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privatehudson
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posted April 15, 2003 06:02 PM |
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I do try, sometimes I even suceed 
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted April 15, 2003 06:42 PM |
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<blank look>
Uh, I don't get it....
(Peacemaker AKA slow-on-the-uptake)
P.S. feel free to e-mail me with an explanation PH if you think pubication of the explanation would be too embarassing...
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privatehudson
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posted April 15, 2003 07:44 PM |
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*mutters under breath* AMERICANS! *grumbles*
A man after your heart....
Like the aztec priests of old.... who had a particularly nice habit of ripping captive enemies hearts out as sacrificial offerings.........
So, that member is like the aztecs.. after your heart 
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted April 15, 2003 08:52 PM |
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*nods & grins sheepisly*
Yes hun, I quietly stepped aside with Lith and had him explain it to me.... 
*nods & grins again*
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Wolfman
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posted April 15, 2003 11:05 PM |
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I got it! and it was funny, without the explaination.
Seems to be a string of short posts...
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privatehudson
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posted April 15, 2003 11:47 PM |
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Did I just hear the news right? Did american soldiers fire on a crowd in Mosul? *mouth drops open in shock*
From what little I caught of the passing news, the early reports are that 10 are dead, and 30 are wounded, included children. The news said that the crowd had gathered to protest (missed what about, parents talking damnit!) and began throwing stones at american troops, when someone fired on the americans. After firing a warning shot into the air and the fire continuing they fired back, perhaps some into the crowd given the nature of the casualties and remarks from local.
The americans have said they were fired upon from a building by snipers from behind and above the crowd and were merely responding to a threat. An iraqui civilian present was interviewed as saying that he felt the american soldiers acted without care for civilian lives. (note I am not saying they did, but that was the only civilian interviewed that I saw)
I know I said a crack-down, but please, this has haunting similarities to the events in NI at bloody sunday that the british army learnt so much from for future crowd control situations there. I sincerely hope this is a one-off, but with the british maintaining their original strike force troops (marines, paras, heavy tanks etc) rather than their veteran units from NI like the regular infantry and light armour it seems possible further occurences are likely as the troops (certainly the british ones, and probably american too) are not those trained for such issues.
Hopefully in time more info will become available on websites as I couldn't find any at the moment.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted April 15, 2003 11:51 PM |
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Thanks for the update PH. This is terrible news. Just terrible. Try and keep us posted.
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Wolfman
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posted April 16, 2003 12:01 AM |
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Sounds like the Boston Massacre. Surely PH remembers that.
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privatehudson
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posted April 16, 2003 12:08 AM |
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Not specifically frankly, not my period of history to study to be honest. Do you mean the boston tea party? I have heard there was a "troops firing on crowd" incident in boston some years/months prior to that when there was protests/riots (depending on which side you read naturally) there, but it's not something I know much about.
If you mean that it sounds like an occaision when british soldiers did the same, I'd say Bloody Sunday was more accurate* and that was a british cock-up, strangely enough with Paras. We pulled the paras out of NI soon afterwards as we realised they were'nt suited to such operations.......
Now though we seem to have forgotten what we learnt......
*Irish protest march blocked by the troops of the parachute regiment. Though there is some confusion as to the exact nature and timing of the events it is known that there was some stones thrown at the paras, shots fired were also fired at them. They reacted badly, firing into buildings and the crowd, even shooting dead a priest tending to wounded.
And that's why we learnt not to send strike troops to NI. Their highly developed training meant they have a much higher tendency to react in extreme ways, such as then.
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Wolfman
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posted April 16, 2003 01:01 AM |
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I know what I am talking about
A little history for PH then...
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The Bloody Massacre
On a chilly night in the snow-covered streets of Boston, Edward Archbald, a young barber's apprentice, shouted an insult at a British sentry on duty in front of the Customs House. The soldier struck the boy with the butt of his rifle. Archbald ran off, but returned with a group of young boys, who John Adams would later describe as "a motley rabble of saucy boys." The unruly youths taunted the British sentries and threw iced snow balls. Eventually, adults joined the boys, carrying sticks and clubs and jeering at the "lobster backs." The months of tension between soldier and civilian, England and colony, was about to erupt. Church bells rang, a usual signal for fire, but this time only served to bring more civilians into the streets. "Cowards, cowardly rascals" the mob shouted as they pressed closer to the terrified sentries, who were well aware that a mere 400 solders were quartered in a town with a population of 16,000 well-armed inhabitants.
The surging crowd relentlessly continued their harassment — "You dare not fire; fire, you cowards" — as the terrified and enraged British soldiers readied their muskets. No one knows if an order to fire was ever given, but a shot rang out. In the crowd, Crispus Attucks, a former slave, lay dead. More shots echoed in the narrow streets of Boston. Three more civilians were shot down and six others wounded (a fifth victim died four days later).
Paul Revere's engraving was a handy bit of propaganda. He did not witness the event, but his engraving shows British soldiers lined up in formation. This depiction was not accurate. The night was more a moment of confusion, disorganization and high emotion rather than an exercise of military precision. In Revere's engraving, the snow is gone and there is a bright blue sky, although a quarter moon does give the impression that the event occurred at night. The sign over the Customs House reads "Butcher's Hall" and leaves no room for misinterpretation. Crispus Attucks, who has been called the first person to die in the War for Independence, is white.
Paul Revere made the famous engraving, but the drawing was done by Harry Pelham who later wrote: ... I thought I had entrusted it [the drawing] in the hands of a person who had more regard to the dictates of Honour and Justice than to take the undue advantage you have done of the Confidence and Trust I reposed in you. But I find I was mistaken ...
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The Boston Massacre
A later painting of the Boston Massacre corrects some of the inaccuracies of the Revere-Pelham engraving. The event is portrayed as taking place at night, which it did, and unlike the Revere-Pelham version soldiers are not lined up in military formation. Also, Crispus Attucks, the first victim of the massacre, is correctly represented as a black man.
The artist J.E. Taylor painted this picture
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[img]http://www.geocities.com/hc_wolfman/BM3.jpg[img]
Hutchinson and Adams at the Crossroads of History
Repeal of the Stamp Act was greeted with jubilation and celebration throughout the colonies. But one citizen secretly wished the onerous British tax had remained in place. Without the tax to continually pick their pockets, Samuel Adams feared the colonists would gladly resume business as usual with England. As Adams said, people were "mad with loyalty." But as fortune would have it, Parliament again helped the revolutionary's cause by enacting the Declaratory Act, which allowed Parliament to enact laws for the 13 colonies "in all cases whatsoever." With the help of Samuel Adams' pen and tongue, the fire was lit again. The tragedy of the Boston Massacre assured that turning back was not an option.
Adams' most famous role in the Boston Massacre was his confrontation with Governor Hutchinson (represented in this painting) during which he demanded the removal of the British troops from Boston. Hutchinson replied to Adams that he only had the power to remove one regiment; Adams' eyes narrowed as he uttered the famous line, "Both regiments or none!" The implication was clear: If the troops were not removed, more blood would flow in the streets.
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there you go
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privatehudson
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posted April 16, 2003 01:31 AM |
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Yes, I thought so, I'd read something of it a while back in an article by an historian (Tom Fleming) on the 13 ways britain could have won the revolution. Basically it argued that had Sam Adams got his way his confrontational attitude could have lead to the British being justified in restoring order to Boston through the use of force, sending more troops, and therefore being more likely to prevent such events as the boston tea party. Though an extreme measure, if the actions of Sam Adams and his allies ruled Boston, then moderates amongst the colonies could understand the use of troops to prevent anarchy.
Though I knew the general stuff, I didn't want to state what little I knew as, like I said, I mainly concentrate on other periods and what little I know of the revolution is largely in passing, so I was aware of what you were talking about.
Tom Fleming only mentions a few other things I didn't see you mention, so I'll add them here if I may. He mentions that somebody had thrown a club at one of the soldiers just prior to the fighting. He also argues that Sam Adams orchastrated the riot to force the british to withdraw their troops as he was known for extreme actions and suggestions (just prior to lexington his suggestion to remove the some 4,500 troops in boston was to launch an all out assault on them! Something the moderate colonials would never have accepted).
He also mentions that Sam Adams was quite happy with the result as such as now the Soldiers were tried for murder and he foresaw either the British intervening (therefore destroying american court power) or loosing badly. Sam knew no colonial lawyer would defend the soldiers because they'd fear their lives and houses from the mob. Ironically it was John Adams (cousin of sam!) who defended them and managed to free them on a plea of self defence.
Anyway, precisely what this shows in a modern day Iraq situation, other than the british also being capable of it (hang on did I not just point that out with a more recent example?) is anyone's guess. Nice piece of info though.
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Peacemaker
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posted April 16, 2003 02:08 AM |
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WOLFMAN --
Where're you cutting and pasting from, young man???
<wink>
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DoddTheSlayer
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posted April 16, 2003 02:14 AM |
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I wander if there will soon be a thread called " Attack Syria"
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Wolfman
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posted April 16, 2003 02:24 AM |
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The discovery channel my dear Peacemaker.
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privatehudson
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posted April 16, 2003 02:59 AM |
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Bah so I know more off the top of my head than you? *shocked*
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Wolfman
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posted April 16, 2003 03:08 AM |
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No, that isn't it, if I had just told you what I know, you would ask for links or proof of some sort. So I just cut the time down, friend.
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TonyJT2471
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posted April 16, 2003 10:07 AM |
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Sad
Quote:
Thanks for the update PH. This is terrible news. Just terrible. Try and keep us posted.
This is why we don't want to leave our soldiers in Iraq, they are not trained for policing. I'm sure I would've been frightened if someone was shooting at me and would have fired back. This was obviously some supporters of Saddam using innocents as sheilds. Shame on them for doing that. This is a common practice of theirs, disgusting as it is.
As far as the Boston Massacre and Bloody Sunday go, these people are/were considered fighting for independence from what was/is their own unrepresentive government, and they were not firing at soldiers with automatic weapons and rifles.
Let's hope this never happens again and our soldiers come home soon.
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privatehudson
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posted April 16, 2003 10:34 AM |
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I would just like to correct one of Tony's statements. In Bloody Sunday it pretty much HAS been established that the British were sniped at by members of the IRA. Whilst I do agree we british have no real claim to NI to represent the massacre of bloody sunday as completely without prior provocation from the IRA is unfair. NI is a much more complicated afair than a simple catholics being denied their rights issue.
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privatehudson
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posted April 16, 2003 01:28 PM |
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And as an addition to my earlier post about shootings in Mosul, the Daily Mirror reported this today:
At least 10 people were shot dead and up to 100 wounded yesterday at an anti-us protest in Iraq.
Witnesses claimed american troops opened fire on crowds who reacted angrily to a speech by the northern city's new governor, Mashaan al-Juburi.
He told them to co-operate with the USA, who would bring democracy. One witness said troops started shooting after the crowd surged forward and children threw stones.
America's Brigadier General Vincent Brooks said he had no details of the incident.
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TonyJT2471
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posted April 16, 2003 02:06 PM |
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This just in
Thousands of Iraqi's are being slaughtered by the second! The U.S. forces have been shooting at random civilians for target practice as the war goes on. No one can stop them! They are bloodthirsty animals bent on genocide of Iraqi people. They are already posting stolen goods from the many houses they have raided all over the country of Iraq to be sold on E-Bay. Reports indicate a new pipeline has been laid from Baghdad directly to New York to supply the oil that American forces invaded Iraq for to fuel baby-torturing death camps. In other news, it appears as though America has hands down approved a bill that supplies Isreal with 1,000 nuclear weapons that are to be launched at every Arab city within 28 days. Coalition forces are ordered to shoot anyone who looks at them "funny" or yells "kinda loud" at them or around them. The U.S. is now going to take over the U.N. and appoint ex-Army generals to represent every nation listed in the Charter. Today, the good leader of North Korea has taken a stance against the U.S.-led unprovoked agression against his humble and just leadership by joining the European Union.
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