this topic, but I've lost the track so far
Could someone summarize the opinions of HC members for me 
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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted May 02, 2022 04:14 PM |
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Edited by Ben80 at 16:16, 02 May 2022.
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RerryR said:
I would say quite the opposite is true. Here is what the rest of the world thinks:
"UN General Assembly demands Russia to stop its offensive in Ukraine, voting 141 to five with 35 abstentions."
Here you need to understand that no country wants to go against the global economic system and bear the costs. That's when the world is finally divided into several independent currency zones - then another matter. So if a country abstained, consider that it voted for Russia.
And many of those who voted against Russia did so involuntarily.
RerryR said:
Looks like Putin's feeling clever if he steals a tractor or two, but I think he has already realized in what snow he has maneuvered himself.
We have a lot of things of our own - and tractors, and planes, and much more. The nuclear industry in Russia is one of the best in the world (and this is already high technology available to a few).
If we are not good at something, it usually means that we are not interested in it. For example, it was interesting for us to go into space - we went out, the first in the world (Gagarin).
In the USSR in 1968, for the first time in the world, a passenger supersonic aircraft, the Tu-144, flew before the European Concorde.
Of course, the current Russian system is corrupt and this must be fought. But as far as I know, there is also a lot of corruption in Europe and the USA.
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purerogue
Known Hero
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posted May 02, 2022 05:34 PM |
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Gandalf196 said:
Could someone summarize the opinions of HC members for me
no opinion is best opinion
then you get attacked for being Switzerland and only caring about money
think about it, would you rather be 'right' about something, or would you rather have money
then you just haven't seen something you wanted, something so beautiful you no longer care about right/wrong
just my personal recent experience
(I've had an opinion long enough, I now proclaim I am a free man )
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baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted May 02, 2022 06:46 PM |
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This is Russia. Ben80 gives you a picture of the wild dull aggressive hypocritical mind there. Thanks to him, you have live what I would not have explained to you for 100 years. It is a concept included in evil. Like the Nazis. Hitler meant well. Russia is good.
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RerryR
Promising
Supreme Hero
Researching Magic
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posted May 02, 2022 08:21 PM |
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Salamandre said:
What you say is, no matter what, Russians are always wrong.
Navalny is poisoned but allowed to leave Russia so poison is detected in Germany - how surprising, makes a lot of sense.
As far as I know, Navalny is in prison because he broke his home arrest to attend a rally - as at first he got suspended sentence.
....
Case closed.
"Case closed" sorry but this is a low standard for you and I think you do know better! Navalny is in prison because he is against Putin, as are many other oppositionals.
The flight to Germany most likely saved his life. As you write it, it sounds like what happened would have been normal.
I don't want to start a discussion here, but this had to be said.
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted May 02, 2022 08:43 PM |
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The saddest part in all this mayhem is human lives being lost everyday. I understand that people who rule countries have different philosophies. I doubt that a living man can really change history. Though it's always a by-product of uncontrollable enrichment. This war is also war of minds. I prefer rulers which think about their people, not about their own prosperity on this planet. Actually, a ruler should be a representative of God on Earth, like it was before, but not a cruel and voracious one, but one who will make sure people have money for basic stuff. I repeat myself, a happy man is a reliable brick in the wall of the whole country.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted May 02, 2022 08:46 PM |
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What was Navalny polled score at elections? 4%. I'm sure it scared the snow out of Putin, thus he failed to correctly poison him but then sent him anyway in Germany, which, as you said, saved his life.
Medias use Navalny as a Trojan horse. When people will wake up and do correct math, it just doesn't sum up.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 02, 2022 08:59 PM |
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Wait, what? "Polled score"? He was excluded from the elections in June 2017, while the election was held 9 months after that.
He was excluded because of a new law, Putin had brought in while Navalny was on trial.
Polled score? Nah.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted May 02, 2022 09:01 PM |
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 02, 2022 09:31 PM |
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So from polls in February 2017, 13 months from the elections, where he got .5% definite votes and 4.2 possible votes, within two months, in April 2017, 11 months from the elections, he went up to 4% definite and 14% possible votes - and that with the same "rate of knowledge" of 55% knowing of him.
I think that paints a pretty clear picture of someone up and coming, especially considering that there were 11 months time for campaigning and making himself known to the other 45%.
So your "4%" are painting a very incorrect picture.
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Gandalf196
Disgraceful
Supreme Hero
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posted May 02, 2022 09:43 PM |
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted May 02, 2022 09:53 PM |
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I don't say he would have stayed at 4%, but that 4% of positive opinions is a ridiculous pretext to physically eliminate a political opponent - when you do 75%, fail, then proceed to do the only thing which could keep him alive, allow travel in a hospital abroad.
Then suspend his sentence, so only Navalny being a complete idiot and break the rules sent him in prison.
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted May 02, 2022 10:10 PM |
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Edited by AlexSpl at 22:18, 02 May 2022.
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He looks like a sage. But the real sage would have said - you have everything, why do you need more? Then rulers of this world would have gathered and answered - how we can know for sure if we have everything? Maybe there is something in this world we'd want to have but we don't know of it. Then the sage answered - you can have everything in this world only then when you will become everything. Why do you even want to have everything if you are bearing a yoke on your necks? - We don't think so, we are rulers, it's them who are bearing a yoke, they answered. Don't you think, sage, we are stupid rulers. We want to live it to the fullest, and dare not anyone stand on our way to what we think is appropriate to the humanity. We know better than you, sage. Then the sage frowned, then smiled, then frowned again. You call yourselves Gods on Earth, you have that much money you even don't need people around you to live!! - But we do need them! We are parasites and we are proud of it, sage! It's their word for us, but we know that we are the Chosen ones, who ate Snickers while others ate potatoes! We are even called by commoners the Elite (actually, many of them are smarter than us, but who is richer, tell me, sage?) Then the sage bowed down and threw to their feet a small stone - if it were made from pure gold shouldn't you bend down to pick it up? And then went to mind  his own business.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 03, 2022 08:36 AM |
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Salamandre said:
I don't say he would have stayed at 4%, but that 4% of positive opinions is a ridiculous pretext to physically eliminate a political opponent - when you do 75%, fail, then proceed to do the only thing which could keep him alive, allow travel in a hospital abroad.
Then suspend his sentence, so only Navalny being a complete idiot and break the rules sent him in prison.
The 4% "positive opinion/trust" is irrelevant because we talk about a politician in an election. In Russia. Who has trust in ANY politician, whether you vote for them or not? Ask yourself how many people would answer yes to TRUST in Macron or Le Pen, their voters percentage notwithstanding.
It's more the 14% of those who MIGHT vote him that are interesting as opposed to the 4% 2 months earlier.
Anyway, a poll a year before an election doesn't say anything at all.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted May 03, 2022 11:44 AM |
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Edited by ihor at 11:46, 03 May 2022.
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Also, Sal, you're saying that it doesn't sum up, but it actually sums up really well into the bigger picture.
Imagine you're a dictator and you plan a war. How do you prepare?
1. Military Strength.
You need to modernize your army, so you have a 10 year program to get new equipment.
2. Financial Reserves.
You put aside some money from the resources you sell so you have a backup in case of sanctions or money to continue your operations.
3. Control over Media.
You use your state media as propaganda tool internally and abroad, while you restrict
4. Purges of Internal Opposition
You don't want any internal problems, any Stop War stuff, so basically, you need to get rid of any real opposition.
---
Now let's stop at that last step and analyze that in detail.
Is there real parliamentary opposition in Russia? I don't think so. For example all parties except communist party voted to allow Putin 3rd (and 4th) presidential term when Constitution was updated 2 years ago. Then also communist party was often considered "assisting" opposition.
Look at the recent anti-Putin protests. You can see that most of them were supported by Navalny, for some of them Navalny was the MAIN reason of the protests. I don't know if Putin is scared of Navalny or not, but it's quite obvious that he considers Navalny his enemy.
Now look at some of his YouTube videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrwlk7_GF9g&t=1s - 45 million views
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipAnwilMncI - 123 million views
Is that dangerous? You think you've got full control of media in your country, but there are millions views in YouTube. Also, there's a demographical shift in Russia. The level of support of Navalny amongst younger people is higher which is also strategically a bad sign for Putin.
Furthermore, since Soviet times there were lots of examples of politically motivated court sentences for much lesser doings. For example Magnitsky. So your argument that the poll rating is 4% and there's no motive to assassinate or imprison Navalny is really weak.
---
Now, about the poisoning case. What's your version? That he was not poisoned at all? Or that he was poisoned by somebody else? Who else could use Novichok? You seem to be confused why he was allowed to get out of the country. Well, that's easy. What if the goal of the operation was to assassinate Navalny, but the idea was to simulate heart attack or something natural (basically what Novichok does). Why simulate? To avoid any sanctions for assassination. So when the operation failed, what are the options? Either let him go or forbid going abroad. Both options are not great. Well, because if you forbid for no reason, then there's no way you simulate natural death. So they decided to let him go. Sums up now?
There are plenty of evidence to support that version. For example confirmed presence of Novichok by labs in Europe. Look also for example at the Bellingcat investigation. Why would international journalists lie in this case? There are also evidence of the same group of FSB officers flying the same planes as Navalny for years. There were eventually even discovered other successful assassinations of opposition figures, which were also tracked. In other words there are so much evidence that I don't know if it's even possible to falsify all of that.
On the other hand, it seems that you're just repeating what Russian officials say, basically opposing all Western governments, without any facts, ignoring all discovered facts and on the sole assumption that the version doesn't look probable. I really don't understand that.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted May 03, 2022 01:11 PM |
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What facts,I don't see any in your comment. Do you know what fact means? Dozens of presumptions don't make a fact.
Anyone trying to accuse Russia will use a russian poison and naturally anyone trying to accuse anything BUT Russia will not use a russian poison. Is FSB that amateurish?
Views on Youtube means nothing, I also watched Navalny videos several times, to see what's about, does that mean I believe or support his theories? Also do you have links to polls showing Navalny has a serious support from young people or just talking on their behalf?
I have several russian students every year in my class, reporting Navalny being perceived as a corrupted crook and big mouth. Are they all Putin's agents and brainwashed?
ihor said:
Why would international journalists lie in this case?
Because US wants Russia out of the game, and this is what they always did. We were hammered with the hoax of Trump/Russia collusion for 4 full years. During French election, medias constantly pointed to collusion with Russia, with no other proofs that simplistic assumptions like yours. Russia became the scapegoat when disconnected elites turn a deaf ear to any protests and attempts of the working class to change the system at his core.
It rains outside, it's Putin's fault.
ihor said:
it seems that you're just repeating what Russian officials say, basically opposing all Western governments
I have no idea what Russian officials say, I never listened to any. But I hear what a majority of independent medias say, then I learned quite a few things over years, like when all official medias are unanimous on such complex and controversial phenomenons as wars and geopolitical conflicts, it sounds fishy and will be almost always debunked later.
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